<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">In my opinion, no one is trying to sweep it under the carpet. The legacy status is out of the scope here. As suggested by one of the authors, RIPE indicates AFrinic the references and recommendations needed to handle legacy space; the RIPE NCC provides different services to </span><strong style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"> </strong><span style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">Legacy Internet Resource Holders.</span></p><p style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">It is out of any doubt that the legacy problem is complicated, but this proposal suggests a way to solve the concern for transfers.</span></p><p style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br></span></p><p style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">regards,</span></p><p style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br></span></p><p style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">Lucilla</span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mar 29 set 2020 alle ore 10:15 Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>How can the legacy status be out of the scope if this proposal is
exactly changing the opposite way it has been so far and is in
several other places.<br>
We cannot sweep it under the carpet and try to hide from this
topic. If this keeps the way was changed at the last minute it
must be brought back to discussion as it was a major change that
cannot be simply ignored and "left for later".<br>
Fernando<br>
</p>
<div>On 28/09/2020 21:20, Ibeanusi Elvis
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Dear Taiwo and everyone,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I believe your revision with the proposal and also
the ejection of the section 5.7.5 will resolve the complications
that the proposal might have brought about as pointed out by
some in the RDP Community. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Likewise, the revision of section 5.7.3.1 from "the
compliance with the policies of receiving RIR” to “in compliance
with the relevant policies”, hence, making the Inter-RIR
transfer of resources smooth and efficient. And as pointed out
the legacy status management is out of the scope of this policy
proposal. The proposal to formulate a service level for legacy
holders at various levels in accordance with the fees paid is a
tremendous idea. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks. </div>
<div>ELVIS. </div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Taiwo, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for your revision, I think
that removing section 5.7.5 solves most of the
issues claimed by some members, it would be better
to leave operational matters to the staff.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, I agree that the legacy status
management is out of the scope of this policy
proposal, it would be appropriate to discuss it on a
different proposal and/or take the RIPE NCC as
evidence/source.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Lucilla</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mar 29 set
2020 alle ore 04:42 Taiwo Oyewande <<a href="mailto:taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com" target="_blank">taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Jordi:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for your feedback, and
both of us have been taking it seriously.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please see our reply to your point:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We agree with your point that we
should make an editorial change for the
following：</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Firstly, for 5.7.3.1, from </div>
<div>The source must be the current
rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources
registered with any RIR, and shall be in
compliance with the policies of the receiving
RIR, and shall not be involved in any disputes
as to the status of those resources.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> The source must be the current and
rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources
registered with any RIR, in compliance with the
relevant policies, and shall not be involved in
any disputes as to those resources' status.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And for 5.7.4.1, from </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A transfer from another RIR to
AFRINIC requires a need-based evaluation.
AFRINIC must approve the recipient's need for
the IPv4 number resources. In order for an
organization to qualify for receiving a
transfer, it must first go through the process
of justifying its IPv4 resource needs before
AFRINIC. That is to say, the organization must
justify and demonstrate before AFRINIC its
initial/additional allocation/assignment usage,
as applicable, according to the policies in
force. </div>
<div>A transfer from AFRINIC to another
RIR must follow the policy of the receiving RIR.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A transfer from another RIR to
AFRINIC requires a need-based evaluation.
AFRINIC must approve the recipient's need for
the IPv4 number resources. In order for an
organization to qualify for receiving a
transfer, it must first go through the process
of justifying its IPv4 resource needs before
AFRINIC. That is to say, the organization must
justify and demonstrate before AFRINIC its
initial/additional allocation/assignment usage,
as applicable, according to the policies in
force. </div>
<div>A transfer from AFRINIC to another
RIR must follow the relevant policies.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As for 5.7.3.3 and 5.7.4.2, we do
not see the necessity to remove them, and we
believe it actually makes the policy clearer.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We agree in removing section 5.7.5,
as we recognize that this is out of the policy's
scope, and operational matters should be left to
the staff.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And we will also correct the grammar
mistake of 5.7.3.2.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>5.7.3.2 Source entities are not
eligible to receive any further IPv4 allocations
or assignments from AFRINIC for a period of
twelve (12) months after a transfer is approved.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As for the legacy space part, we
believe that at this moment, compatibility is
the most essential aspect since both ARIN and
RIPE have a transfer policy that indicates
legacy space remains legacy. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We consider legacy status management
as out of the scope of this policy proposal. We
suggest you to (or anyone who feels the need)
propose a service level to legacy holders at
different levels regarding the fees they have
been paying. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you think this’s necessary,
perhaps you can take reference from RIPE NCC’s
legacy policy: (see <a href="https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/legacy-resources/ripe-ncc-services-to-legacy-internet-resource-holders" target="_blank">https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/legacy-resources/ripe-ncc-services-to-legacy-internet-resource-holders</a>
), and we hope that you recognize that this is a
minor objection. We have addressed it by
inviting you to propose a more comprehensive
legacy solution to the community but not
forcefully done in the transfer policy, just
like the other regions did not.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Should the Chair allow, we would
address the above point raised by you before
passing the last call.</div>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">Kind regards</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 28 Sep 2020,
at 12:37, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">I don’t disagree that we
need one. That’s why I was the first one
to work on this matter. And as said, I
will be happy to support this *<b>one</b>* or *<b>any</b>*
proposal *<b>if</b>* it is
functional, not if will make us waste
our time because other RIRs will say
“I’m not going to use your procedure,
we, the 4 other RIRs have already one in
place. Are you going to cover our cost
for developing a special procedure with
you?”, not to say that the text has some
wording that is not coherent. I just
don’t want to keep repeating my points.
I think they are very objective.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">You said it, and this is
the wrong part: “chosen”. By the
cochairs, with mistakes that make it
non-functional, which changes that
should not be done at this time in the
process. Without giving the other
proposals the same opportunity to change
things. May be then we could have chosen
a different one?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">The PDP is not about
choosing, is about reaching consensus.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="ES-TRAD">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="ES-TRAD">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="ES-TRAD"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="ES-TRAD"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="ES-TRAD"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El 28/9/20
13:26, "Gaby Giner" <<a href="mailto:gabyginernetwork@gmail.com" target="_blank">gabyginernetwork@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Hi Jordi,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">I think
that we need to funnel our discussion
to the relevant subject for this
proposal. The region NEEDS an inter
RIR transfer policy, and since one has
already been chosen, we need to
support it and not distract it with
policies that could be better off
being a separate policy.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">As far as I
know, AFRINIC is a registration
entity. That's it. What
members/clients do with the resources
is not AFRINIC's business, and neither
is how members route them. As Lamiaa
has pointed out, once a member
terminates their contract and changed
their registration, it is out of the
area of responsibility of AFRINIC how
they route/do with their resources
anymore. I don't think it's fair to
burden AFRINIC with these
"difficulties" since it's not in the
job description anymore.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Thanks,
Gaby</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On Mon, Sep
28, 2020 at 7:01 PM Lamiaa Chnayti
<<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" target="_blank">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Hello Jordi,<br>
<br>
The salient point here is that
AFRINIC only manages registration,
not routing. We can make policies
about registration of space, but
not routing of the space. <br>
<br>
If their upstream decides to route
a space that wasn't registered to
them, it is entirely in their
upstream's right to do so. If the
operator chooses to route space
that doesn't belong to them and
their upstream is okay with it, it
is entirely out of the AFRINIC
community's scope - just like any
hijacking is out of the scope for
the AFRINIC community (the same
reason many have told you that the
hijacking as policy violation is
out of scope). <br>
<br>
From AFRINIC's point of view, they
have terminated the contract; they
have changed the registration.
