<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Fernando, <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"When LACNIC transitioned from Phase 2 to Phase 3 of the exhaustion phases which is very similar to what just happened to AfriNic Phase 2, it took exactly <b class="">3 years and 6 months</b> for it to be completely empty”. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">According to what you are insinuating, it is preferable not to do anything about the resources which are still going to exhaust. Thats makes no sense, it will be better if preparations are made prior to the entire exhaustion of the resources. LACNIC might have lasted 3 years and 6months before it completely emptied that does not mean we should take the same route as them, you learn from others not entirely copy their system or mode of handling things.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Additionally, “good or not organisation survived, found their way to work with this new scenario now there is a proper and well discussed proposal that works well for everybody and allow in and out transfer from ALL other RIRs”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The fact that the organisation survived does not 100% imply that if the same system of waiting till everything ends entirely is applied, AFRINIC will survive. It is best to take early necessary precautions and not wait till when we are in a desperate and maybe unsurvivable state before we do something. Also, this proposal is well detailed and works. Waiting for many more years and years of discussion is just compounding the staffs of the AFRINIC organisation and the community with excessive work as well. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regarding the legacy resource holders, it is better to have a dedicated legacy proposal for them and work with them not forcing them to lose their legacy status. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Elvis</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Consider that LACNIC has a much higher demand than AfriNic and during most of these 3 years it survived without a Inter-RIR policy that was discussed for quiet a while before it reached consensus, plus the time it took for it to be implemented by staff which happened just recently in middle of this year.On Sep 26, 2020, at 11:39, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
  
