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<p>If anyone believe there is something to be discussed about fraud
prevention in "another future proposal" that is a clear signal
this proposal should not progress as written. Leaving it "for
later" can become just a trick to not change it anytime soon
imposing a serious operational issue to AfriNic staff when having
to recovery fraudulent activities with resources.</p>
<p>What has been done with regarding this proposal is unprecedented
compared to other RIRs and yet another reason this proposal the
way it is, is not prepared to progress and requires further
discussion and adjustments, specially considering the major
changes that happened at last minute.</p>
<p>Fernnado<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/09/2020 08:44, lucilla fornaro
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKJg62JMr++QQf=TaVJa8A0dgWHxxRf=KkHqrgR=FRJGoD+8og@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Hello everyone, </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<p
style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">I
will have to agree with </span><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">Lamiaa</span><strong
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">, </strong><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">AFRINIC’s
role is to ensure a complete assent with needs-based
policies and to update and preserve the efficiency of
the registry, we cannot promote policy concerning how
clients then transfer resources across an internetwork
from a source to a destination (routing).</span></p>
<p
style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">AFRINIC </span><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">encourages
and defends the bottom-up policy process and unallocated
number resource pool, </span><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">then
the responsibility is entirely up to the one holding the
resources (member) on how to route them. I feel we are
focusing on and discussing something slightly different
than the actual proposal. </span></p>
<p
style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
</p>
<p
style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">For
what concerns the potential fraud and abuse, I still
think it would be a better option to discuss a separate
policy on fraud prevention. If you believe fraud can
happen, I assume you agree on the fact that it can also
potentially happens with 12 months of hold time. That’s
why we need a separate proposal and keep this one
operating smoothly. </span></p>
<p
style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
</span></p>
<p
style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">regards,</span></p>
<p
style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><br>
</span></p>
<p
style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span
style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">Lucilla </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno lun 28 set 2020 alle
ore 19:59 Lamiaa Chnayti <<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="arial, sans-serif">Hello Jordi,<br>
<br>
The salient point here is that AFRINIC only manages
registration, not routing. We can make policies about
registration of space, but not routing of the space. <br>
<br>
If their upstream decides to route a space that wasn't
registered to them, it is entirely in their upstream's
right to do so. If the operator chooses to route space
that doesn't belong to them and their upstream is okay
with it, it is entirely out of the AFRINIC community's
scope - just like any hijacking is out of the scope for
the AFRINIC community (the same reason many have told you
that the hijacking as policy violation is out of scope). <br>
<br>
From AFRINIC's point of view, they have terminated the
contract; they have changed the registration. What happens
at the routing table isn't really AFRINIC's business nor
their concern anymore. <br>
<br>
They do not need to get anything back; those spaces can be
allocated to a different member. It is entirely up to the
one holding the space to have other operators recognize
it. Please do remember, AFRINIC is wholly based on the
voluntary cooperation of operators; if someone does not
recognize AFRINIC's database as the "right" registration
database and then start one of their own, they can
definitely do it as it is entirely within their rights to
do so. So the difficulty you were talking about is really
out of the scope of AFRINIC.</font>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Regards,</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Lamiaa</font><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le lun. 28 sept. 2020
à 10:03, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="ES">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">Hi Ekaterina,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">The termination of the contract is
easy, but what happens if the operator keeps using
those resources? How you enforce it to stop? What
happens if the case is brought to the courts by
any of the parties? How much time it takes?
Meanwhile AFRINIC doesn’t get the resources back,
so it is not able to redistribute them. This is
not fantasy: we have a real case for millions of
IP addresses right now in AFRINIC!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">How much is the cost in terms of
lawyers and wait time? Who is using meanwhile the
resources? The bad guys.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">*<b>Partially</b>* that may be
resolved if we have the AS0 proposal, but even in
that case, that only works for the operators using
the AS0 TAL!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">Even if the resources are recovered,
do you understand that AFRINIC procedure is to
quarantine them for 12 months before coming back
to the pool?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">So, what is the gain vs having 12
months hold time? Easy, with the 12 months hold
time the cost is much lower. I’m not talking only
about money cost for AFRINIC in case of disputes,
human resources to tackle them, etc., but also the
cost of not being able to use those resources
during the recovery time + the quarantine period.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">Again, that will be resolved,
allowing to reduce the quarantine period, if we
have the “policy compliance dashboard”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">A /22 can be obtained in AFRINIC just
with a cost of 2.900 USD (justifying an end-site,
for example). You can easily sell this for 10
times more! So, it is a very small investment for
a huge margin. Just think if you can repeat that
every year, or actually many times per year, just
creating a company for “only that”. How much it
cost in the cheaper country in AFRICA to create a
company? You don’t need offices, or anything like
that, you can make a “fake” DC in your home.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">I don’t think it is a matter of the
most “flexible and open” proposal. It is about
that one that *<b>really works</b>* and is *<b>safer</b>*.
If you followed the discussion on the first
proposal (the one that I’ve presented in 2018,
with two approaches and several versions), across
that discussion *<b>the community</b>* asked me to
have a “security seat belt”, so if something goes
wrong, it can be put in hold. I said it was not
needed, but the community insisted, so I did. Now
the community don’t want that. This only shows
that the problem in developing policies, is that
depending “who” is speaking, the authors get crazy
at every version. However, if the chairs really
consider only what are valid-objections this will
not be an issue. But the problem is that consensus
is being decided even considering invalid and
refuted objections.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">May be some folks now understand
better that when you do policy proposals, you need
to look *<b>at a very broad context</b>* and not
only in that specific RIR!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">It is impossible for an author to
explain *<b>all this</b>* in each policy proposal.
It is impossible for an author to explain all this
in a *<b>8 minutes</b>* presentation. There are *<b>many</b>*
other aspects that you can’t realize if you’re not
operating networks and participating in all the
RIRs. Internet is global and you really need to
consider everything. A specific region business
and cultural details, are very important for the
policy making process, but not forgetting the
others!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El
25/9/20 19:58, "Ekaterina Kalugina" <<a
href="mailto:kay.k.prof@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">kay.k.prof@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Dear
Jordi, dear all,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Jordi,
could you please elaborate a bit more on your
statement: "the cost of “not-being-able to use
those resources” for any number of providers is
actually *lower* than the cost of a single
recovery case!" </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">As
far as I understood, the recovery is be
achieved though the termination of the contract.