What happens at the routing table
isn't really AFRINIC's business
nor their concern anymore. <br>
<br>
They do not need to get anything
back; those spaces can be
allocated to a different member.
It is entirely up to the one
holding the space to have other
operators recognize it. Please do
remember, AFRINIC is wholly based
on the voluntary cooperation of
operators; if someone does not
recognize AFRINIC's database as
the "right" registration database
and then start one of their own,
they can definitely do it as it is
entirely within their rights to do
so. So the difficulty you were
talking about is really out of the
scope of AFRINIC.</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Lamiaa</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Le lun.
28 sept. 2020 à 10:03, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
a écrit :</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Hi
Ekaterina,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">The
termination of the contract
is easy, but what happens if
the operator keeps using
those resources? How you
enforce it to stop? What
happens if the case is
brought to the courts by any
of the parties? How much
time it takes? Meanwhile
AFRINIC doesn’t get the
resources back, so it is not
able to redistribute them.
This is not fantasy: we have
a real case for millions of
IP addresses right now in
AFRINIC!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">How
much is the cost in terms of
lawyers and wait time? Who
is using meanwhile the
resources? The bad guys.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">*<b>Partially</b>*
that may be resolved if we
have the AS0 proposal, but
even in that case, that only
works for the operators
using the AS0 TAL!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Even
if the resources are
recovered, do you understand
that AFRINIC procedure is to
quarantine them for 12
months before coming back to
the pool?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">So,
what is the gain vs having
12 months hold time? Easy,
with the 12 months hold time
the cost is much lower. I’m
not talking only about money
cost for AFRINIC in case of
disputes, human resources to
tackle them, etc., but also
the cost of not being able
to use those resources
during the recovery time +
the quarantine period.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Again,
that will be resolved,
allowing to reduce the
quarantine period, if we
have the “policy compliance
dashboard”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">A /22
can be obtained in AFRINIC
just with a cost of 2.900
USD (justifying an end-site,
for example). You can easily
sell this for 10 times more!
So, it is a very small
investment for a huge
margin. Just think if you
can repeat that every year,
or actually many times per
year, just creating a
company for “only that”. How
much it cost in the cheaper
country in AFRICA to create
a company? You don’t need
offices, or anything like
that, you can make a “fake”
DC in your home.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">I
don’t think it is a matter
of the most “flexible and
open” proposal. It is about
that one that *<b>really
works</b>* and is *<b>safer</b>*. If
you followed the discussion
on the first proposal (the
one that I’ve presented in
2018, with two approaches
and several versions),
across that discussion *<b>the community</b>*
asked me to have a “security
seat belt”, so if something
goes wrong, it can be put in
hold. I said it was not
needed, but the community
insisted, so I did. Now the
community don’t want that.
This only shows that the
problem in developing
policies, is that depending
“who” is speaking, the
authors get crazy at every
version. However, if the
chairs really consider only
what are valid-objections
this will not be an issue.
But the problem is that
consensus is being decided
even considering invalid and
refuted objections.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">May be
some folks now understand
better that when you do
policy proposals, you need
to look *<b>at a
very broad context</b>*
and not only in that
specific RIR!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">It is
impossible for an author to
explain *<b>all
this</b>* in each policy
proposal. It is impossible
for an author to explain all
this in a *<b>8
minutes</b>* presentation.
There are *<b>many</b>*
other aspects that you can’t
realize if you’re not
operating networks and
participating in all the
RIRs. Internet is global and
you really need to consider
everything. A specific
region business and cultural
details, are very important
for the policy making
process, but not forgetting
the others!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">El
25/9/20 19:58, "Ekaterina
Kalugina" <<a href="mailto:kay.k.prof@gmail.com" target="_blank">kay.k.prof@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">Dear
Jordi, dear all,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">Jordi,
could you please elaborate
a bit more on your
statement: "the cost of
“not-being-able to use
those resources” for any
number of providers is
actually *lower* than the
cost of a single recovery
case!" </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">As
far as I understood, the
recovery is be achieved
though the termination of
the contract. So what
exactly is included in
the recovery costs? </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">In
regard to your argument on
the history of fraud in
all the RIRs, I do not
believe it is very
relevant to the current
discussion for a simple
reason that the maximum
allocation space is
currently /22. Proving the
need that is required for
the allocation would cost
thousands of dollars, so
there is simply no
incentive for businesses
to commit such fraud. It
would cost them way too </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">much
and bring way to
little. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">In
addition, I believe that
our focus should be on
passing the most
flexible and open
transfer policy to
incentivise the free
flow of resources in and
out of the region that
is necessary for a
steady economic
development. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">If
there are so many
concerns concerning
potential resource abuse
and fraud, perhaps a
separate policy on fraud
prevention ought to be
introduced. Let us not
try to kill all the
possible birds with one
stone and instead focus
on solving one problem
per policy. In my view,
this is they only way to
ameliorate the duties of
AFRINIC staff and ensure
the proper practical
application of each
policy. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">Best
wishes,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">Kay </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">On
Thu, 24 Sep 2020, 13:14
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Hi Ekaterina,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">El 24/9/20 12:25, "Ekaterina Kalugina" <<a href="mailto:kay.k.prof@gmail.com" target="_blank">kay.k.prof@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">Hey everyone,</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">@JORDI PALET MARTINEZ</a> <span style="font-size:12pt">you said, and I quote:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">>"An
ISP will not
need to return
even a /22
because he
loses 1.024
customers as
he can get
them back,
this is very
common
customer churn
in a matter of
weeks (even
days or hours
for big
ISPs)."<br>
<br>
In this case,
ISP would not
need to bother
with resource
transfer.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">[Jordi]
At the
beginning of
the transfers
in other
regions, I was
*<b>against</b>*
that. In my
opinion when
operators
don’t need the
resources,
they should
return them
back to the
RIR. BUT we
all know, that
people is not
so honest, and
this will only
happen in an
utopic and
idealistic
world and
moreover, this
will still
need some
“agreement”
between
different RIRs
to allow those
resources that
are returned
to be
“transferred”
among RIRs.
Due to facts,
afterwards I
realized that
this is a need
for the global
community and
that’s why I
agreed with
those
policies, and
even started
to work on
them as an
author. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
<br>
However, I
believe a
situation may
occur when the
ISP is unable
to distribute
the allocated
resources for
whatever
reason. </span><span style="font-size:12pt">Even if we cannot predict the reason we
must still
account for
such
contingency.
And, in such
case, it does
not make sense
to block these
resources for
12 months from
being
transferred to
a place where
they are
actually
needed. This
would be
detrimental to
everyone
involved. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">[Jordi]
I don’t agree.
A transfer may
take several
weeks or even
months. It
depends on
many factors,
like the
justification
time among the
RIRs,
providing
documents,
etc. Even if
you discover
that in month
3 after you
have received
a /22, you no
longer need it
(which I doubt
it can be
true), this
means that the
resources will
be “unused”
during other
6-7 months. I
could agree
that the hold
time is just
6-8 months
instead of 12,
but non zero
is difficult,
because the
cost of
“not-being-able
to use those
resources” for
any number of
providers is
actually *<b>lower</b>*
than the cost
of a single
recovery case!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
In regard to
your
statement:<br>
"However, a
“bad guy” will
easily use
that as an
excuse to
transfer the
resources in
days or
weeks."<br>
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">Like
Anthony and
Lucilla
mentioned
before, such
action would
be a clear act
of fraud.I do
not see any
reason why
anyone would
willingly
commit such a
violation.
