+1 Gaby. <div><br></div><div>I do not see how this is a fake problem. I noticed that during the meeting and also currently they has been a focus on the keyword business as it is being used in the proposal. Let's stop by hypocritical. Everything still balls down to business need. I connected to the meetings and I paid for my Internet subscription is that not the end point of resources and is it not business at the end of the day?. Different keywords words can be used to analyse a problem or research statement but that does not void the validity of the research. <br><br>On Friday, September 25, 2020, Gaby Giner <<a href="mailto:gabyginernetwork@gmail.com" target="_blank">gabyginernetwork@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Dear Marcus,</font><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. </font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial" class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">1. The
Policy “Resource Transfer Policy” (AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT01) proposed by
Anthony Ikechukwu Ubah and Taiwo Oyewande is based on a fake problem for our
region.<u><span></span></u></font></span></i></p>
<p><span lang="EN-MY"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">= How is this based on a “fake”
problem when it is factually not even mentioned/addressed in the CPM? I think
that it’s a very good thing that Anthony and Taiwo brought this issue up.</font></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial" class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">2. And so
what? This was an intra-RIR transfer policy, not meant to be Inter-RIR<u><span></span></u></font></span></i></p>
<p><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US">= As</span><span lang="EN-MY"> Marcus said, this
WAS (emphasis on the past) an intra-RIR transfer policy, and I think it’s about time AFRINIC prepare for the future by getting ready for inter-RIR transfers when resources are
already scarce. There is no denying it - we need resources coming from outside the AFRINIC region
when our own resources are about to be used up.</span></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial" class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">3. Can the
authors of the policy show how the current situation is “hindering smooth
business operation?”<u><span></span></u></font></span></i></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">= I’m not the author but I think “hindering smooth business
operation” is pretty much self-explanatory in the proposal’s preamble summary
when the CPM doesn’t specifically address inter-RIR transfers. This
would create or leave room for arbitrary interpretation by anyone who is
against or in favor of the inter-RIR transfer proposal. Thus, an explicitly written clause would put this arbitral speculation to a stop.</font></span></p>
<p><i><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">4. Basically, the Resource Transfer Policy is intended to take
Internet Resources on one region to the other. We all know that Africa is at
its developing stage and needs more internet resources to support its
developmental process. Accepting this policy means that the little resources
left in our region will be taken away, especially when we don’t have the
mechanism in place to enforce the auditing of the use of the allocated
resources.<u><span></span></u></font></span></i></p>
<p><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><i><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US">= </span></i><span lang="EN-US">With the resources being scarce and be used up, I think it’s all the more reason to implement the inter-RIR transfer
policy. That way, resources from other regions may continue to circulate within
the AFRINIC region and the community can continue using them.</span></font></p><p><i><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">5. Moreover,
any unmanaged inter-RIR transfer policy will weaken the development of the
Internet in the region as we have no control over this global market which
never played in our favor. It may also affect AFRINIC operations.</font></span></i></p>
<p><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><i><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US">= </span></i><span lang="EN-US">I think the opposite may actually benefit AFRINIC rather
than weakening it. Provided, of course, that it is done in accordance with the mutual agreement
of the parties involved in the transaction and the relevant RIRs.</span></font></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">I, for one, think that this proposal is proposed properly within the scope of the CPM.<span></span></font></span></p></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Thanks, Gaby.<br><br></font></div></div></div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br></font><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 9:17 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey <<a href="mailto:madomey@hotmail.com" target="_blank">madomey@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></font></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">
Dear all,
</font><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">The Policy “Resource Transfer Policy” (AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT01) proposed by Anthony Ikechukwu Ubah and Taiwo Oyewande is based on a fake problem for our region.</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">(1) “The current policy fails to support a two-way Inter-RIR policy” – And so what? This was an intra-RIR transfer policy, not meant to be Inter-RIR</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">(2) “there by hindering smooth business operation”</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Can the authors of the policy show how the current situation is “hindering smooth business operation?”</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Further, they should tell us what they mean by “smooth business operation”.</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">(3) “development and growth in the region”</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Can the authors of the policy prove that the current status is hindering “development and growth in the region”?</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">It is clear that the authors of the policy have used unsubstantiated claims to buttress the need for this policy.</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Basically, the Resource Transfer Policy is intended to take Internet Resources on one region to the other. We all know that Africa is at its developing stage and needs more internet resources to support its developmental process. Accepting this policy