So what exactly is included in the recovery
costs? </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">In
regard to your argument on the history of fraud
in all the RIRs, I do not believe it is very
relevant to the current discussion for a simple
reason that the maximum allocation space is
currently /22. Proving the need that is required
for the allocation would cost thousands of
dollars, so there is simply no incentive for
businesses to commit such fraud. It would cost
them way too </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">much
and bring way to little. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">In
addition, I believe that our focus should be
on passing the most flexible and open
transfer policy to incentivise the free flow
of resources in and out of the region that is
necessary for a steady economic development. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">If
there are so many concerns concerning
potential resource abuse and fraud, perhaps a
separate policy on fraud prevention ought to
be introduced. Let us not try to kill all the
possible birds with one stone and instead
focus on solving one problem per policy. In my
view, this is they only way to ameliorate the
duties of AFRINIC staff and ensure the proper
practical application of each policy. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Best
wishes,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Kay </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On
Thu, 24 Sep 2020, 13:14 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
<<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm
0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Hi
Ekaterina,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">El 24/9/20
12:25, "Ekaterina Kalugina" <<a
href="mailto:kay.k.prof@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">kay.k.prof@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt">Hey everyone,</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><a
href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">@JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ</a> <span
style="font-size:12pt">you said, and
I quote:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt">>"An ISP
will not need to return even a /22
because he loses 1.024 customers as
he can get them back, this is very
common customer churn in a matter of
weeks (even days or hours for big
ISPs)."<br>
<br>
In this case, ISP would not need to
bother with resource transfer.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">[Jordi]
At the beginning of the transfers in
other regions, I was *<b>against</b>*
that. In my opinion when operators
don’t need the resources, they
should return them back to the RIR.
BUT we all know, that people is not
so honest, and this will only happen
in an utopic and idealistic world
and moreover, this will still need
some “agreement” between different
RIRs to allow those resources that
are returned to be “transferred”
among RIRs. Due to facts, afterwards
I realized that this is a need for
the global community and that’s why
I agreed with those policies, and
even started to work on them as an
author. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
<br>
However, I believe a situation may
occur when the ISP is unable to
distribute the allocated resources
for whatever reason. </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">Even if we
cannot predict the reason we must
still account for such contingency.
And, in such case, it does not make
sense to block these resources for
12 months from being transferred to
a place where they are actually
needed. This would be detrimental to
everyone involved. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">[Jordi]
I don’t agree. A transfer may take
several weeks or even months. It
depends on many factors, like the
justification time among the RIRs,
providing documents, etc. Even if
you discover that in month 3 after
you have received a /22, you no
longer need it (which I doubt it can
be true), this means that the
resources will be “unused” during
other 6-7 months. I could agree that
the hold time is just 6-8 months
instead of 12, but non zero is
difficult, because the cost of
“not-being-able to use those
resources” for any number of
providers is actually *<b>lower</b>*
than the cost of a single recovery
case!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
In regard to your statement:<br>
"However, a “bad guy” will easily
use that as an excuse to transfer
the resources in days or weeks."<br>
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">Like
Anthony and Lucilla mentioned
before, such action would be a clear
act of fraud.I do not see any reason
why anyone would willingly commit
such a violation. "Bad guys" are not
stupid, and if someone wants to take
an advantage of AFRINIC, they will,
and I do not think the 12 months cap
would prevent that in any way. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">[Jordi]
Just look at the histories of frauds
in all the RIRs! This is real life.
Holding the resources for 12 months,
breaks their business model. It
makes sense because it is quick
money and you can do it with a very
tiny fraction of money, once and
again and again, rotating among
different RIRs, etc.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
The only thing it would achieve, in
my view, is slow down the flow of
resources and create stagnations
that could be more costly than any
retrieval procedures in case of
fraud.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">[Jordi]
To be objective, we will need to get
statistics of “speed” of transfers
among different RIRs, number of
frauds or fraud attempts, etc.,
etc., etc. and many of those details
probably are sensitive and the RIRs
will not recognize that, even if
anonymized. There have been fraud
cases in RIPE, which everybody knows
by word of mouth, but it has never
published …</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
But of course, staff assessment is
needed to have full clarity of this
issue.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt">Best,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt">Kay</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">On Thu, Sep
24, 2020 at 9:05 AM Gaby Giner <<a
href="mailto:gabyginernetwork@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gabyginernetwork@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none
none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm
0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">Hello
guys,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">This
discussion is very interesting
seeing that it deals with the most
probable or likely outcome with
those that would want to take
advantage of the system. We can only
wish that the clients would be
completely honest with their need,
but of course, if they are inclined
to lie, there is no mechanism that
would stop them from doing so. I
would suggest that the proposal
include a means or a way to
authenticate the need but that would
be more trouble than it is worth and
would not be entirely foolproof. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">Since we
are dealing with finite and scarce
resources, it's important that the
way they are doled out should be
systematic and measured and not just
"I need this. I need this, give me
this". Having said that, I think
having a time limit would also cause
traffic for the "need". Regardless,
as Lucilla said, these are
hypothetical scenarios and questions
but they may be worth getting into.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">I'm
interested in what the staff/authors
would have to say on this matter.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">Thanks,
Gaby.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">On Thu,
Sep 24, 2020, 2:59 PM JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via RPD, <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none
none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm
0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">I mean a
non-realistic situation. An
ISP will not need to return
even a /22 because he loses
1.024 customers as he can get
them back, this is very common
customer churn in a matter of
weeks (even days or hours for
big ISPs).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">However, a “bad
guy” will easily use that as
an excuse to transfer the
resources in days or weeks.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">El
24/9/20 8:29, "JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via RPD" <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">Exactly, if you
really have that situation you
can return them and be fair.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">Anyway, the
example that I’ve presented is
a non-realistic suggestion. It
is not frequent that an
operator loses customers in
such way. It is just the
perfect excuse for “bad guys”
to get resources and resell
them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">Remember also
that in the actual exhaustion
phase, they can only get a
maximum of a /22.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">El
24/9/20 4:03, "Fernando
Frediani" <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-left:141.6pt">We
