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<p>I mean AfriNIC members (resource holders).<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/10/2020 3:21 am, Owen DeLong
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:689ECF55-DBA6-4BC6-A769-3B9E682B2239@delong.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
When you say “members” do you mean working group members,
community members, or AfriNIC members?
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Owen</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 3, 2020, at 5:26 AM, Daniel Yakmut via
RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Dear Marcus,
<div dir="auto" class="">When I say a community I am not
referring to individual. But the generality of the
environment. I don't want to go to specifics. But I
know there is a mutual suspicion btw francophonie and
anglophones within the AfriNIC region. It could be my
perception, but it exist.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Hence, there is always a 'bloc
war" which of course has never been helpful.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Going back to the issue of
voting I am not comfortable with any change to the
current method. Either consensus or ranked voting.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I have my different perception,
that is - we can restrict voting to only members. Let
us see how we fare on that. But if we want community
participation, the inherent issues I raised of
selfishness and rancour must be address.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Simply</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Daniel</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sep 3, 2020 1:09 PM, "Marcus
K. G. Adomey" <<a href="mailto:madomey@hotmail.com"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">madomey@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution" class="">
<blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> Hi
Daniel
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You stated and I will quote your
previous email that;</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">“In AfriNIC there is a significant
distrust and selfishness within the community”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Now, you are saying that you did
not call anybody selfish, thereby changing the
tune? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You are also stating that the
“proposal for cochairs is not talking of
ranked voting, but consensus” yet the proposal
has both and it indicated that, if the
consensus approach fails then the working
group votes using the ranked based voting
process also knows as IRV. The process seems
clear.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Please ask questions or point what
is not clear. Relevant text from the draft
proposal may be examined and in particular the
ranked voting process needs be included. You
can also make suggestions or propose text</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best Regards,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Marcus<br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <br
class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <br
class="">
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%"
class="">
<div id="m_2023804060664899699divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr" class=""><font
style="font-size:11pt" class=""
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b class="">From:</b>
Daniel Yakmut via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, September
2, 2020 7:00 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> ALAIN AINA <<a
href="mailto:aalain@trstech.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">aalain@trstech.net</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b> rpd >> AfriNIC
Resource Policy <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
<div class="elided-text"><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy
Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG)
Guidelines and Procedures</div>
</font>
<div class=""> </div>
</div>
<div class="elided-text">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Hi Alain,
<div dir="auto" class="">I did not call
any person selfish on the matter of the
elections of co-chair. I am expressing
an opinion that we maintain the status
quo with elections.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">The proposal for
the co-chair is not talking of ranked
voting, but consensus which I consider a
very difficult choice.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">So my opinion on
this matter is still keeping the old
order.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Simply</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Daniel</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">On Sep 2, 2020 7:36 PM,
"ALAIN AINA via RPD" <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution" class="">
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex" class=""> Hi
Daniel, <br class="">
<br class="">
I could not refrain from reacting to
your statement below.<br class="">
<br class="">
I am very surprised by how you painted
AFRINIC compared to RIPE and it
seriously worried me. I urge you to
please provide the evidences of your
claims.<br class="">
<br class="">
Since when did the selfishness start?
Who are the actors? What are people
being selfish about?<br class="">
<br class="">
The PDP is open to anyone to
participate and is designed to
accommodate all, irrespective of their
origin, affiliation, interests,
behaviours etc... by separating roles,
imposing transparency, openness.. to
prevent and mitigate abuses.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Are we missing something?<br class="">
<br class="">
So far, you have not proposed anything
to address your concerns other that
indirectly opposing an improvement for
an open and transparent process of
appointing cochairs based on merits
and consensus ( election by consensus
or ranked-choice vote) by the WG.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<br class="">
<br class="">
—Alain<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
> On 1 Sep 2020, at 05:57, Daniel
Yakmut via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
> <br class="">
> I strongly agree with the salient
issues raised here by Owen. I will add
that RIPE is able to achieve cohesion
because significantly there is
selflessness in the community.<br
class="">
> <br class="">
> In AfriNIC there is a significant
distrust and selfishness within the
community. Hence, it is important we
stick to an election procedure that is
partially workable and acceptable.