"Bad guys" are
not stupid,
and if someone
wants to take
an advantage
of AFRINIC,
they will, and
I do not think
the 12 months
cap would
prevent that
in any way. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">[Jordi]
Just look at
the histories
of frauds in
all the RIRs!
This is real
life. Holding
the resources
for 12 months,
breaks their
business
model. It
makes sense
because it is
quick money
and you can do
it with a very
tiny fraction
of money, once
and again and
again,
rotating among
different
RIRs, etc.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
The only thing
it would
achieve, in my
view, is slow
down the flow
of resources
and create
stagnations
that could be
more costly
than any
retrieval
procedures in
case of fraud.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">[Jordi]
To be
objective, we
will need to
get statistics
of “speed” of
transfers
among
different
RIRs, number
of frauds or
fraud
attempts,
etc., etc.,
etc. and many
of those
details
probably are
sensitive and
the RIRs will
not recognize
that, even if
anonymized.
There have
been fraud
cases in RIPE,
which
everybody
knows by word
of mouth, but
it has never
published …</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
But of course,
staff
assessment is
needed to have
full clarity
of this issue.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">Best,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">Kay</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 9:05 AM Gaby Giner
<<a href="mailto:gabyginernetwork@gmail.com" target="_blank">gabyginernetwork@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">Hello guys,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">This discussion is very interesting seeing
that it deals
with the most
probable or
likely outcome
with those
that would
want to take
advantage of
the system. We
can only wish
that the
clients would
be completely
honest with
their need,
but of course,
if they are
inclined to
lie, there is
no mechanism
that would
stop them from
doing so. I
would suggest
that the
proposal
include a
means or a way
to
authenticate
the need but
that would be
more trouble
than it is
worth and
would not be
entirely
foolproof. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">Since we are dealing with finite and scarce
resources,
it's important
that the way
they are doled
out should be
systematic and
measured and
not just "I
need this. I
need this,
give me this".
Having said
that, I think
having a time
limit would
also cause
traffic for
the "need".
Regardless, as
Lucilla said,
these are
hypothetical
scenarios and
questions but
they may be
worth getting
into.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">I'm interested in what the staff/authors
would have to
say on this
matter.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">Thanks, Gaby.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">On Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 2:59 PM JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via
RPD, <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">I
mean a
non-realistic
situation. An
ISP will not
need to return
even a /22
because he
loses 1.024
customers as
he can get
them back,
this is very
common
customer churn
in a matter of
weeks (even
days or hours
for big ISPs).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">However,
a “bad guy”
will easily
use that as an
excuse to
transfer the
resources in
days or weeks.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt">El 24/9/20 8:29, "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
RPD" <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Exactly,
if you really
have that
situation you
can return
them and be
fair.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Anyway,
the example
that I’ve
presented is a
non-realistic
suggestion. It
is not
frequent that
an operator
loses
customers in
such way. It
is just the
perfect excuse
for “bad guys”
to get
resources and
resell them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Remember
also that in
the actual
exhaustion
phase, they
can only get a
maximum of a
/22.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">El 24/9/20 4:03, "Fernando Frediani" <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-left:177pt">We
can make in
another way:
if someone
justifies and
receives
resources from
AfriNic but
afterwards
realizes
something
changed and
doesn't need
those
addresses
anymore it
must give the
addresses back
to AfriNic so
it can
re-distribute
it in the most
fair way to
any other
organization
who goes
though the
same
justification
process. Why
is it
difficult to
think about
this fairness
with all
others in the
region ?</p>
<p style="margin-left:177pt">Fernando</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">On 23/09/2020 22:22, lucilla fornaro wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">Hello everyone,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">I agree with what concerns the problem of the
time limit.
Companies will
refrain from
such behavior
because it is
too risky and
indicative of
possible
fraud.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">Jordi, Considering your example related to the
customers'
loss, I think
that it is
adverse for
the operator
to wait 12
months before
transferring
the addresses.
What is the
point in
holding
addresses that
they will not
be able to use
and deprive
someone else
of further
resources?
What if they
don’t get new
customers?
What if they
lose even more
customers? Too
many
hypothetical
questions,
that is why I
believe it is
more
straightforward
and more
convenient for
everyone to
facilitate the
process.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">I agree that recovery processes are expensive
and
time-consuming,
but we can say
the same for
those unused
resources.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">As well as you, I would like to know the
staff’s view
on this.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">Lucilla </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">Il giorno mer 23 set 2020 alle ore 21:14 JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ
via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
ha scritto:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Hi
Anthony,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">I
think *<b>somehow</b>*
you’re right,
clearly I
overlooked
this.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">We
don’t need a
time limit to
transfer
resrources
because that
will be a
demonstration
of the “the
need was not
justified”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">However,
the problem of
this approach
is that if it
happens, the
staff *<b>will
need to start
a recovery
process</b>*
which is long,
costly and a
big trouble.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">What
happens if the
*<b>false</b>*
justification
for the
transfer is: I
had the need 6
months ago,
but then I
lost customers
and now I
don’t need
anymore the
space, so I’m
transfering
it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">What
happens if the
same operator,
repeat that
after another
6 months?
There are ways
to one and
again *<b>justify
the need</b>*
and it is,
instead, very
dificult for
the staff to
act on the RSA
for recovery
and member
closure in
those cases.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">On
the other way
around, what
is the
“objection” if
we have that
hold time? I
can only see
one: If the
example above
(I lost
customers)
happens, the
operator need
to wait until
month 12
before
transfering
the addresses.
Is that really
so bad? Or it
is good
because he may
get new
customers
again?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">I
think the
trade-off is
to have a good
balance and
ensure that we
avoid this
happening and
requiring the
staff to
invest
resources in
an
investigation
and recovery.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Could
the staff
provide a view
on this?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Regarding
the legacy.
Yes, ARIN and
RIPE don’t
have it (I
think APNIC
has it, LACNIC
definitively
has it).
AFRINIC has it
right now. We
are removing a
very good
thing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Why
it is so good?
Because legacy
holders aren’t
bound to the
RIRs RSAs, so
that’s
extremely bad
for the
overall
community.
They don’t pay
for *<b>services</b>*
that all the
RIRs are doing
for them, so
all the
members are
covering that
part of the
cost. They’re
not bound to
RIR policies,
so they can
break the
rules of the
community all
the time and
we have no way
to react on
that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">I
don’t agree on
the point of
the disputed
resources,
I’ve the
feeling that
somehow in the
process of
editing the
v2, it was
removed by
mistake and we
should have it
back. The
difference in
between
rightful
holder and
having a
dispute, is
depending on
who is saying
that, in case
of a dispute.
I will love
also to have
the staff
opinion on
that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">As
well, can the
impact
analysis be
made clear? Is
that all fine
for the staff
after having
checked with
authors each
point?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Please,
let’s make
this happen!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:212.4pt">El 21/9/20 18:10, "Anthony Ubah" <<a href="mailto:ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com" target="_blank">ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:212.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:212.4pt">Hello Jordi,<br>
<br>
We can sight
an instance
with APNIC as
a case study.