can make in another way: if
someone justifies and receives
resources from AfriNic but
afterwards realizes something
changed and doesn't need those
addresses anymore it must give
the addresses back to AfriNic so
it can re-distribute it in the
most fair way to any other
organization who goes though the
same justification process. Why
is it difficult to think about
this fairness with all others in
the region ?</p>
<p style="margin-left:141.6pt">Fernando</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">On
23/09/2020 22:22, lucilla
fornaro wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">Hello
everyone,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">I
agree with what concerns
the problem of the time
limit. Companies will
refrain from such
behavior because it is
too risky and indicative
of possible fraud.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">Jordi,
Considering your example
related to the
customers' loss, I think
that it is adverse for
the operator to wait 12
months before
transferring the
addresses. What is the
point in holding
addresses that they will
not be able to use and
deprive someone else of
further resources? What
if they don’t get new
customers? What if they
lose even more
customers? Too many
hypothetical questions,
that is why I believe it
is more straightforward
and more convenient for
everyone to facilitate
the process.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">I
agree that recovery
processes are expensive
and time-consuming, but
we can say the same for
those unused resources.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">As
well as you, I would
like to know the staff’s
view on this.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">Lucilla </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">Il
giorno mer 23 set 2020
alle ore 21:14 JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
ha scritto:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-style:none
none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm
0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm
5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Hi Anthony,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">I think *<b>somehow</b>*
you’re right,
clearly I
overlooked this.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">We don’t need a time
limit to transfer
resrources because
that will be a
demonstration of
the “the need was
not justified”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">However, the problem of
this approach is
that if it
happens, the staff
*<b>will need to
start a recovery
process</b>*
which is long,
costly and a big
trouble.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">What happens if the *<b>false</b>*
justification for
the transfer is: I
had the need 6
months ago, but
then I lost
customers and now
I don’t need
anymore the space,
so I’m transfering
it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">What happens if the same
operator, repeat
that after another
6 months? There
are ways to one
and again *<b>justify
the need</b>*
and it is,
instead, very
dificult for the
staff to act on
the RSA for
recovery and
member closure in
those cases.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">On the other way around,
what is the
“objection” if we
have that hold
time? I can only
see one: If the
example above (I
lost customers)
happens, the
operator need to
wait until month
12 before
transfering the
addresses. Is that
really so bad? Or
it is good because
he may get new
customers again?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">I think the trade-off is
to have a good
balance and ensure
that we avoid this
happening and
requiring the
staff to invest
resources in an
investigation and
recovery.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Could the staff provide
a view on this?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Regarding the legacy.
Yes, ARIN and RIPE
don’t have it (I
think APNIC has
it, LACNIC
definitively has
it). AFRINIC has
it right now. We
are removing a
very good thing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Why it is so good?
Because legacy
holders aren’t
bound to the RIRs
RSAs, so that’s
extremely bad for
the overall
community. They
don’t pay for *<b>services</b>*
that all the RIRs
are doing for
them, so all the
members are
covering that part
of the cost.
They’re not bound
to RIR policies,
so they can break
the rules of the
community all the
time and we have
no way to react on
that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">I don’t agree on the
point of the
disputed
resources, I’ve
the feeling that
somehow in the
process of editing
the v2, it was
removed by mistake
and we should have
it back. The
difference in
between rightful
holder and having
a dispute, is
depending on who
is saying that, in
case of a dispute.
I will love also
to have the staff
opinion on that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">As well, can the impact
analysis be made
clear? Is that all
fine for the staff
after having
checked with
authors each
point?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Please, let’s make this
happen!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:177pt">El 21/9/20 18:10, "Anthony Ubah" <<a
href="mailto:ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com</a>> escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:177pt">Hello Jordi,<br>
<br>
We can sight an
instance with
APNIC as a case
study. APNIC has a
transfer policy
that doesn’t have
a time limit for
retransferring
resources and time
proves to us that
it works.<br>
<br>
According to
APNIC, the act of
buying space and
reselling it right
after the purchase
seems to be highly
unlikely because
of two reasons.<br>
<br>
First of all, most
companies buy
space for their
own use, and hence
a commodity
trading type of
business doesn’t
exist in the IP
space involved.<br>
<br>
Secondly, since
the buyer is
required to
justify the need
of a 12-month
usage, if he/she
engages in an
activity such as
buying the space
and then reselling
it right after,
this indicative of
fraud because it
contravenes the
“NEED” which is a
prerequisite for
receiving such
space. This simply
implies that the
so-called “NEED”
which they
provided was fake.
Hence, companies
will refrain from
engaging in such
behaviour.<br>
<br>
As for the legacy
transfer, I
believe both ARIN
and RIPE have the
cases of a
transferred legacy
space remained as
a legacy. APNIC
may be different,
but I think this
is just a
different sort of
opinion and should
not be read as an
objection. Also,
what matters the
most is that if we
follow ARIN, we
can receive space
from them.
Definitely this is
a significant
advantage.<br>
<br>
As for the
disputed
resources, since
AFRINIC have to
know who the
rightful holder of
the spaces are
before
transferring them.
I don’t think this
would be a concern
because AFRINIC is
not able to
initiate a
transfer for space
that is under
dispute. However,
this is a legal
matter and is
already out of the
scope of the
policy.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-left:177pt;line-height:150%"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Garamond,serif">Anthony
Ubah</span></b></p>
<p
style="margin-left:177pt;line-height:150%"><span
style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(153,153,153)">E-mail: </span><a
href="mailto:anthony.ubah@gloworld.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:Garamond,serif">anthony.ubah@goldspine.com</span></a><span
style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(153,153,153)">.ng</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:177pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:177pt">On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:00 AM <<a
href="mailto:rpd-request@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd-request@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-style:none
none none
solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm
0cm 0cm
6pt;margin:5pt 0cm
5pt 4.8pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:177pt">Send RPD mailing list submissions to<br>
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<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1.
AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02
- Resource
Transfer Policy<br>
(JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ)<br>
2. Re: Abuse
Contact Policy
(JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 21
Sep 2020
10:34:13 +0200<br>
From: JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ
<<a
href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>
To: rpd List
<<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: [rpd]
AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02
- Resource
Transfer Policy<br>
Message-ID: <<a
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Hi all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I will be happy
to support this
proposal and
withdraw my own
one, but
*before* I?ve
some questions
about this
decision that
need to be
addressed first
(see below,
in-line).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
10. Resource
Transfer Policy<br>
<br>
This proposal
aims to
introduce Inter
RIR transfer.