Again, an attempt to radically alter
the procedure in such a fractious
community can be disastrous.<br
class="">
> <br class="">
> Simply<br class="">
> Daniel and<br class="">
> <br class="">
> On Aug 31, 2020 5:53 PM, "Owen
DeLong" <<a
href="mailto:owen@delong.com"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">owen@delong.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
> I am the one who said it would
not work in Africa and that the
discussions in Africa are both more
fractious and more drama-prone than in
RIPE. While this may be an
uncomfortable truth, I believe that it
is a measurable and documented fact.<br
class="">
> <br class="">
> Note that ranked voting is _NOT_
election by consensus at least not as
practiced in RIPE and touted by
Marcus. Ranked voting is a system of
election by vote. It is an alternative
to first past the post and I support
the idea of Ranked voting.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> One could argue that the end
result of ranked voting is likely to
be consistent with the end result of
election by consensus _IF_ a consensus
can be reliably achieved within the
body of voters in question.<br
class="">
> <br class="">
> However, ranked choice voting is
a kind of mathematically forced
consensus and quite different from
consensus voting as practiced in RIPE
working groups. If the authors wish to
modify their proposal to suggest a
ranked-choice voting ballot, then I
would not have a problem with that
aspect of the proposal. That’s not
what the current language calls for.<br
class="">
> <br class="">
> As I pointed out earlier, in
RIPE, as long as the consensus has no
controversy, it remains easy, but the
RIPE solution in case consensus cannot
be achieved in the working group is
for the RIPE chair to simply decide
and there is no appeal or check and
balance on his decision.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> To be honest, I’m not wild about
that process in the RIPE region, but I
would find it significantly more
abberent in AFRINIC for the following
reasons:<br class="">
> <br class="">
> 1. AFRINIC co-chair
elections have a history of being
significantly<br class="">
> more controversial
than RIPE. As such, the fallback
process which<br class="">
> is almost never
used in RIPE would likely be far more
common in<br class="">
> AFRINIC. (I suspect
that if the fallback process in RIPE
were to<br class="">
> see significant
usage, its shortcomings would rapidly
lead to a<br class="">
> more
community-oriented approach to
co-chair elections).<br class="">
> <br class="">
> 2. The RIPE chair
generally enjoys a more widespread and
higher level<br class="">
> of community trust
than is generally granted to the
various AFRINIC<br class="">
> elected leadership
by the AFRINIC community.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Like it or not, these differences
between the communities in the various
regions do exist and they do impact
the ability to successfully use a
particular mechanism for conducting
elections. IMHO, the paradigm used in
the RIPE region is far from ideal even
for RIPE, but it works because the
RIPE community is surprisingly
cohesive and the amount of controversy
tends to be significantly less than in
AFRINIC.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Owen<br class="">
> <br class="">
> <br class="">
>> On Aug 30, 2020, at 7:33 AM,
Fernando Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> I did not say such thing
about Africa, please don't make up
stuff.<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> I said very clearly elections
by consensus are not good anywhere.
Why make up stuff to support your
argument ?<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> It is exactly the opposite.
"Election" by consensus leaves a great
margin for subjectivity and for fraud
while election by vote eliminates any
subjectivity in the process if the
process is auditable.<br class="">
>> This is how it's done in many
other places and work as expected,
without margin for disputes.<br
class="">
>> Why have a type of "election"
that can only serve for the propose of
margin for fraud and more disputes
than the current ones ?<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> In my view the only fear of
election by vote is from those who may
not have them.<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> Fernando<br class="">
>> <br class="">
>> On 30/08/2020 10:02, Arnaud
AMELINA wrote:<br class="">
>>> La seule personne qui se
répète c'est belle et bien toi
Fernando. Tu semble dire qu'en Afrique
on est pas capable de gérer une
élection par consensus approximatif
alors que d'autres régions le font et
que c'est utopique, c'est un rêve,
etc., pour ton information il existe
bel et bien une forme d'élection qui
s'apparente à une élection par
consensus approximatif merci de suivre
le lien suivant : <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr
class="">Ranked_voting</a>. Tu es
le seul à vouloir exiger d'aller vers
une élection direct, quand on sait
tout ce que ça comporte moyen d'abus.
<br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> Cordialement <br
class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> Arnaud <br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> Le sam. 29 août 2020 à
17:28, Fernando Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit :<br class="">
>>> You must be joking with
it or trying to make tricks and I am
having a serious discussion.<br
class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> I already answered your
question very clearly in the previous
message very clearly. If you wish to
discuss it in a serious way please go
straight to the point.<br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> Fernando<br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> <br class="">
>>> On 29/08/2020 14:21,
Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:<br class="">
>>>> Hi Fernando,<br
class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> Let me not get
involve at this stage in the
discussions about which model of
election is good or bad for the PDPWG.<br
class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> You have not answered
my question. I am posting it again.<br
class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> I would like to find
out whether you agree that the
election by consent is used by working
groups in RIPE region?<br class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> Please do justice to
it.<br class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> Thanks<br class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> Marcus<br class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> From: Fernando
Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
>>>> Sent: Saturday,
August 29, 2020 2:29 PM<br class="">
>>>> To: <a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br
class="">
>>>> Subject: Re: [rpd]
Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group
(WG) Guidelines and Procedures<br
class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> Seems the authors are
actually repeating the same arguments
and points.<br class="">
>>>> I am instead putting
the many reasons election by consensus
is not feasible, specially in this
scenario we are going through
currently.<br class="">
>>>> What doubt you have
about this position regardless the RIR
or region ? Perhaps you should read
the messages again.<br class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> Fernando<br class="">
>>>> <br class="">
>>>> On 29/08/2020 10:31,
Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:<br class="">
>>>>> Hi Fernando,<br
class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> Thank you for
your reaction but it appears you are
not discussing but repeating yourself
with no value add.<br class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> I would like to
find out whether you agree that the
election by consent is used by working
groups in RIPE region?<br class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> Thanks<br
class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> Marcus<br
class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> From: Fernando
Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
>>>>> Sent: Friday,
August 28, 2020 7:26 PM<br class="">
>>>>> To: <a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br
class="">
>>>>> Subject: Re:
[rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working
Group (WG) Guidelines and Procedures<br
class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> Hello<br class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> If we are having
all this trouble to define the next
elections probably <br class="">
>>>>> because there are
multiple people interested in the next
elections, how <br class="">
>>>>> can we dream
about any consensus ?<br class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> Consensus is for
proposals, for a collaborative
improving process that <br class="">
>>>>> may take months
or even more than an year, not for
electing people.<br class="">
>>>>> What is the fear
to have a proper vote process ? 1
person 1 vote and the <br class="">
>>>>> candidate with
most votes wins and servers the term.