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
  
  <div class=""><p class="">A couple of information for those who are scary about "the pool
      be empty shortly".</p><p class="">When LACNIC transitioned from Phase 2 to Phase 3 of the
      exhaustion phases which is very similar to what just happened to
      AfriNic Phase 2, it took exactly <b class="">3 years and 6 months</b> for
      it to be completely empty. <br class="">
      Consider that LACNIC has a much higher demand than AfriNic and
      during most of these 3 years it survived without a Inter-RIR
      policy that was discussed for quiet a while before it reached
      consensus, plus the time it took for it to be implemented by staff
      which happened just recently in middle of this year.</p><p class="">Good or not organizations survived, found their way to work with
      this new scenario e now there is a proper and well discussed
      proposal that work well for everybody and allow in and out
      transfer from ALL other RIRs. And by the way legacy resources lose
      its status like is expected. <br class="">
      And by the way, there is absolutely no "fight" with legacy
      resource holders, not at all. They don't care what will happen
      when they sell their resources on sold. Whoever is buying are not
      really much interested in this status, but in acquiring them for
      their usage and that's it.<br class="">
    </p><p class="">AfriNic can take some more time, specially in the current
      uncertainty scenario to get a proper and better discussed proposal
      that will in fact be reciprocal to all other RIRs and benefit the
      region to keep going after the pool is completely empty which
      still takes some time.</p><p class="">Fernando<br class="">
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25/09/2020 22:08, lucilla fornaro
      wrote:<br class="">
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAKJg62+M+tiJvh65ywHma+81ecdx7jzvy0Ahw70zimTMcTZ==Q@mail.gmail.com" class="">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
      <div dir="ltr" class="">
        <div dir="ltr" class="">
          <div class="">Dear all,</div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class="">Accepting this policy implies that AFRINIC will develop a
            way to get even more resources to satisfy and push the
            demand of the developing market. </div>
          <div class="">We often talked about smoother business (why the
            community is so scared about this word?) operations, the
            policy does not facilitate any fraud. All resources are
            allocated and transferred in the base of a proven need. It
            is an expensive process, and it is reasonable to think that
            no one would operate a fraud that causes loss instead of
            benefits.</div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class="">Yes, shortly the pool will be empty, but the policy
            proposes a way to fight it and promote access to further
            resources before it's too late.</div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class="">regards,</div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class="">Lucilla</div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br class="">
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno sab 26 set 2020 alle
          ore 09:49 Ibeanusi Elvis <<a href="mailto:ibeanusielvis@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">ibeanusielvis@gmail.com</a>>
          ha scritto:<br class="">
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Dear Marcus, Dear
            Community, 
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class="">I do not concur with your analogy and accusations on
              the proposal or policy written  by Anthony Ikechukwu Ubah
              and Taiwo Oyewande called “Resource Transfer Policy” as
              being a hindrance to the smooth operation of business, is
              entirely false. The major intention of this policy is to
              support and boost businesses i Africa not to hinder the
              operation of business.</div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class="">Likewise, the policy is not based on a fake problem of
              the African region. This is baseless accusation and a
              wrong self-interpretation of what factual intentions of
              the Resource Transfer Policy, Anthony and Taiwo should be
              appreciated for pointing out this issue. </div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class="">On the other hand, "<i class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class="">Basically, the Resource
                    Transfer Policy is intended to take Internet
                    Resources on one region to the other. We all know
                    that Africa is at its developing stage and needs
                    more internet resources to support its developmental
                    process. Accepting this policy means that the little
                    resources left in our region will be taken away,
                    especially when we don’t have the mechanism in place
                    to enforce the auditing of the use of the allocated
                    resources.</font></span></i><font face="tahoma,
                sans-serif" class=""><i class="">”</i></font></div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class=""><i class="">The purpose of this
                  policy is to support a “TWO-WAY INTER-RIR POLICY”
                  which implies that AFRINIC can receive and transfer
                  resources. With the exhaustion of the IPv4, the
                  adoption of this policy will do a greater good to the
                  African continent as it supports the circulation of
                  resources into and out of all the RIRs </i></font></div>
            <div class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class=""><i class=""><br class="">
                </i></font></div>
            <div class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class=""><i class="">Best, </i></font></div>
            <div class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class=""><i class="">Elvis</i></font></div>
            <div class="">
              <div class="">
                <div class=""><br class="">
                  <div class="">
                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                      <div class="">On Sep 26, 2020, at 02:24, Taiwo Oyewande
                        <<a href="mailto:taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com</a>>
                        wrote:</div>
                      <br class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <div dir="auto" class="">
                          <div dir="ltr" class="">Hi all,
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">Discussing a problem statement that
                              will not be implemented in the CPM is not
                              really taking us forward. </div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">There is an obvious war against the co
                              chairs for doing a job that the community
                              mandated them to do by the status of their
                              election. The co-chairs discussed each
                              points raised with the various authors and
                              tried to see if all the points were duly
                              addressed before making their decisions. </div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">I saw a false and misleading statement
                              about the cochairs trying to get the
                              authors of 2 of the 3 related policies
                              against the authors of the 3rd policy. Is
                              this what members of this working group
                              has turned to?</div>
                            <div class="">Trying to create a bad name for another
                              member using scenarios that never
                              occurred. I think that is the height of
                              desperation and such defamation of
                              character should not be encouraged on this
                              list</div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                              <div dir="ltr" class="">Taiwo</div>
                              <div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
                                <blockquote type="cite" class="">On 25 Sep 2020,
                                  at 14:17, Marcus K. G. Adomey <<a href="mailto:madomey@hotmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">madomey@hotmail.com</a>>
                                  wrote:<br class="">
                                  <br class="">
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                              <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                <div dir="ltr" class="">
                                  <div id="gmail-m_1467110844684016632appendonsend" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
                                    Dear all,