However, it has
the following
opposition <br>
<br>
a.
Issues with
Legacy holder
transfer is
potentially
considered
none-reciprocal
by ARIN<br>
<br>
b.
Potential
abuse of AFRINIC
free pool
without the time
limit of
receiving an
allocation from
AFRINIC.<br>
<br>
Chairs Decision:
The proposal is
the least
contested of all
the 3 competing
proposals.
However because
of the
community?s
desire and clear
expression for
the need for an
Inter RIR
transfer, we,
the Co-chairs,
believe that in
the interest of
the community we
should focus on
a proposal
rather than
several similar
ones. This
desire was
clearly
expressed at the
AFRINIC 31
meeting in
Angola.
Therefore, We
suggest that the
authors of this
proposal make
the following
amendments: <br>
<br>
?
5.7.3.2 Source
entities are not
eligible to
receive further
IPv4 allocations
or assignments
from AFRINIC for
12 months period
after the
transfer.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Jordi] This is
perfect, and in
fact is what
I?ve. Just
different timing
to match phase 2
window x 2, but
not a big issue.
However, we are
missing
something that
was also
objected by the
community and I
think is key to
avoid abuse.
Actual text in
the CPM ?5.7.3.3
Source entities
must not have
received a
transfer,
allocation, or
assignment of
IPv4 number
resources from
AFRINIC for the
12 months prior
to the approval
of transfer
request. This
restriction
excludes mergers
and acquisitions
transfers.?.
This is no
longer
considered by
this proposal,
and in my
opinion it is a
MUST. Doesn?t
make any sense
that someone is
getting
resources from
AFRINIC and
being able to
transfer them
immediately! Can
please the
chairs also
address this
point.<br>
<br>
[Jordi] Can the
staff explain
the consequences
from their
perspective if
we don?t have
such text or
something
similar? Is even
possible that
the board will
not ratify the
policy because
that, and we are
wasting a
previous time?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
?
5.7.4.3.
Transferred
legacy resources
will still be
regarded as
legacy
resources.<br>
<br>
[Jordi] This is
also a major
issue. I?m not
sure if the
chairs have
understood what
was the point
about lack of
reciprocity. We
can?t enforce
ARIN to accept
that outgoing
(to ARIN from
AFRINIC)
resources will
no longer be
legacy. However
the actual CPM
states ?5.7.4.3
Transferred IPv4
legacy resources
will no longer
be regarded as
legacy
resources.?. We
must keep that,
because we
should avoid
legacy resources
to keep being
legacy as much
as possible,
because they are
NOT BIND to the
CPM. If we
accept the
chairs proposal,
we are going
*backwards* not
forward and we
may be creating
a discrimination
with already
done transfers
within AFRINIC
(Intra-RIR,
according to the
current policy).
The right text
here must be
?Transferred
incoming or
within AFRINIC
IPv4 legacy
resources will
no longer be
regarded as
legacy
resources?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Jordi] Finally,
there were
several severe
comments from
the staff that
need to be
addressed. For
example,
resources under
dispute. That?s
a big issue!
There are a few
others. I think
here we need to
see if the staff
got everything
clear from the
authors inputs
and if the
policy can be
implemented or
there will be
open questions
that will not
allow to be a
functional
policy and
again, even
disallow the
board to ratify
it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Chairs Decision:
Provided that
the above are
amended, the
decisions is
Rough Consensus
is achieved
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 21
Sep 2020
11:00:01 +0200<br>
From: JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ
<<a
href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>
To: <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re:
[rpd] Abuse
Contact Policy<br>
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<br>
Hi Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.3 and 8.4 are
making sure that
you respond to
an abuse case,
*not* that you
*recognize* it
as an abuse. It
is your choice
to tell the
?victim ISP?,
look for me this
is not an abuse,
so I will not do
anything about
it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
AFRINIC can?t
verify this
automatically,
because it
doesn?t make
sense that
AFRINIC is
?sending? fake
abuse reports to
see if they get
a response.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
AFRINIC can only
send an email
for the
validation of
the mailbox. It
is an existing
mailbox? I?m
getting a
response (for
example, have
they, once I
send the
validation
email, clicked
the link or went
into MyAfrinic
to input the
validation
code?).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.4 also states
the timing for
the validation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.5 is the
validation
itself, so I
guess, according
to your
response, that
you?re ok with
this specific
point. If we
don?t have it,
AFRINIC can?t do
a periodic
validation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.6. is making
sure that you
don?t try to
fake the
validation. For
instance, you
could respond
only to AFRINIC
validations and
then discard all
the other
emails. If we
don?t have that,
the policy may
become useless.
Note also that
in fact, if you
follow the RSA,
*anyone* could
escalate *any*
lack of CPM
compliance. So
this is making
sure that the
policy text is
honest and
transparent.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Or do you prefer
to be filtered
because you
don?t respond?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Clearly this
proposal is not
asking AFRINIC
to be a police.
Is only making
sure that the
parties *can
talk*. Again:
AFRINIC will not
be involved in
?how you handle
the case?, but I
least you should
be able to be
contacted and
respond.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
See this
example:<br>
<br>
If AK or Moses
customers are
sending me spam,
or trying to
intrude my
network, and
they have abuse
contacts, I will
be able to
complain to
them. Then we
have two cases:<br>
<br>
1. Moses
responds to me
and say ?you?re
right, this is
against our AUP?
(is irrelevant
what the law in
Moses country
say, it is the
contract with
customers what
says what is
allowed or not).
Let?s fix it. I
will warn the
customer, and if
they don?t stop,
we will filter
their email
port, or even
cancel the
contract (just
examples, only
Moses can decide
what they do).<br>
<br>
2. AK instead
doesn?t care, or
the mailbox is
full or bouncing
emails or
respond ?sorry
in our network
we allow that?.
Then I can take
my own decision,
filter only that
IP address, or
the complete AK
network. I can
even see if this
is allowed in
his country and
take legal
actions (which
usually you
don?t do because
is costly and
more of the
regulations
don?t know
?anything? about
abuse or even
Internet!).<br>
<br>
AFRINIC will not
take any measure
if AK decides
that is not an
abuse. It is our
problem not
AFRINIC problem.