APNIC has a
transfer
policy that
doesn’t have a
time limit for
retransferring
resources and
time proves to
us that it
works.<br>
<br>
According to
APNIC, the act
of buying
space and
reselling it
right after
the purchase
seems to be
highly
unlikely
because of two
reasons.<br>
<br>
First of all,
most companies
buy space for
their own use,
and hence a
commodity
trading type
of business
doesn’t exist
in the IP
space
involved.<br>
<br>
Secondly,
since the
buyer is
required to
justify the
need of a
12-month
usage, if
he/she engages
in an activity
such as buying
the space and
then reselling
it right
after, this
indicative of
fraud because
it contravenes
the “NEED”
which is a
prerequisite
for receiving
such space.
This simply
implies that
the so-called
“NEED” which
they provided
was fake.
Hence,
companies will
refrain from
engaging in
such
behaviour.<br>
<br>
As for the
legacy
transfer, I
believe both
ARIN and RIPE
have the cases
of a
transferred
legacy space
remained as a
legacy. APNIC
may be
different, but
I think this
is just a
different sort
of opinion and
should not be
read as an
objection.
Also, what
matters the
most is that
if we follow
ARIN, we can
receive space
from them.
Definitely
this is a
significant
advantage.<br>
<br>
As for the
disputed
resources,
since AFRINIC
have to know
who the
rightful
holder of the
spaces are
before
transferring
them. I don’t
think this
would be a
concern
because
AFRINIC is not
able to
initiate a
transfer for
space that is
under dispute.
However, this
is a legal
matter and is
already out of
the scope of
the policy.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:212.4pt;line-height:150%"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Garamond,serif">Anthony
Ubah</span></b></p>
<p style="margin-left:212.4pt;line-height:150%"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(153,153,153)">E-mail:
</span><a href="mailto:anthony.ubah@gloworld.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif">anthony.ubah@goldspine.com</span></a><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(153,153,153)">.ng</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:212.4pt"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:212.4pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:212.4pt">On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:00 AM <<a href="mailto:rpd-request@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd-request@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
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Contents of
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<br>
Today's
Topics:<br>
<br>
1.
AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02
- Resource
Transfer
Policy<br>
(JORDI
PALET
MARTINEZ)<br>
2. Re:
Abuse Contact
Policy (JORDI
PALET
MARTINEZ)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 21
Sep 2020
10:34:13 +0200<br>
From: JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ
<<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>
To: rpd List
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: [rpd]
AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02 - Resource Transfer Policy<br>
Message-ID:
<<a href="mailto:8873E491-A0A7-4506-A490-13C6B6E67A7D@consulintel.es" target="_blank">8873E491-A0A7-4506-A490-13C6B6E67A7D@consulintel.es</a>><br>
Content-Type:
text/plain;
charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I will be
happy to
support this
proposal and
withdraw my
own one, but
*before* I?ve
some questions
about this
decision that
need to be
addressed
first (see
below,
in-line).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
10. Resource
Transfer
Policy<br>
<br>
This proposal
aims to
introduce
Inter RIR
transfer.
However, it
has the
following
opposition <br>
<br>
a.
Issues
with Legacy
holder
transfer is
potentially
considered
none-reciprocal
by ARIN<br>
<br>
b.
Potential
abuse of
AFRINIC free
pool without
the time limit
of receiving
an allocation
from AFRINIC.<br>
<br>
Chairs
Decision: The
proposal is
the least
contested of
all the 3
competing
proposals.
However
because of the
community?s
desire and
clear
expression for
the need for
an Inter RIR
transfer, we,
the Co-chairs,
believe that
in the
interest of
the community
we should
focus on a
proposal
rather than
several
similar ones.
This desire
was clearly
expressed at
the AFRINIC 31
meeting in
Angola.
Therefore, We
suggest that
the authors of
this proposal
make the
following
amendments: <br>
<br>
?
5.7.3.2
Source
entities are
not eligible
to receive
further IPv4
allocations or
assignments
from AFRINIC
for 12 months
period after
the transfer.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Jordi] This
is perfect,
and in fact is
what I?ve.
Just different
timing to
match phase 2
window x 2,
but not a big
issue.
However, we
are missing
something that
was also
objected by
the community
and I think is
key to avoid
abuse. Actual
text in the
CPM ?5.7.3.3
Source
entities must
not have
received a
transfer,
allocation, or
assignment of
IPv4 number
resources from
AFRINIC for
the 12 months
prior to the
approval of
transfer
request. This
restriction
excludes
mergers and
acquisitions
transfers.?.
This is no
longer
considered by
this proposal,
and in my
opinion it is
a MUST.
Doesn?t make
any sense that
someone is
getting
resources from
AFRINIC and
being able to
transfer them
immediately!
Can please the
chairs also
address this
point.<br>
<br>
[Jordi] Can
the staff
explain the
consequences
from their
perspective if
we don?t have
such text or
something
similar? Is
even possible
that the board
will not
ratify the
policy because
that, and we
are wasting a
previous time?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
?
5.7.4.3.
Transferred
legacy
resources will
still be
regarded as
legacy
resources.<br>
<br>
[Jordi] This
is also a
major issue.
I?m not sure
if the chairs
have
understood
what was the
point about
lack of
reciprocity.
We can?t
enforce ARIN
to accept that
outgoing (to
ARIN from
AFRINIC)
resources will
no longer be
legacy.
However the
actual CPM
states
?5.7.4.3
Transferred
IPv4 legacy
resources will
no longer be
regarded as
legacy
resources.?.
We must keep
that, because
we should
avoid legacy
resources to
keep being
legacy as much
as possible,
because they
are NOT BIND
to the CPM. If
we accept the
chairs
proposal, we
are going
*backwards*
not forward
and we may be
creating a
discrimination
with already
done transfers
within AFRINIC
(Intra-RIR,
according to
the current
policy). The
right text
here must be
?Transferred
incoming or
within AFRINIC
IPv4 legacy
resources will
no longer be
regarded as
legacy
resources?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Jordi]
Finally, there
were several
severe
comments from
the staff that
need to be
addressed. For
example,
resources
under dispute.
That?s a big
issue! There
are a few
others. I
think here we
need to see if
the staff got
everything
clear from the
authors inputs
and if the
policy can be
implemented or
there will be
open questions
that will not
allow to be a
functional
policy and
again, even
disallow the
board to
ratify it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Chairs
Decision:
Provided that
the above are
amended, the
decisions is
Rough
Consensus is
achieved
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 21
Sep 2020
11:00:01 +0200<br>
From: JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ
<<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re:
[rpd] Abuse
Contact Policy<br>
Message-ID:
<<a href="mailto:491C1297-8C2D-4939-B339-EDAA80334B24@consulintel.es" target="_blank">491C1297-8C2D-4939-B339-EDAA80334B24@consulintel.es</a>><br>
Content-Type:
text/plain;
charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.3 and 8.4
are making
sure that you
respond to an
abuse case,
*not* that you
*recognize* it
as an abuse.
It is your
choice to tell
the ?victim
ISP?, look for
me this is not
an abuse, so I
will not do
anything about
it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
AFRINIC can?t
verify this
automatically,
because it
doesn?t make
sense that
AFRINIC is
?sending? fake
abuse reports
to see if they
get a
response.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
AFRINIC can
only send an
email for the
validation of
the mailbox.