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">The Policy “Resource Transfer
                                      Policy”
                                      (AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT01)
                                      proposed by Anthony Ikechukwu Ubah
                                      and Taiwo Oyewande is based on a
                                      fake problem for our region.</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">(1) “The current policy fails
                                      to support a two-way Inter-RIR
                                      policy” – And so what? This was an
                                      intra-RIR transfer policy, not
                                      meant to be Inter-RIR</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">(2) “there by hindering smooth
                                      business operation”</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">Can the authors of the policy
                                      show how the current situation is
                                      “hindering smooth business
                                      operation?”</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">Further, they should tell us
                                      what they mean by “smooth business
                                      operation”.</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">(3) “development and growth in
                                      the region”</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">Can the authors of the policy
                                      prove that the current status is
                                      hindering “development and growth
                                      in the region”?</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">It is clear that the authors of
                                      the policy have used
                                      unsubstantiated claims to buttress
                                      the need for this policy.</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">Basically, the Resource
                                      Transfer Policy is intended to
                                      take Internet Resources on one
                                      region to the other. We all know
                                      that Africa is at its developing
                                      stage and needs more internet
                                      resources to support its
                                      developmental process. Accepting
                                      this policy means that the little
                                      resources left in our region will
                                      be taken away, especially when we
                                      don’t have the mechanism in place
                                      to enforce the auditing of the use
                                      of the allocated resources.</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">Moreover, any unmanaged
                                      inter-RIR transfer policy will
                                      weaken the development of the
                                      Internet in the region as we have
                                      no control over this global market
                                      which never played in our favor.
                                      It may also affect AFRINIC
                                      operations.</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">Recent findings discussed on
                                      this list show how transferred
                                      resources are being used. The
                                      global community is yet to discuss
                                      the impact on transfer. I am more
                                      concerned for our region.</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">Reconsider your decision and
                                      let us discuss the best approach
                                      to engage the Region into the
                                      global resources transfer world.</div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="">Marcus</div>
                                    <br class="">
                                    <br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
                                    <br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
                                    <br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
                                    <br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" class="">
                                  <div id="gmail-m_1467110844684016632divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><b class="">From:</b>
                                      Murungi Daniel <<a href="mailto:dmurungi@wia.co.tz" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">dmurungi@wia.co.tz</a>><br class="">
                                      <b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, September
                                      23, 2020 8:59 PM<br class="">
                                      <b class="">To:</b> rpd >> AfriNIC
                                      Resource Policy <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">
                                      <b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Transfer
                                      Policy Proposal v.3.docx</font>
                                    <div class=""> </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">
                                    <div class=""><font size="2" class="">Hello,</font></div>
                                    <div class=""><font size="2" class=""><br class="">
                                      </font></div>
                                    <div class=""><font size="2" class="">Can the authors
                                        of the resource transfer policy
                                        in the last call explain, which
                                        problem is being addressed?<br class="">
                                        <br class="">
                                        The problem statement is awkward
                                        to say the least. The issue with
                                        the problem statement was raised
                                        in Luanda and during the virtual
                                        AIS. How can we can adopt a
                                        proposal when the
                                        problem statement is out of
                                        scope of the PDP?<br class="">
                                        <br class="">
                                        ——-<br class="">
                                        1. Summary of the problem being
                                        addressed by this proposal<br class="">
                                        The current policy fails to
                                        support a two-way Inter-RIR
                                        policy, thereby hindering smooth
                                        business operation, development,
                                        and growth in the region. This
                                        proposal aims to establish an
                                        efficient and business-friendly
                                        mechanism to allow a number of
                                        resources to be transferred
                                        from/to other regions. This
                                        proposal outlines a model in
                                        which AFRINIC can freely
                                        transfer number resources
                                        to/from other regions, i.e. RIPE
                                        NCC, APNIC, ARIN and LACNIC.
                                        This includes both
                                        IPv4 addresses and AS numbers.<br class="">
                                        ——-<br class="">
                                        <br class="">
                                        <br class="">
                                      </font></div>
                                    <div class=""><font size="2" class="">Regards,</font></div>
                                    <div class=""><font size="2" class=""><br class="">
                                        Murungi Daniel</font></div>
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                    </div>
                                    <br class="">
                                    <div class=""><br class="">
                                      <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                        <div class="">On Sep 23, 2020, at 10:39
                                          PM, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
                                          wrote:</div>