However, if the
email is
bouncing,
AFRINIC will
revalidate the
abuse-c and make
sure that it
works.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Is like a phone
book. You have
there the phones
and they must be
correct, or you
need to update
them every ?n?
months. The
phone book
doesn?t tell the
purpose of each
phone. If you
don?t want to
accept calls
related to
?ordering
pizzas?, you
tell the caller
?this number is
not for that?,
but at least you
must pick up the
phone otherwise,
you don?t know
if it is
somebody calling
by error or
someone that you
really want to
talk. And this
is true for
*every* whois
contact.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you let us
know how do you
handle it in the
networks that
you operate?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 21/9/20
10:00, "Lamiaa
Chnayti" <<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Fernando, <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I think you are
very confused. I
never said I
have a problem
with people
completing their
registration.
Keep
registration---having
an abuse contact
Email in the
whois, just like
tech contact or
admin contact--I
am perfectly
fine with it,
and I think the
current policy
achieves 99% it,
if you want to
add this contact
as mandatory
field I am fine
with it as well.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
But the problem
of this policy
in 8.3-8.6, is
that it requires
AFRINIC to
monitor the
members HOW to
manage their
abuse mailbox
down to the
subject line,
and that is out
of the scope of
AFRINIC, just
read my last
email with logic
in mind and you
will understand.
I suggest this
policy should be
very simple,
adding one line
to the current
policy-- abuse
contact is
mandatory, and
it's done,
everything else
should be
deleted.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
And again, you
are trying to
use AFRINIC for
something that
is not in its
scope, how
someone manages
their mailbox is
not in the scope
of AFRINIC, it
is like you go
to your local
church to ask
them to arrest
your neighbour
who plays loud
music at night
when you should
go to police
instead. Same
thing for
someone running
an abusive
network, as many
already stated,
it is up to a
local Jury to
decide if it is
simply at an
annoying level
or a criminal
offense, but
either way
please do go to
your local
police to report
it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As for the
internet, we
never tell you
how to
behave--you are
entirely at your
rights in the
internet to
behave
abusively, but
it is also
entirely in
everyone's
rights to block
you, that's how
de-centralizing
works, no
central
governing,
everyone plays
nice because
that's the only
way for everyone
else to play
with you, and
this policy here
asks AFRINIC to
act like a
central
government even
down to manage
people's
mailbox's
subject line and
that is way
beyond what
internet meant
to be.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le dim. 20 sept.
2020 ? 23:42,
Fernando
Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19/09/2020
13:19, Lamiaa
Chnayti wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<clip><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How is it in the
scope of AFRINIC
to decide how I
manage my abuse
mailbox? If I
want to reply
only to a
specific subject
line of my abuse
box, it is
entirely in my
right to do.
Even if I don't
want to reply at
the abuse
mailbox at all,
that is my right
to do so and if
I think no
action in my
network would be
considered abuse
(although
unlikely), but
it is still
from the
internet
community point
of view,
entirely in my
right to do so.
You might choose
to block me as a
network, but
that is also
your right. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The reason
internet is
called INTER-NET
is because of
its
decentralized
nature, you have
to play nice for
others to play
with you, but
this community
never forces
anyone to play
nice, it is not
in the scope of
AFRINIC to
decide how
members reply to
their abuse
mailbox, so if
8.3,8.4, 8.5 and
8.6 are deleted
in its entirety,
I might consider
supporting it.
Also Jordi, I
feel you always
have this
central
management type
of thinking, and
that is so not
internet.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It is not in the
scope of any RIR
how anyone
manage people's<br>
<br>
mailboxes.<br>
<br>
<br>
Nobody exists
alone in the
Internet. If an
organization<br>
<br>
hypothetically
doesn't care at
all and refuses
to respond to
abuse<br>
<br>
emails it
probably should
re-think its
existence in the
Internet<br>
<br>
business.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The Internet is
what is among
many reasons
because of the<br>
<br>
cooperation
among its
organizations,
and there are
certain rules<br>
<br>
that are agreed
cooperatively
and must be
observed by
everyone<br>
<br>
willing remain
on it, otherwise
it may in many
cases cause
serious<br>
<br>
damage to those
willing to
operate in
serious manner
and keep it a<br>
<br>
healthy place to
most people who
depend on it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This forum is
about setting
rules on how
registration
information<br>
<br>
about resources
are kept and it
may be of the
wish of the<br>
<br>
community to
refuse keep
registration for
those who
repetitively<br>
<br>
abuse of their
individual
rights.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le ven. 18 sept.
2020 ? 09:23,<br>
<br>
JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via RPD
<<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I don?t agree.
Internet doesn't
depend on<br>
<br>
any
jurisdiction;
abuse is about
what I (the
victim<br>
<br>
operator)
consider abuse.
The RFC is clear
about that,<br>
<br>
in short
?Inappropriate
public
behaviour? (is a<br>
<br>
mailbox so to be
able to contact
in case there is
a<br>
<br>
possible
inappropriate
behaviour in the
public<br>
<br>
Internet). If
you want a
clearer
definition,
abuse is<br>
<br>
*anything* that
I don?t want to
accept in my<br>
<br>
network because
is in any way
damaging it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If I don?t want
to accept a DoS,
or spam,<br>
<br>
or phising,
DMCA, or
whatever, this
is abuse *for<br>
<br>
me*. I?ve the
right to tell
you because that<br>
<br>
abuse is coming
from your
network. If you
believe that<br>
<br>
is not abuse
(and here is
your
jurisdiction in
some<br>
<br>
cases, in other
just doesn?t
exist, but it
may be also<br>
<br>
your ?business?
decision ? like
operators that
don?t<br>
<br>
care if their
customers do
spam or
intrusion<br>
<br>
attempts),
you?ve the right
to tell me
?sorry, this is<br>
<br>
not abuse for
us?, and then
I?ve the right
to decide<br>
<br>
if I should
filter your
network based on
your<br>
<br>
response.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not having an
abuse contact,
means that<br>
<br>
I?m not able to
contact you, so
we can?t talk,
we<br>
<br>
can?t
investigate or
agree if it is
an abuse or not,<br>
<br>
so you (the
offender
operator) don?t
have the chance<br>
<br>
to decide about
it! Is bad for
you, is bad for
me. In<br>
<br>
those cases, my
best choice is
to filter you.