means that the little resources left in our region will be taken away, especially when we don’t have the mechanism in place to enforce the auditing of the use of the allocated resources.</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Moreover, any unmanaged inter-RIR transfer policy will weaken the development of the Internet in the region as we have no control over this global market which never played in our favor. It may also affect AFRINIC operations.</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Recent findings discussed on this list show how transferred resources are being used. The global community is yet to discuss the impact on transfer. I am more concerned for our region.</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Reconsider your decision and let us discuss the best approach to engage the Region into the global resources transfer world.</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Marcus</font></div>
<font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
<br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
</font><div dir="ltr"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Murungi Daniel <<a href="mailto:dmurungi@wia.co.tz" target="_blank">dmurungi@wia.co.tz</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 23, 2020 8:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> rpd >> AfriNIC Resource Policy <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Transfer Policy Proposal v.3.docx</font>
</font><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"> </font></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Hello,</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Can the authors of the resource transfer policy in the last call explain, which problem is being addressed?<br>
<br>
The problem statement is awkward to say the least. The issue with the problem statement was raised in Luanda and during the virtual AIS. How can we can adopt a proposal when the problem statement is out of scope of the PDP?<br>
<br>
——-<br>
1. Summary of the problem being addressed by this proposal<br>
The current policy fails to support a two-way Inter-RIR policy, thereby hindering smooth business operation, development, and growth in the region. This proposal aims to establish an efficient and business-friendly mechanism to allow a number of resources to
be transferred from/to other regions. This proposal outlines a model in which AFRINIC can freely transfer number resources to/from other regions, i.e. RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN and LACNIC. This includes both IPv4 addresses and AS numbers.<br>
——-<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Regards,</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
Murungi Daniel</font></div>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font><blockquote type="cite">
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">On Sep 23, 2020, at 10:39 PM, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</font></div>
<font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
</font><div>
<div>
<p><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Hello</font></p>
<p><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">There is no much I can do other than state my <b>opposition to this proposal</b> to advance and reach any consensus mainly because 5.7.4.3 has been inverted from what was originally in the proposal and only changed at last minute due to
some comments in the PPM going straight to last call which didn't give opportunity to the community re-evaluate this major change and if it's suitable to the region or not.</font></p>
<p><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Co-Chairs cannot advance this proposal to rough consensus the way it is and I urge and ask them again to bring it back to discussion to find out a resolution to these opened issues. Multiple people raised substantial concerns about it already. There
is no way it can be considered 'rough consensus'.</font></p>
<p><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">I also understand there may be a hurry to get a Inter-RIR transfer policy as soon as possible, but we must care about what is most important than that which is get policies to reflect what is really good for the region and not just to a few actors,
even if it takes a bit longer. I support Jordi's suggestion to have another PPM in a few months so perhaps this proposal can advance from that point in time. LACNIC remained about 2 years without a Inter-RIR transfer policy after it run out of addresses for
new organizations and survived. AfriNic will survive if it has to wait a few more months in order to get things really right.</font></p>
<p><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Now going to the merit of the proposal specially the main point I oppose (5.7.4.3):<br>
There is no sense at all to keep considering transferred legacy resources as legacy. This doesn't work that way and has a proper reason to be like that which is fix a historical internet problem and reduce legacy resources with time as they get transferred
to 'normal' organizations who purchased them in the market for example.<br>
In this way organizations receiving these resources are bind to the same rules everybody else making it much fair to everybody and making no distinction between members.<br>
Allowing resources to remain considered legacy only contributed to abuses and unfairness allowing those who can pay more do whatever they like which is bad for the rest of the Internet community which are subject to the same rules that apply equally to them.<br>
If transferred legacy resources are not considered legacy anymore more and more they will apply equally for everybody as they become as a normal resource within any RIR. There has been a strong reason for this be like that until now and to continue like that.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Regards<br>
Fernando<br>
</font></p>
<div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">On 23/09/2020 09:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:<br>
</font></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Hi Taiwo, all,
I've looked into the doc.