It is an
existing
mailbox? I?m
getting a
response (for
example, have
they, once I
send the
validation
email, clicked
the link or
went into
MyAfrinic to
input the
validation
code?).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.4 also
states the
timing for the
validation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.5 is the
validation
itself, so I
guess,
according to
your response,
that you?re ok
with this
specific
point. If we
don?t have it,
AFRINIC can?t
do a periodic
validation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.6. is making
sure that you
don?t try to
fake the
validation.
For instance,
you could
respond only
to AFRINIC
validations
and then
discard all
the other
emails. If we
don?t have
that, the
policy may
become
useless. Note
also that in
fact, if you
follow the
RSA, *anyone*
could escalate
*any* lack of
CPM
compliance. So
this is making
sure that the
policy text is
honest and
transparent.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Or do you
prefer to be
filtered
because you
don?t respond?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Clearly this
proposal is
not asking
AFRINIC to be
a police. Is
only making
sure that the
parties *can
talk*. Again:
AFRINIC will
not be
involved in
?how you
handle the
case?, but I
least you
should be able
to be
contacted and
respond.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
See this
example:<br>
<br>
If AK or Moses
customers are
sending me
spam, or
trying to
intrude my
network, and
they have
abuse
contacts, I
will be able
to complain to
them. Then we
have two
cases:<br>
<br>
1. Moses
responds to me
and say
?you?re right,
this is
against our
AUP? (is
irrelevant
what the law
in Moses
country say,
it is the
contract with
customers what
says what is
allowed or
not). Let?s
fix it. I will
warn the
customer, and
if they don?t
stop, we will
filter their
email port, or
even cancel
the contract
(just
examples, only
Moses can
decide what
they do).<br>
<br>
2. AK
instead
doesn?t care,
or the mailbox
is full or
bouncing
emails or
respond ?sorry
in our network
we allow
that?. Then I
can take my
own decision,
filter only
that IP
address, or
the complete
AK network. I
can even see
if this is
allowed in his
country and
take legal
actions (which
usually you
don?t do
because is
costly and
more of the
regulations
don?t know
?anything?
about abuse or
even
Internet!).<br>
<br>
AFRINIC will
not take any
measure if AK
decides that
is not an
abuse. It is
our problem
not AFRINIC
problem.
However, if
the email is
bouncing,
AFRINIC will
revalidate the
abuse-c and
make sure that
it works.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Is like a
phone book.
You have there
the phones and
they must be
correct, or
you need to
update them
every ?n?
months. The
phone book
doesn?t tell
the purpose of
each phone. If
you don?t want
to accept
calls related
to ?ordering
pizzas?, you
tell the
caller ?this
number is not
for that?, but
at least you
must pick up
the phone
otherwise, you
don?t know if
it is somebody
calling by
error or
someone that
you really
want to talk.
And this is
true for
*every* whois
contact.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you let us
know how do
you handle it
in the
networks that
you operate?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 21/9/20
10:00, "Lamiaa
Chnayti" <<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" target="_blank">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Fernando, <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I think you
are very
confused. I
never said I
have a problem
with people
completing
their
registration.
Keep
registration---having
an abuse
contact Email
in the whois,
just like tech
contact or
admin
contact--I am
perfectly fine
with it, and I
think the
current policy
achieves 99%
it, if you
want to add
this contact
as mandatory
field I am
fine with it
as well.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
But the
problem of
this policy in
8.3-8.6, is
that it
requires
AFRINIC to
monitor the
members HOW to
manage their
abuse mailbox
down to the
subject line,
and that is
out of the
scope of
AFRINIC, just
read my last
email with
logic in mind
and you will
understand. I
suggest this
policy should
be very
simple,
adding one
line to the
current
policy-- abuse
contact is
mandatory, and
it's done,
everything
else should be
deleted.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
And again, you
are trying to
use AFRINIC
for something
that is not in
its scope, how
someone
manages their
mailbox is not
in the scope
of AFRINIC, it
is like you go
to your local
church to ask
them to arrest
your neighbour
who plays loud
music at night
when you
should go to
police
instead. Same
thing for
someone
running an
abusive
network, as
many already
stated, it is
up to a local
Jury to decide
if it is
simply at an
annoying level
or a criminal
offense, but
either way
please do go
to your local
police to
report it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As for the
internet, we
never tell you
how to
behave--you
are entirely
at your rights
in the
internet to
behave
abusively, but
it is also
entirely in
everyone's
rights to
block you,
that's how
de-centralizing
works, no
central
governing,
everyone plays
nice because
that's the
only way for
everyone else
to play with
you, and this
policy here
asks AFRINIC
to act like a
central
government
even down to
manage
people's
mailbox's
subject line
and that is
way beyond
what internet
meant to be.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le dim. 20
sept. 2020 ?
23:42,
Fernando
Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19/09/2020
13:19, Lamiaa
Chnayti wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<clip><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How is it in
the scope of
AFRINIC to
decide how I
manage my
abuse mailbox?
If I want to
reply only to
a specific
subject line
of my abuse
box, it is
entirely in my
right to do.
Even if I
don't want to
reply at the
abuse mailbox
at all, that
is my right to
do so and if I
think no
action in my
network would
be considered
abuse
(although
unlikely), but
it is still
from the
internet
community
point of view,
entirely in my
right to do
so. You might
choose to
block me as a
network, but
that is also
your right. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The reason
internet is
called
INTER-NET is
because of its
decentralized
nature, you
have to play
nice for
others to play
with you, but
this community
never forces
anyone to play
nice, it is
not in the
scope of
AFRINIC to
decide how
members reply
to their abuse
mailbox, so if
8.3,8.4, 8.5
and 8.6 are
deleted in its
entirety, I
might consider
supporting it.
Also Jordi, I
feel you
always have
this central
management
type of
thinking, and
that is so not
internet.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It is not in
the scope of
any RIR how
anyone manage
people's<br>
<br>
mailboxes.<br>
<br>
<br>
Nobody exists
alone in the
Internet. If
an
organization<br>
<br>
hypothetically
doesn't care
at all and
refuses to
respond to
abuse<br>
<br>
emails it
probably
should
re-think its
existence in
the Internet<br>
<br>
business.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The Internet
is what is
among many
reasons
because of the<br>
<br>
cooperation
among its
organizations,
and there are
certain rules<br>
<br>
that are
agreed
cooperatively
and must be
observed by
everyone<br>
<br>
willing remain
on it,
otherwise it
may in many
cases cause
serious<br>
<br>
damage to
those willing
to operate in
serious manner
and keep it a<br>
<br>
healthy place
to most people
who depend on
it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This forum is
about setting
rules on how
registration
information<br>
<br>
about
resources are
kept and it
may be of the
wish of the<br>
<br>
community to
refuse keep
registration
for those who
repetitively<br>
<br>
abuse of their
individual
rights.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le ven. 18
sept. 2020 ?
09:23,<br>
<br>
JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via
RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I don?t agree.
Internet
doesn't depend
on<br>
<br>
any
jurisdiction;
abuse is about
what I (the
victim<br>
<br>
operator)
consider
abuse. The RFC
is clear about
that,<br>
<br>
in short
?Inappropriate
public
behaviour? (is
a<br>
<br>
mailbox so to
be able to
contact in
case there is
a<br>
<br>
possible
inappropriate
behaviour in
the public<br>
<br>
Internet). If
you want a
clearer
definition,
abuse is<br>
<br>
*anything*
that I don?t
want to accept
in my<br>
<br>
network
because is in
any way
damaging it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If I don?t
want to accept
a DoS, or
spam,<br>
<br>
or phising,
DMCA, or
whatever, this
is abuse *for<br>
<br>
me*. I?ve the
right to tell
you because
that<br>
<br>
abuse is
coming from
your network.