This<br>
<br>
create problems
for your
customers and my
customers.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We can?t depend
on
jurisdictions,
because<br>
<br>
then the policy
will need to
consider
inter-relations<br>
<br>
among every
possible ?pairs?
of country
worlds, and we<br>
<br>
will need to
update the
policy based on
any<br>
<br>
jurisdiction
change. The
policy is not
about that, is<br>
<br>
about having a
valid
responsible
contact, not
about<br>
<br>
deciding what is
an abuse, which
is among the two<br>
<br>
parties.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tell me what is
different from
AFRINIC<br>
<br>
than the rest of
the world,
because none of
the RIRs<br>
<br>
have defined
abuse in their
policies. I even
don?t<br>
<br>
recall that
having appeared
in the
discussions!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
<br>
you want, I?m
happy to change
the title of the<br>
<br>
proposal to
?supposed abuse
contact?, that
may be<br>
<br>
clearing your
point?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Again,<br>
<br>
this is not
about defining
what is abuse,
this is<br>
<br>
among the
parties. It is
about making
sure that<br>
<br>
there is a valid
responsible
contact in case
of<br>
<br>
anyone needs to
report what he
considers an
abuse.<br>
<br>
AFRINIC will not
punish anyone
that believes
that<br>
<br>
his customer is
not doing an
abuse because in
his<br>
<br>
country is not
an abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El<br>
<br>
18/9/20 9:59,
"Lamiaa Chnayti"
<<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello<br>
<br>
Jordi,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
RFC2142<br>
<br>
only defines a
tiny portion of
the network
abuse. In<br>
<br>
real world
operation, abuse
consists of a
much<br>
<br>
boarder range :
DMCA(copy
rights) claims,<br>
<br>
unsolicited
emails ,
phishing
websites , trade
mark<br>
<br>
disputes etc. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
All<br>
<br>
those are legal
issues that vary
vastly across<br>
<br>
different
juridictions in
which no one but
each of<br>
<br>
the
juridiction?s
judges can
decide if it is
an<br>
<br>
abuse or an
illegal
activity.
Claiming that
RFC2142<br>
<br>
defines not even
1% of real world
abuse is<br>
<br>
laughable.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le jeu.<br>
<br>
17 sept. 2020 ?
15:51, JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ
via<br>
<br>
RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi<br>
<br>
Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I?ve<br>
<br>
said this
already. This
policy doesn?t<br>
<br>
enforce abuse,
it enforces that
the abuse<br>
<br>
contact is
there, and
works.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today<br>
<br>
AFRINIC is
paying for the
cost of the<br>
<br>
abuse handling
because only a
tiny<br>
<br>
fraction of the
members has the
abuse<br>
<br>
contacts in
place.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
<br>
the contacts in
the RIR database
aren?t<br>
<br>
actual and
accurate, this
is a clear<br>
<br>
violation of the
RSA. So what is<br>
<br>
unacceptable is
not having the
contacts,<br>
<br>
not on the other
way around.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Abuse<br>
<br>
is not defined
by the RIRs,
everybody<br>
<br>
knows it and
this is the
reason why NONE<br>
<br>
of the RIRs have
re-defined it,
because it<br>
<br>
is already
stated in
RFC2142. Can you<br>
<br>
justify why
AFRINIC is
different and
need<br>
<br>
a definition?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How<br>
<br>
you define it in
the networks
that you<br>
<br>
operate?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 17/9/20<br>
<br>
10:49, "Lamiaa
Chnayti" <<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
will have to
agree with
Lucilla on what<br>
<br>
she said and
would like to
add to it<br>
<br>
that :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Firstly, Abuse<br>
<br>
enforcement is
out of scope for
RIRs.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Secondly, RIRs<br>
<br>
have no ability
to define what
is<br>
<br>
?abuse?, one
abuse or even
criminal<br>
<br>
activity could
be entirely a
legal<br>
<br>
operation in a
different
jurisdiction.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally, making<br>
<br>
a member
forcefully reply
to abuse<br>
<br>
contact Emails
are a waste of
resources<br>
<br>
and totally
pointless, it is
entirely up<br>
<br>
to the member to
define what they
think<br>
<br>
is acceptable in
their network
operation<br>
<br>
and how they
react to it.
AFRINIC has no<br>
<br>
mandate to force
any member to
reply to<br>
<br>
an ?abuse?,
since AFRINIC
doesn?t even<br>
<br>
have the ability
to identify what
is<br>
<br>
considered an
abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Therefore the<br>
<br>
entire policy is
out of scope for
the<br>
<br>
RIR operation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le jeu. 17<br>
<br>
sept. 2020 ?
07:42, JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ<br>
<br>
via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Lucilla,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today we already
have<br>
<br>
mnt-IRT, and
everybody who
operate<br>
<br>
networks
understand what
it is an<br>
<br>
abuse. If you
operate networks
you<br>
<br>
know that
*anything* which<br>
<br>
is a
non-authorized
use of a<br>
<br>
network is an
abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If you send
spam,<br>
<br>
attack networks,
try to intrude<br>
<br>
networks, etc.,
all those are<br>
<br>
abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What the policy
ask<br>
<br>
is to make sure
that in AFRINIC<br>
<br>
everybody has an
abuse contact<br>
<br>
(today we have
mnt-IRT, but is
not<br>
<br>
mandatory, and
as a results
many<br>
<br>
African networks
are filtered<br>
<br>
because lack of
that ? and<br>
<br>
consequently
they do not
respond<br>
<br>
to abuse cases
-, which exist
in<br>
<br>
all the other
regions of the<br>
<br>
world).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not having an
abuse<br>
<br>
means more
chances of legal<br>
<br>
actions, more
cost, for both
the<br>
<br>
victims and the
ISPs. Having<br>
<br>
that means that
you have more<br>
<br>
chances to
resolve it in<br>
<br>
goodfaith.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
One of the *most<br>
<br>
important*
Afrinic<br>
<br>
missions is to
have accuracy on<br>
<br>
the database,
which includes<br>
<br>
accuracy on the
contacts. We are<br>
<br>
not fulfilling
that in this<br>
<br>
situation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Remember that
*all*<br>
<br>
the other RIRs
have already
this<br>
<br>
kind of policy.