What can go wrong ?<br class="">
>>>>> When one is
elected with most votes and there are
no signals of fraud <br class="">
>>>>> there is no room
for disputes and discussions.<br
class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> Qualified people
are people who effectively participate
in the <br class="">
>>>>> construction of
the process, who are truly part of it
and have <br class="">
>>>>> commitment to it
and not someone who is just passing in
front of the <br class="">
>>>>> door once in a
lifetime.<br class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> Afrinic PDP
doesn't even have yet the possibility
the Board to appoint <br class="">
>>>>> interim Co-Chairs
when necessary.<br class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> Fernando<br
class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>> On 28/08/2020
15:16, ALAIN AINA via RPD wrote:<br
class="">
>>>>> > Hello,<br
class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > Below are
our responses to last comments
received on list on this proposal.<br
class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > ######
Comment 1<br class="">
>>>>> > Elections by
consent is not for real world.<br
class="">
>>>>> > #######<br
class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > It does work
for working groups chairs selection in
RIPE region<br class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > #####
Comment 2<br class="">
>>>>> > It's just
something too utopic.<br class="">
>>>>> > #######<br
class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > As utopic
as how “rough consensus” appear until
you experiment it and cherish<br
class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > ######
Comment3<br class="">
>>>>> > Election by
vote where qualified people (with
minimal requirements) vote and the
candidate with the highest votes win,
works in most places in the world with
less margin for further disputes<br
class="">
>>>>> > ######<br
class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > there are
many models of elections with
different ways of qualifying voters,
determining the winners, etc....<br
class="">
>>>>> > What you
described is just one the them. Not
one fits all.<br class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > Each region
adopts the best model for its PDP and
how chairs/lead for the PDP activities
are selected.<br class="">
>>>>> > <a
href="https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.apnic.net/communit<wbr
class="">y/participate/sigs/sig-<wbr
class="">guidelines/chair-elections/<wbr
class="">rir-comparison-table/</a><br
class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > One can see
for example that in the case of LACNIC
where, there is an electronic votes by
those subscribed to the policy mailing
list, the elections results “must” be
ratified by consensus among those
present at the PPM as judged by the
acting chairs. If results can’t be
rectified, board appoint an interim
chair.<br class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > The AFRINIC
PDPWG adopted in the past the model
of votes by those physical present at
the PPM, until it showed its limit
recently.<br class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > Can you
please elaborate on how the “qualified
people” should be selected in the
context the PDPWG for the online
voting and how to prevent abuse and
further disputes?<br class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > HTH<br
class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> > —Alain<br
class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> ><br class="">
>>>>> >
______________________________<wbr
class="">_________________<br
class="">
>>>>> > RPD mailing
list<br class="">
>>>>> > <a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br
class="">
>>>>> > <a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://lists.afrinic.net/mail<wbr
class="">man/listinfo/rpd</a><br
class="">
>>>>> <br class="">
>>>>>
______________________________<wbr
class="">_________________<br
class="">
>>>>> RPD mailing list<br
class="">
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href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://lists.afrinic.net/mail<wbr
class="">man/listinfo/rpd</a><br
class="">
>>>
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class="">_________________<br
class="">
>>> RPD mailing list<br
class="">
>>> <a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://lists.afrinic.net/mail<wbr
class="">man/listinfo/rpd</a><br
class="">
>>
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class="">_________________<br
class="">
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target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br
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class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
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class="">
> <br class="">
> <br class="">
> ______________________________<wbr
class="">_________________<br
class="">
> RPD mailing list<br class="">
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target="_blank" class=""
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class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
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class="">
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class="">
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class="">
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class="">_________________<br
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href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br
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