If you believe
that<br>
<br>
is not abuse
(and here is
your
jurisdiction
in some<br>
<br>
cases, in
other just
doesn?t exist,
but it may be
also<br>
<br>
your
?business?
decision ?
like operators
that don?t<br>
<br>
care if their
customers do
spam or
intrusion<br>
<br>
attempts),
you?ve the
right to tell
me ?sorry,
this is<br>
<br>
not abuse for
us?, and then
I?ve the right
to decide<br>
<br>
if I should
filter your
network based
on your<br>
<br>
response.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not having an
abuse contact,
means that<br>
<br>
I?m not able
to contact
you, so we
can?t talk, we<br>
<br>
can?t
investigate or
agree if it is
an abuse or
not,<br>
<br>
so you (the
offender
operator)
don?t have the
chance<br>
<br>
to decide
about it! Is
bad for you,
is bad for me.
In<br>
<br>
those cases,
my best choice
is to filter
you. This<br>
<br>
create
problems for
your customers
and my
customers.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We can?t
depend on
jurisdictions,
because<br>
<br>
then the
policy will
need to
consider
inter-relations<br>
<br>
among every
possible
?pairs? of
country
worlds, and we<br>
<br>
will need to
update the
policy based
on any<br>
<br>
jurisdiction
change. The
policy is not
about that, is<br>
<br>
about having a
valid
responsible
contact, not
about<br>
<br>
deciding what
is an abuse,
which is among
the two<br>
<br>
parties.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tell me what
is different
from AFRINIC<br>
<br>
than the rest
of the world,
because none
of the RIRs<br>
<br>
have defined
abuse in their
policies. I
even don?t<br>
<br>
recall that
having
appeared in
the
discussions!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
<br>
you want, I?m
happy to
change the
title of the<br>
<br>
proposal to
?supposed
abuse
contact?, that
may be<br>
<br>
clearing your
point?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Again,<br>
<br>
this is not
about defining
what is abuse,
this is<br>
<br>
among the
parties. It is
about making
sure that<br>
<br>
there is a
valid
responsible
contact in
case of<br>
<br>
anyone needs
to report what
he considers
an abuse.<br>
<br>
AFRINIC will
not punish
anyone that
believes that<br>
<br>
his customer
is not doing
an abuse
because in his<br>
<br>
country is not
an abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El<br>
<br>
18/9/20 9:59,
"Lamiaa
Chnayti" <<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" target="_blank">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello<br>
<br>
Jordi,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
RFC2142<br>
<br>
only defines a
tiny portion
of the network
abuse. In<br>
<br>
real world
operation,
abuse consists
of a much<br>
<br>
boarder range
: DMCA(copy
rights)
claims,<br>
<br>
unsolicited
emails ,
phishing
websites ,
trade mark<br>
<br>
disputes etc.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
All<br>
<br>
those are
legal issues
that vary
vastly across<br>
<br>
different
juridictions
in which no
one but each
of<br>
<br>
the
juridiction?s
judges can
decide if it
is an<br>
<br>
abuse or an
illegal
activity.
Claiming that
RFC2142<br>
<br>
defines not
even 1% of
real world
abuse is<br>
<br>
laughable.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le jeu.<br>
<br>
17 sept. 2020
? 15:51, JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ
via<br>
<br>
RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi<br>
<br>
Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I?ve<br>
<br>
said this
already. This
policy doesn?t<br>
<br>
enforce abuse,
it enforces
that the abuse<br>
<br>
contact is
there, and
works.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today<br>
<br>
AFRINIC is
paying for the
cost of the<br>
<br>
abuse handling
because only a
tiny<br>
<br>
fraction of
the members
has the abuse<br>
<br>
contacts in
place.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
<br>
the contacts
in the RIR
database
aren?t<br>
<br>
actual and
accurate, this
is a clear<br>
<br>
violation of
the RSA. So
what is<br>
<br>
unacceptable
is not having
the contacts,<br>
<br>
not on the
other way
around.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Abuse<br>
<br>
is not defined
by the RIRs,
everybody<br>
<br>
knows it and
this is the
reason why
NONE<br>
<br>
of the RIRs
have
re-defined it,
because it<br>
<br>
is already
stated in
RFC2142. Can
you<br>
<br>
justify why
AFRINIC is
different and
need<br>
<br>
a definition?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How<br>
<br>
you define it
in the
networks that
you<br>
<br>
operate?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 17/9/20<br>
<br>
10:49, "Lamiaa
Chnayti" <<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" target="_blank">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
will have to
agree with
Lucilla on
what<br>
<br>
she said and
would like to
add to it<br>
<br>
that :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Firstly, Abuse<br>
<br>
enforcement is
out of scope
for RIRs.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Secondly, RIRs<br>
<br>
have no
ability to
define what is<br>
<br>
?abuse?, one
abuse or even
criminal<br>
<br>
activity could
be entirely a
legal<br>
<br>
operation in a
different
jurisdiction.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally,
making<br>
<br>
a member
forcefully
reply to abuse<br>
<br>
contact Emails
are a waste of
resources<br>
<br>
and totally
pointless, it
is entirely up<br>
<br>
to the member
to define what
they think<br>
<br>
is acceptable
in their
network
operation<br>
<br>
and how they
react to it.
AFRINIC has no<br>
<br>
mandate to
force any
member to
reply to<br>
<br>
an ?abuse?,
since AFRINIC
doesn?t even<br>
<br>
have the
ability to
identify what
is<br>
<br>
considered an
abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Therefore the<br>
<br>
entire policy
is out of
scope for the<br>
<br>
RIR operation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le jeu. 17<br>
<br>
sept. 2020 ?
07:42, JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ<br>
<br>
via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Lucilla,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today we
already have<br>
<br>
mnt-IRT, and
everybody who
operate<br>
<br>
networks
understand
what it is an<br>
<br>
abuse. If you
operate
networks you<br>
<br>
know that
*anything*
which<br>
<br>
is a
non-authorized
use of a<br>
<br>
network is an
abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If you send
spam,<br>
<br>
attack
networks, try
to intrude<br>
<br>
networks,
etc., all
those are<br>
<br>
abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What the
policy ask<br>
<br>
is to make
sure that in
AFRINIC<br>
<br>
everybody has
an abuse
contact<br>
<br>
(today we have
mnt-IRT, but
is not<br>
<br>
mandatory, and
as a results
many<br>
<br>
African
networks are
filtered<br>
<br>
because lack
of that ? and<br>
<br>
consequently
they do not
respond<br>
<br>
to abuse cases
-, which exist
in<br>
<br>
all the other
regions of the<br>
<br>
world).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not having an
abuse<br>
<br>
means more
chances of
legal<br>
<br>
actions, more
cost, for both
the<br>
<br>
victims and
the ISPs.
Having<br>
<br>
that means
that you have
more<br>
<br>
chances to
resolve it in<br>
<br>
goodfaith.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
One of the
*most<br>
<br>
important*
Afrinic<br>
<br>
missions is to
have accuracy
on<br>
<br>
the database,
which includes<br>
<br>
accuracy on
the contacts.