This one is like<br>
<br>
the one that has
been<br>
<br>
implemented in
APNIC, and the<br>
<br>
accuracy of the
contacts is now<br>
<br>
87.5% as
reported this
month in<br>
<br>
the last APNIC
meeting. In that<br>
<br>
report *none* of
the<br>
<br>
members
indicated any of
the<br>
<br>
issues that you
indicated<br>
<br>
(didn't happened
as well in the<br>
<br>
other regions).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You know who is<br>
<br>
interested in
not having abuse<br>
<br>
contacts? Those
that use their<br>
<br>
networks for
doing abuse<br>
<br>
(hijacking,
spam, DoS,<br>
<br>
intrusions,
etc.).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you explain
if<br>
<br>
the network that
you operate has<br>
<br>
an abuse contact
an how if one<br>
<br>
of your customes
is trying to<br>
<br>
penetrate my
network or do a<br>
<br>
DoS, I will be
able to contact<br>
<br>
you and if you
will do anything<br>
<br>
or just ignore
it?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El<br>
<br>
17/9/20 2:21,
"lucilla
fornaro"<br>
<br>
<<a
href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
<br>
all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
have some
concerns about
the<br>
<br>
?Abuse Contact
Policy?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
First<br>
<br>
of all, it does
not offer a<br>
<br>
specific and
regulated<br>
<br>
description of
the term<br>
<br>
?abuse? and
this opens the<br>
<br>
door to
potentially
bigger<br>
<br>
problems: a
surplus of<br>
<br>
reports,
discrimination/legal<br>
<br>
issues, and a
waste of<br>
<br>
resources.
Around the
world,<br>
<br>
we can perceive
what abuse is<br>
<br>
in very
different ways.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Afrinic<br>
<br>
is not entitled
to force<br>
<br>
members to
report abuses
and<br>
<br>
most
importantly,
this<br>
<br>
proposal does
not represent<br>
<br>
Afrinic?s
purpose.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I,<br>
<br>
therefore,
oppose this
policy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank<br>
<br>
you,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lucilla <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
RPD mailing list
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This electronic
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<br>
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offense, so you
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Le jeu.<br>
<br>
17 sept. 2020 ?
15:49, JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ
via<br>
<br>
RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi<br>
<br>
Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I?ve<br>
<br>
said this
already. This
policy doesn?t<br>
<br>
enforce abuse,
it enforces that
the abuse<br>
<br>
contact is
there, and
works.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today<br>
<br>
AFRINIC is
paying for the
cost of the
abuse<br>
<br>
handling because
only a tiny
fraction of the<br>
<br>
members has the
abuse contacts
in place.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If the<br>
<br>
contacts in the
RIR database
aren?t actual<br>
<br>
and accurate,
this is a clear
violation of<br>
<br>
the RSA. So what
is unacceptable
is not<br>
<br>
having the
contacts, not on
the other way<br>
<br>
around.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Abuse is<br>
<br>
not defined by
the RIRs,
everybody knows
it<br>
<br>
and this is the
reason why NONE
of the RIRs<br>
<br>
have re-defined
it, because it
is already<br>
<br>
stated in
RFC2142. Can you
justify why<br>
<br>
AFRINIC is
different and
need a
definition?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How you<br>
<br>
define it in the
networks that
you operate?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 17/9/20<br>
<br>
10:49, "Lamiaa
Chnayti" <<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
will have to
agree with
Lucilla on what<br>
<br>
she said and
would like to
add to it that<br>
<br>
:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Firstly, Abuse<br>
<br>
enforcement is
out of scope for
RIRs.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Secondly, RIRs<br>
<br>
have no ability
to define what
is ?abuse?,<br>
<br>
one abuse or
even criminal
activity could<br>
<br>
be entirely a
legal operation
in a<br>
<br>
different
jurisdiction.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally, making<br>
<br>
a member
forcefully reply
to abuse contact<br>
<br>
Emails are a
waste of
resources and<br>
<br>
totally
pointless, it is
entirely up to<br>
<br>
the member to
define what they
think is<br>
<br>
acceptable in
their network
operation and<br>
<br>
how they react
to it. AFRINIC
has no<br>
<br>
mandate to force
any member to
reply to an<br>
<br>
?abuse?, since
AFRINIC doesn?t
even have<br>
<br>
the ability to
identify what is
considered<br>
<br>
an abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Therefore the<br>
<br>
entire policy is
out of scope for
the RIR<br>
<br>
operation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le jeu. 17<br>
<br>
sept. 2020 ?
07:42, JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ<br>
<br>
via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi<br>
<br>
Lucilla,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today<br>
<br>
we already have
mnt-IRT, and<br>
<br>
everybody who
operate networks<br>
<br>
understand what
it is an abuse.
If<br>
<br>
you operate
networks you
know that
*anything*<br>
<br>
which is a
non-authorized
use of a<br>
<br>
network is an
abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
<br>
you send spam,
attack networks,
try<br>
<br>
to intrude
networks, etc.,
all those<br>
<br>
are abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What<br>
<br>
the policy ask
is to make sure
that<br>
<br>
in AFRINIC
everybody has an
abuse<br>
<br>
contact (today
we have mnt-IRT,
but<br>
<br>
is not
mandatory, and
as a results<br>
<br>
many African
networks are
filtered<br>
<br>
because lack of
that ? and<br>
<br>
consequently
they do not
respond to<br>
<br>
abuse cases -,
which exist in
all<br>
<br>
the other
regions of the
world).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not having an
abuse<br>
<br>
means more
chances of legal<br>
<br>
actions, more
cost, for both
the<br>
<br>
victims and the
ISPs. Having
that<br>
<br>
means that you
have more
chances<br>
<br>
to resolve it in
goodfaith.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
One of the *most<br>
<br>
important*
Afrinic missions<br>
<br>
is to have
accuracy on the<br>
<br>
database, which
includes
accuracy<br>
<br>
on the contacts.