Let me say something before going into a more detailed analysis: I *fully support* this proposal, and I will be happy to withdraw it once:
1) The staff confirms that all the points on the staff analysis have been cleared and thus, the policy could be implemented and will be functional in the intended purpose.
2) The board ratifies the policy (which means also it passes the last call).
Why? If anything in the process fails, I still believe my proposal is clearer and never mind is my proposal or this one I'm happy to work with the authors to make sure to resolve the issues that may happen as indicated in 1 and 2 above (hopefully there are no issues).
I've now a more detailed analysis, please really, needs to be taken seriously with the staff or we may ruin the policy and not allow to be functional.
There is something which doesn't make sense: The text in point 5.7. The CPM should be read always as "actual" so "soon will exhaust ..." is not logic, neither needed for the purpose of this policy. In addition, there are typos there ...
This is an editorial change that according to the PDP should be possible as part of the last call. I will suggest to keep it simple:
5.7 IPv4 Resources transfer
This policy applies to an organization with a justified need for IPv4 resources (recipients) and organizations with IPv4 resources which no longer need (sources).
I see that the "disputes" issue has been resolved! Tks! Anyway, I think there is another editorial problem there.
Actual text:
5.7.3.1 The source must be the current rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources registered with any RIR, and shall be in compliance with the policies of the receiving RIR, and shall not be involved in any dispute as to the status of those resources.
I suggest:
5.7.3.1 The source must be the current rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources registered with any RIR, in compliance with the relevant policies, and shall not be involved in any dispute as to the status of those resources.
Keeping the "policies of the receiving RIR" is contradictory ... changing it with "relevant policies" allows both RIRs to ensure that everything is correct.
Grammar maybe, I'm not English native speaker:
"for 12 months period" or "for a 12 months period"
I think 5.7.3.3. doesn't add any value, it could be removed and doesn't change anything: if there is no limite, no need to mention it. If there is not agreement, clearly the transfer will not happen because the parties don't authorize it, and then the RIR(s) don't authorize it!
Similarly 5.7.4.2. could be removed as well. We already said that the recipient should comply with policies (5.7.3.1), so what is this adding? Just superfluous text.
Note also my imputs in the previous email, regarding the hold period and the legacy status. I think 5.7.4.3, should be "IPv4 legacy resources "Transferred incoming or within AFRINIC IPv4 legacy resources will no longer be regarded as legacy resources".
5.7.5.1 is already indicated by the staff as something problematic with the actual wording. The transferring party (the source) may not have any relation (not a member) with the receiving RIR. With this text we are enforcing *all the RIRs* to offer a standard template and process on our mandate. WE CAN'T DO THAT. Our policies only have a mandate in AFRINIC, not in the other RIRs.
If we just remove section 5.7.5, and leave it to the staff as part of the operational procedure, the the problem is resolved because the existing process among the all other 4 RIRs for transfers will be "joined" by AFRINIC. It is just a matter of interconection among systems and processes!
I think all this should be carefully studied among the authors and the staff and the chairs should make sure that the verstion coming to last call has corrected all those issues.
I hope all this is useful.
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 23/9/20 9:38, "Taiwo Oyewande" <a href="mailto:taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com" target="_blank"><taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com></a> escribió:
Hello PDWG,
Attached is the updated version of the Resource Transfer Policy proposal. As recommended, changes have been effected on sub-section 5.7.3.2, and 5.7.4.3 according to the co-chair summary.
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</font></pre>
</blockquote>
</div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">
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</blockquote>
</div>
<font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>
<br>
</font></div>
</div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">
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</blockquote>
</div><br><br>-- <br>Kind regards, <p>Paschal.<br></p>