We are<br>
<br>
not fulfilling
that in this<br>
<br>
situation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Remember that
*all*<br>
<br>
the other RIRs
have already
this<br>
<br>
kind of
policy. This
one is like<br>
<br>
the one that
has been<br>
<br>
implemented in
APNIC, and the<br>
<br>
accuracy of
the contacts
is now<br>
<br>
87.5% as
reported this
month in<br>
<br>
the last APNIC
meeting. In
that<br>
<br>
report *none*
of the<br>
<br>
members
indicated any
of the<br>
<br>
issues that
you indicated<br>
<br>
(didn't
happened as
well in the<br>
<br>
other
regions).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You know who
is<br>
<br>
interested in
not having
abuse<br>
<br>
contacts?
Those that use
their<br>
<br>
networks for
doing abuse<br>
<br>
(hijacking,
spam, DoS,<br>
<br>
intrusions,
etc.).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you
explain if<br>
<br>
the network
that you
operate has<br>
<br>
an abuse
contact an how
if one<br>
<br>
of your
customes is
trying to<br>
<br>
penetrate my
network or do
a<br>
<br>
DoS, I will be
able to
contact<br>
<br>
you and if you
will do
anything<br>
<br>
or just ignore
it?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El<br>
<br>
17/9/20 2:21,
"lucilla
fornaro"<br>
<br>
<<a href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com" target="_blank">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
<br>
all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
have some
concerns about
the<br>
<br>
?Abuse Contact
Policy?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
First<br>
<br>
of all, it
does not offer
a<br>
<br>
specific and
regulated<br>
<br>
description of
the term<br>
<br>
?abuse? and
this opens the<br>
<br>
door to
potentially
bigger<br>
<br>
problems: a
surplus of<br>
<br>
reports,
discrimination/legal<br>
<br>
issues, and a
waste of<br>
<br>
resources.
Around the
world,<br>
<br>
we can
perceive what
abuse is<br>
<br>
in very
different
ways.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Afrinic<br>
<br>
is not
entitled to
force<br>
<br>
members to
report abuses
and<br>
<br>
most
importantly,
this<br>
<br>
proposal does
not represent<br>
<br>
Afrinic?s
purpose.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I,<br>
<br>
therefore,
oppose this
policy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank<br>
<br>
you,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lucilla <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
RPD mailing
list <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
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This
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The<br>
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for the<br>
<br>
exclusive use
of the
individual(s)
named above<br>
<br>
and further
non-explicilty
authorized<br>
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disclosure,
copying,
distribution
or use of<br>
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the contents
of this
information,
even if<br>
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partially,
including
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strictly
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criminal
offense. If
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recipient be
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or use of the
contents<br>
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even if
partially,<br>
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including
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prohibited,
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<br>
offense, so
you must reply
to the
original<br>
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sender to
inform about
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delete it.<br>
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list<br>
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<br>
Le jeu.<br>
<br>
17 sept. 2020
? 15:49, JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ
via<br>
<br>
RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi<br>
<br>
Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I?ve<br>
<br>
said this
already. This
policy doesn?t<br>
<br>
enforce abuse,
it enforces
that the abuse<br>
<br>
contact is
there, and
works.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today<br>
<br>
AFRINIC is
paying for the
cost of the
abuse<br>
<br>
handling
because only a
tiny fraction
of the<br>
<br>
members has
the abuse
contacts in
place.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If the<br>
<br>
contacts in
the RIR
database
aren?t actual<br>
<br>
and accurate,
this is a
clear
violation of<br>
<br>
the RSA. So
what is
unacceptable
is not<br>
<br>
having the
contacts, not
on the other
way<br>
<br>
around.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Abuse is<br>
<br>
not defined by
the RIRs,
everybody
knows it<br>
<br>
and this is
the reason why
NONE of the
RIRs<br>
<br>
have
re-defined it,
because it is
already<br>
<br>
stated in
RFC2142. Can
you justify
why<br>
<br>
AFRINIC is
different and
need a
definition?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How you<br>
<br>
define it in
the networks
that you
operate?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 17/9/20<br>
<br>
10:49, "Lamiaa
Chnayti" <<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" target="_blank">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
will have to
agree with
Lucilla on
what<br>
<br>
she said and
would like to
add to it that<br>
<br>
:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Firstly, Abuse<br>
<br>
enforcement is
out of scope
for RIRs.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Secondly, RIRs<br>
<br>
have no
ability to
define what is
?abuse?,<br>
<br>
one abuse or
even criminal
activity could<br>
<br>
be entirely a
legal
operation in a<br>
<br>
different
jurisdiction.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally,
making<br>
<br>
a member
forcefully
reply to abuse
contact<br>
<br>
Emails are a
waste of
resources and<br>
<br>
totally
pointless, it
is entirely up
to<br>
<br>
the member to
define what
they think is<br>
<br>
acceptable in
their network
operation and<br>
<br>
how they react
to it. AFRINIC
has no<br>
<br>
mandate to
force any
member to
reply to an<br>
<br>
?abuse?, since
AFRINIC
doesn?t even
have<br>
<br>
the ability to
identify what
is considered<br>
<br>
an abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Therefore the<br>
<br>
entire policy
is out of
scope for the
RIR<br>
<br>
operation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le jeu. 17<br>
<br>
sept. 2020 ?
07:42, JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ<br>
<br>
via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi<br>
<br>
Lucilla,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today<br>
<br>
we already
have mnt-IRT,
and<br>
<br>
everybody who
operate
networks<br>
<br>
understand
what it is an
abuse. If<br>
<br>
you operate
networks you
know that
*anything*<br>
<br>
which is a
non-authorized
use of a<br>
<br>
network is an
abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
<br>
you send spam,
attack
networks, try<br>
<br>
to intrude
networks,
etc., all
those<br>
<br>
are abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What<br>
<br>
the policy ask
is to make
sure that<br>
<br>
in AFRINIC
everybody has
an abuse<br>
<br>
contact (today
we have
mnt-IRT, but<br>
<br>
is not
mandatory, and
as a results<br>
<br>
many African
networks are
filtered<br>
<br>
because lack
of that ? and<br>
<br>
consequently
they do not
respond to<br>
<br>
abuse cases -,
which exist in
all<br>
<br>
the other
regions of the
world).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not having an
abuse<br>
<br>
means more
chances of
legal<br>
<br>
actions, more
cost, for both
the<br>
<br>
victims and
the ISPs.
Having that<br>
<br>
means that you
have more
chances<br>
<br>
to resolve it
in goodfaith.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
One of the
*most<br>
<br>
important*
Afrinic
missions<br>
<br>
is to have
accuracy on
the<br>
<br>
database,
which includes
accuracy<br>
<br>
on the
contacts. We
are not<br>
<br>
fulfilling
that in this
situation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Remember that
*all*<br>
<br>
the other RIRs
have already
this<br>
<br>
kind of
policy. This
one is like<br>
<br>
the one that
has been
implemented<br>
<br>
in APNIC, and
the accuracy
of the<br>
<br>
contacts is
now 87.5% as
reported<br>
<br>
this month in
the last APNIC<br>
<br>
meeting. In
that report
*none*<br>
<br>
of the members
indicated any
of<br>
<br>
the issues
that you
indicated<br>
<br>
(didn't
happened as
well in the<br>
<br>
other
regions).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You know who
is<br>
<br>
interested in
not having
abuse<br>
<br>
contacts?