We are not<br>
<br>
fulfilling that
in this
situation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Remember that
*all*<br>
<br>
the other RIRs
have already
this<br>
<br>
kind of policy.
This one is like<br>
<br>
the one that has
been implemented<br>
<br>
in APNIC, and
the accuracy of
the<br>
<br>
contacts is now
87.5% as
reported<br>
<br>
this month in
the last APNIC<br>
<br>
meeting. In that
report *none*<br>
<br>
of the members
indicated any of<br>
<br>
the issues that
you indicated<br>
<br>
(didn't happened
as well in the<br>
<br>
other regions).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You know who is<br>
<br>
interested in
not having abuse<br>
<br>
contacts? Those
that use their<br>
<br>
networks for
doing abuse<br>
<br>
(hijacking,
spam, DoS,
intrusions,<br>
<br>
etc.).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you explain
if<br>
<br>
the network that
you operate has<br>
<br>
an abuse contact
an how if one of<br>
<br>
your customes is
trying to<br>
<br>
penetrate my
network or do a
DoS,<br>
<br>
I will be able
to contact you
and<br>
<br>
if you will do
anything or just<br>
<br>
ignore it?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El<br>
<br>
17/9/20 2:21,
"lucilla
fornaro"<br>
<br>
<<a
href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
<br>
all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
have some
concerns about
the<br>
<br>
?Abuse Contact
Policy?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
First<br>
<br>
of all, it does
not offer a<br>
<br>
specific and
regulated<br>
<br>
description of
the term ?abuse?<br>
<br>
and this opens
the door to<br>
<br>
potentially
bigger problems:
a<br>
<br>
surplus of
reports,<br>
<br>
discrimination/legal issues, and<br>
<br>
a waste of
resources.
Around the<br>
<br>
world, we can
perceive what<br>
<br>
abuse is in very
different ways.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Afrinic<br>
<br>
is not entitled
to force members<br>
<br>
to report abuses
and most<br>
<br>
importantly,
this proposal
does<br>
<br>
not represent
Afrinic?s
purpose.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I,<br>
<br>
therefore,
oppose this
policy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank<br>
<br>
you,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lucilla <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
CHNAYTI<br>
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This electronic
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The information
is intended to<br>
<br>
be for the
exclusive use of
the
individual(s)
named above<br>
<br>
and further
non-explicilty
authorized
disclosure,
copying,<br>
<br>
distribution or
use of the
contents of this
information,<br>
<br>
even if
partially,
including
attached files,
is strictly<br>
<br>
prohibited and
will be
considered a
criminal
offense. If you<br>
<br>
are not the
intended
recipient be
aware that any
disclosure,<br>
<br>
copying,
distribution or
use of the
contents of this<br>
<br>
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached files,
is<br>
<br>
strictly
prohibited, will
be considered a
criminal
offense,<br>
<br>
so you must
reply to the
original sender
to inform about<br>
<br>
this
communication
and delete it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<br>
<br>
<a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<br>
<a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<br>
<a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Lamiaa CHNAYTI<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list <a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a> <a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready
for the new
Internet ?<br>
<a
href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic
message contains
information
which may be
privileged or
confidential.
The information
is intended to
be for the
exclusive use of
the
individual(s)
named above and
further
non-explicilty
authorized
disclosure,
copying,
distribution or
use of the
contents of this
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached files,
is strictly
prohibited and
will be
considered a
criminal
offense. If you
are not the
intended
recipient be
aware that any
disclosure,
copying,
distribution or
use of the
contents of this
information,
even if
partially,
including
attached files,
is strictly
prohibited, will
be considered a
criminal
offense, so you
must reply to
the original
sender to inform
about this
communication
and delete it.<br>
<br>
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<br>
Subject: Digest
Footer<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
End of RPD
Digest, Vol 168,
Issue 143<br>
*************************************</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:141.6pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the
new Internet ?<br>
<a
href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message
contains information
which may be privileged
or confidential. The
information is intended
to be for the exclusive
use of the individual(s)
named above and further
non-explicilty
authorized disclosure,
copying, distribution or
use of the contents of
this information, even
if partially, including
attached files, is
strictly prohibited and
will be considered a
criminal offense. If you
are not the intended
recipient be aware that
any disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of
the contents of this
information, even if
partially, including
attached files, is
strictly prohibited,
will be considered a
criminal offense, so you
must reply to the
original sender to
inform about this
communication and delete
it.</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:141.6pt"> </p>
<pre style="margin-left:141.6pt">_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre style="margin-left:141.6pt">RPD mailing list</pre>
<pre style="margin-left:141.6pt"><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:141.6pt"><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:141.6pt">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list <a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new
Internet ?<br>
<a
href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains
information which may be
privileged or confidential. The
information is intended to be
for the exclusive use of the
individual(s) named above and
further non-explicilty
authorized disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of the
contents of this information,
even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly
prohibited and will be
considered a criminal offense.
If you are not the intended
recipient be aware that any
disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of the
contents of this information,
even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly
prohibited, will be considered a
criminal offense, so you must
reply to the original sender to
inform about this communication
and delete it.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list <a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet
?<br>
<a
href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains
information which may be
privileged or confidential. The
information is intended to be for
the exclusive use of the
individual(s) named above and
further non-explicilty authorized
disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of the contents of this
information, even if partially,
including attached files, is
strictly prohibited and will be
considered a criminal offense. If
you are not the intended recipient
be aware that any disclosure,
copying, distribution or use of
the contents of this information,
even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly
prohibited, will be considered a
criminal offense, so you must
reply to the original sender to
inform about this communication
and delete it.</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information
which may be privileged or confidential. The
information is intended to be for the
exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
and further non-explicilty authorized
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
the contents of this information, even if
partially, including attached files, is
strictly prohibited and will be considered a
criminal offense. If you are not the intended
recipient be aware that any disclosure,
copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially,
including attached files, is strictly
prohibited, will be considered a criminal
offense, so you must reply to the original
sender to inform about this communication and
delete it.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may
be privileged or confidential. The information is
intended to be for the exclusive use of the
individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty
authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
the contents of this information, even if partially,
including attached files, is strictly prohibited and
will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not
the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure,
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
information, even if partially, including attached
files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a
criminal offense, so you must reply to the original
sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br>
<br>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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