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<p dir="auto">Hi Gabby, all,</p>
<p dir="auto">The issue as I see it is people keep regurgitating the same complaints without addressing the counter arguments from the authors or supporters of the proposal. Case in point, you may agree that points C and D have been dealt with but within minutes of your email I see them being raised without addressing the posts that have dealt with those points. </p>
<p dir="auto">For example, when operators give examples and ask for examples that show otherwise, the person disagreeing seems to take offence and simply states they don’t have to be an operator to give an opinion.</p>
<p dir="auto">I’ll add my input to points B and E as you have raised them, and I’ll be glad to hear your counter arguments.</p>
<h3 style="font-size:1.1em">B: consequences for non compliance. (paraphrased)</h3>
<p dir="auto">This is no different in my opinion from not providing contacts for other required whois contacts. Someone posted the text for admin-c and tech-c. For new applicants if you don’t provide say an admin-c it could mean you do not get resources. That would be the same for no abuse contacts. For existing holders you could lose your resources etc. I do not see the need to provide extra penalties for this. Note that this is just contact information. Not penalties for “abuse”.</p>
<p dir="auto">I’ll be happy to hear why in light of this you think it is relevant.</p>
<h3 style="font-size:1.1em">E: To force members to reply to their abuse email is not in the scope of AFRINIC. (paraphrased)</h3>
<p dir="auto">The requirement is for AFRINIC to check that the email is a valid one. i.e not something that doesn’t exist. Or bounces etc. I think that is within the scope of AFRINIC as a registrar. It is up to us to define the limits of each contact. Note that for admin-c AFRINIC checks that the contact is resident within the AS. For abuse it is important that the mailbox is attended to. It is not relevant in this case for example to check that the abuse contact is resident within the AS.</p>
<p dir="auto">The alternative (as AFRINIC has stated) is that from their point of view they have to respond to abuse complaints on behalf of the members. Surely this is operations (not in their scope) as opposed to keeping the <em>contact</em> data correct. With a valid abuse contact all AFRINIC say if contacted, is XYZ resources have the abuse contact ABC as listed in our database. Have you contacted them?</p>
<p dir="auto">To be clear, if they contacted ABC, but were not happy with the response ABC gave, AFRINIC has <em>no role</em> in mediating that.</p>
<p dir="auto">Kindly explain where I’m missing your point on this.</p>
<p dir="auto">On 30 Sep 2020, at 17:13 EAT, Gaby Giner wrote:</p>
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<blockquote style="border-left:2px solid #5855D5; color:#5855D5; margin:0 0 5px; padding-left:5px"><div id="5F93EB90-7C2C-4101-AA91-7D79CFE0F576"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Noah, Jordi, everyone,</div><div><br></div><div>I am confused. Everyone is raising the claim that there are "invalid" objections and though I do not reject that statement, it seems like it's being used here to automatically dismiss the objections raised by the community as for this policy. It was kindly summarized for us by the Co-chairs, and just to get everyone up to speed, here are THE objections to this policy:</div><div><br></div><div><p style="margin:0in 0in 8pt 0.5in;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-PH">6.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></span><span lang="EN-PH">Abuse Contact Update</span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.25in;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-PH">a. </span><span lang="EN-PH"><i>Staff analysis on how it affects legacy holder not conclusive (not sure why this should affect legacy holders)</i></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.25in;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><i><span lang="EN-PH">b.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></span><span lang="EN-PH">The proposal doesn’t state what will be the consequences of one member fails to comply. Why are we creating the abuse contact when there is no consequence for not providing the abuse contact</span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.25in;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><i><span lang="EN-PH">c. </span><span lang="EN-PH">Abuse contact email and issues with GDPR concerning the whois database.</span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.25in;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><i><span lang="EN-PH">d. </span><span lang="EN-PH">No proper definition of the term Abuse</span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 8pt 1.25in;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><i><span lang="EN-PH">e. </span><span lang="EN-PH">To force members to reply to their abuse email is not in the scope of AFRINIC.</span></i></p></div>Okay, people have addressed several concerns such as A, C, D but I think B and E deserve to be raised up as well because (and maybe it is just me being overwhelmed with the barrage of emails lately) I haven't read enough rebuttal for these points. Even if one were to consider that they are not valid objections, one could not steamroll the policy into last call immediately without addressing the entirety of the summarized objections from the community discussion by saying that every objection is invalid.<br><br></div><div dir="ltr">Gaby</div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 9:23 PM Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 9:20 AM Madhvi Gokool <<a href="mailto:madhvi@afrinic.net" target="_blank">madhvi@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p>Dear Frank/Community members</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>a) In the Impact Assessment, staff assumed that the policy will
not impact the legacy resources in the AFRINIC whois database and
requested the authors to confirm that this is so. AFRINIC staff
needs to keep this in consideration at the time of
implementation(myafrinic and whois business rules) - abuse-c
mandatory for non-legacy resources. Staff were therefore satisfied
with this confirmation and had not indicated otherwise to the
co-chairs and community in the session.<br>
</p>
<p>b) "AFRINIC is bound by the Mauritian Data Protection Act 2017
(inspired by GDPR). For more information on AFRINIC's Privacy
Policy, click on the following link - <font color="#000000"><a href="https://www.afrinic.net/privacy" target="_blank">https://www.afrinic.net/privacy</a>.
Thus, implementation of the abuse-c will not impact negatively
on AFRINIC's data protection obligations."</font></p>
<p>c) The only policy that affects the legacy resource holders is
documented in Section 5.7 of the CPM - and it regards transfers
of legacy resources. Legacy Holders are not bound by any other
resource policies. <br>
</p>
<p>Staff therefore will confirm with the authors that their policies
do not affect legacy resources , especially when implementation
will be done on the whois database. This is to ensure that the
implementation does not negatively impact how the legacy resource
holders manage their resources on the whois database. <br>
</p>
<p>d) In the Policy Implementation Experience Report during
AFRINIC-32/AIS'20 , staff have pointed out that Section 8 of the
CPM does not enforce a mandatory abuse contact . They also
mentioned that they are having to respond to an increase in
complaints regarding missing abuse contacts in the number
resources in the AFRINIC whois database and that operators have
warned that they will filter the resources with no abuse
contacts. Staff are therefore doing the work for the members , as
they are bound to respond to any queries that are logged with the
AFRINIC service desk. This situation is not scalable in the long
term & AFRINIC invites the community to also ponder on this
feedback.</p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Madhvi thanks for all the clarifications beyond the staff assessment.</div><div><br></div><div>Clearly this proposal had no valid objections, yet it was tossed back to the list based on invalid definitions arguments as though we are all not internet folk to understand what <b>abuse-c</b> really means.</div><div><br></div><div>Can we move forward to the last call now.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Noah</div></div></div>
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<p dir="auto">--<br>
patrick</p>
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