Those that use
their<br>
<br>
networks for
doing abuse<br>
<br>
(hijacking,
spam, DoS,
intrusions,<br>
<br>
etc.).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you
explain if<br>
<br>
the network
that you
operate has<br>
<br>
an abuse
contact an how
if one of<br>
<br>
your customes
is trying to<br>
<br>
penetrate my
network or do
a DoS,<br>
<br>
I will be able
to contact you
and<br>
<br>
if you will do
anything or
just<br>
<br>
ignore it?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El<br>
<br>
17/9/20 2:21,
"lucilla
fornaro"<br>
<br>
<<a href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com" target="_blank">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
<br>
all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
have some
concerns about
the<br>
<br>
?Abuse Contact
Policy?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
First<br>
<br>
of all, it
does not offer
a<br>
<br>
specific and
regulated<br>
<br>
description of
the term
?abuse?<br>
<br>
and this
opens the door
to<br>
<br>
potentially
bigger
problems: a<br>
<br>
surplus of
reports,<br>
<br>
discrimination/legal issues, and<br>
<br>
a waste of
resources.
Around the<br>
<br>
world, we can
perceive what<br>
<br>
abuse is in
very different
ways.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Afrinic<br>
<br>
is not
entitled to
force members<br>
<br>
to report
abuses and
most<br>
<br>
importantly,
this proposal
does<br>
<br>
not represent
Afrinic?s
purpose.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I,<br>
<br>
therefore,
oppose this
policy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank<br>
<br>
you,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lucilla <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
RPD mailing
list <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
<br>
<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
<br>
<br>
Are you ready
for the new
Internet ?<br>
<br>
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Company<br>
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<br>
This
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message
contains<br>
<br>
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which may be
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<br>
confidential.
The
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intended to be
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files, is
strictly
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will<br>
<br>
be considered
a criminal
offense. If
you<br>
<br>
are not the
intended
recipient be
aware<br>
<br>
that any
disclosure,
copying,<br>
<br>
distribution
or use of the
contents of<br>
<br>
this
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even if
partially,<br>
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including
attached
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strictly<br>
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prohibited,
will be
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<br>
criminal
offense, so
you must reply
to<br>
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the original
sender to
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**********************************************<br>
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<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
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Are you ready
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The IPv6
Company<br>
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<br>
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This
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<br>
which may be
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The<br>
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intended to be
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use of the
individual(s)
named above
and further<br>
<br>
non-explicilty
authorized
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<br>
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this<br>
<br>
information,
even if
partially,
including<br>
<br>
attached
files, is
strictly
prohibited and
will<br>
<br>
be considered
a criminal
offense. If
you are not<br>
<br>
the intended
recipient be
aware that any<br>
<br>
disclosure,
copying,
distribution
or use of the<br>
<br>
contents of
this
information,
even if
partially,<br>
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including
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strictly<br>
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prohibited,
will be
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criminal<br>
<br>
offense, so
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original<br>
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sender to
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delete it.<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
RPD mailing
list<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
CHNAYTI<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
<br>
<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
<br>
<br>
Are you ready
for the new
Internet ?<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
The IPv6
Company<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This
electronic
message
contains
information
which may be<br>
<br>
privileged or
confidential.
The
information is
intended to<br>
<br>
be for the
exclusive use
of the
individual(s)
named above<br>
<br>
and further
non-explicilty
authorized
disclosure,
copying,<br>
<br>
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this
information,<br>
<br>
even if
partially,
including
attached
files, is
strictly<br>
<br>
prohibited and
will be
considered a
criminal
offense. If
you<br>
<br>
are not the
intended
recipient be
aware that any
disclosure,<br>
<br>
copying,
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this<br>
<br>
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached
files, is<br>
<br>
strictly
prohibited,
will be
considered a
criminal
offense,<br>
<br>
so you must
reply to the
original
sender to
inform about<br>
<br>
this
communication
and delete it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
RPD mailing
list<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
RPD mailing
list<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
RPD mailing
list<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Lamiaa CHNAYTI<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready
for the new
Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6
Company<br>
<br>
This
electronic
message
contains
information
which may be
privileged or
confidential.
The
information is
intended to be
for the
exclusive use
of the
individual(s)
named above
and further
non-explicilty
authorized
disclosure,
copying,
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached
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strictly
prohibited and
will be
considered a
criminal
offense. If
you are not
the intended
recipient be
aware that any
disclosure,
copying,
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this
information,
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you must reply
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<br>
--------------
next part
--------------<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Subject:
Digest Footer<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing
list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
End of RPD
Digest, Vol
168, Issue 143<br>
*************************************</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:177pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready
for the new
Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6
Company<br>
<br>
This
electronic
message
contains
information
which may be
privileged or
confidential.
The
information is
intended to be
for the
exclusive use
of the
individual(s)
named above
and further
non-explicilty
authorized
disclosure,
copying,
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached
files, is
strictly
prohibited and
will be
considered a
criminal
offense. If
you are not
the intended
recipient be
aware that any
disclosure,
copying,
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached
files, is
strictly
prohibited,
will be
considered a
criminal
offense, so
you must reply
to the
original
sender to
inform about
this
communication
and delete it.</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing
list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:177pt"> </p>
<pre style="margin-left:177pt">_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre style="margin-left:177pt">RPD mailing list</pre>
<pre style="margin-left:177pt"><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:177pt"><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:177pt">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing
list <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:141.6pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready
for the new
Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6
Company<br>
<br>
This
electronic
message
contains
information
which may be
privileged or
confidential.
The
information is
intended to be
for the
exclusive use
of the
individual(s)
named above
and further
non-explicilty
authorized
disclosure,
copying,
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached
files, is
strictly
prohibited and
will be
considered a
criminal
offense. If
you are not
the intended
recipient be
aware that any
disclosure,
copying,
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached
files, is
strictly
prohibited,
will be
considered a
criminal
offense, so
you must reply
to the
original
sender to
inform about
this
communication
and delete it.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready
for the new
Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6
Company<br>
<br>
This
electronic
message
contains
information
which may be
privileged or
confidential.
The
information is
intended to be
for the
exclusive use
of the
individual(s)
named above
and further
non-explicilty
authorized
disclosure,
copying,
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached
files, is
strictly
prohibited and
will be
considered a
criminal
offense. If
you are not
the intended
recipient be
aware that any
disclosure,
copying,
distribution
or use of the
contents of
this
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached
files, is
strictly
prohibited,
will be
considered a
criminal
offense, so
you must reply
to the
original
sender to
inform about
this
communication
and delete it.</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing
list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:106.2pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the
new Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message
contains information
which may be privileged
or confidential. The
information is intended
to be for the exclusive
use of the individual(s)
named above and further
non-explicilty
authorized disclosure,
copying, distribution or
use of the contents of
this information, even
if partially, including
attached files, is
strictly prohibited and
will be considered a
criminal offense. If you
are not the intended
recipient be aware that
any disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of
the contents of this
information, even if
partially, including
attached files, is
strictly prohibited,
will be considered a
criminal offense, so you
must reply to the
original sender to
inform about this
communication and delete
it.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new
Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains
information which may be
privileged or confidential. The
information is intended to be
for the exclusive use of the
individual(s) named above and
further non-explicilty
authorized disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of the
contents of this information,
even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly
prohibited and will be
considered a criminal offense.
If you are not the intended
recipient be aware that any
disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of the
contents of this information,
even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly
prohibited, will be considered a
criminal offense, so you must
reply to the original sender to
inform about this communication
and delete it.</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
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