                                        <br class="">
                                        <div class="">
                                          <div class=""><p class="">Hello</p><p class="">There is no much I can do
                                              other than state my <b class="">opposition
                                                to this proposal</b> to
                                              advance and reach any
                                              consensus mainly because
                                              5.7.4.3 has been inverted
                                              from what was originally
                                              in the proposal and only
                                              changed at last minute due
                                              to some comments in the
                                              PPM going straight to last
                                              call which didn't give
                                              opportunity to the
                                              community re-evaluate this
                                              major change and if it's
                                              suitable to the region or
                                              not.</p><p class="">Co-Chairs cannot advance
                                              this proposal to rough
                                              consensus the way it is
                                              and I urge and ask them
                                              again to bring it back to
                                              discussion to find out a
                                              resolution to these opened
                                              issues. Multiple people
                                              raised substantial
                                              concerns about it already.
                                              There is no way it can be
                                              considered 'rough
                                              consensus'.</p><p class="">I also understand there
                                              may be a hurry to get a
                                              Inter-RIR transfer policy
                                              as soon as possible, but
                                              we must care about what is
                                              most important than that
                                              which is get policies to
                                              reflect what is really
                                              good for the region and
                                              not just to a few actors,
                                              even if it takes a bit
                                              longer. I support Jordi's
                                              suggestion to have another
                                              PPM in a few months so
                                              perhaps this proposal can
                                              advance from that point in
                                              time. LACNIC remained
                                              about 2 years without a
                                              Inter-RIR transfer policy
                                              after it run out of
                                              addresses for new
                                              organizations and
                                              survived. AfriNic will
                                              survive if it has to wait
                                              a few more months in order
                                              to get things really
                                              right.</p><p class="">Now going to the merit of
                                              the proposal specially the
                                              main point I oppose
                                              (5.7.4.3):<br class="">
                                              There is no sense at all
                                              to keep considering
                                              transferred legacy
                                              resources as legacy. This
                                              doesn't work that way and
                                              has a proper reason to be
                                              like that which is fix a
                                              historical internet
                                              problem and reduce legacy
                                              resources with time as
                                              they get transferred to
                                              'normal' organizations who
                                              purchased them in the
                                              market for example.<br class="">
                                              In this way organizations
                                              receiving these resources
                                              are bind to the same rules
                                              everybody else making it
                                              much fair to everybody and
                                              making no distinction
                                              between members.<br class="">
                                              Allowing resources to
                                              remain considered legacy
                                              only contributed to abuses
                                              and unfairness allowing
                                              those who can pay more do
                                              whatever they like which
                                              is bad for the rest of the
                                              Internet community which
                                              are subject to the same
                                              rules  that apply equally
                                              to them.<br class="">
                                              If transferred legacy
                                              resources are not
                                              considered legacy anymore
                                              more and more they will
                                              apply equally for
                                              everybody as they become
                                              as a normal resource
                                              within any RIR. There has
                                              been a strong reason for
                                              this be like that until
                                              now and to continue like
                                              that.<br class="">
                                            </p><p class="">Regards<br class="">
                                              Fernando<br class="">
                                            </p>
                                            <div class="">On 23/09/2020 09:49,
                                              JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
                                              RPD wrote:<br class="">
                                            </div>
                                            <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                              <pre class="">Hi Taiwo, all,

I've looked into the doc.

Let me say something before going into a more detailed analysis: I *fully support* this proposal, and I will be happy to withdraw it once:
1) The staff confirms that all the points on the staff analysis have been cleared and thus, the policy could be implemented and will be functional in the intended purpose.
2) The board ratifies the policy (which means also it passes the last call).

Why? If anything in the process fails, I still believe my proposal is clearer and never mind is my proposal or this one I'm happy to work with the authors to make sure to resolve the issues that may happen as indicated in 1 and 2 above (hopefully there are no issues).

I've now a more detailed analysis, please really, needs to be taken seriously with the staff or we may ruin the policy and not allow to be functional.

There is something which doesn't make sense: The text in point 5.7. The CPM should be read always as "actual" so "soon will exhaust ..." is not logic, neither needed for the purpose of this policy. In addition, there are typos there ...

This is an editorial change that according to the PDP should be possible as part of the last call. I will suggest to keep it simple:
5.7 IPv4 Resources transfer
This policy applies to an organization with a justified need for IPv4 resources (recipients) and organizations with IPv4 resources which no longer need (sources).

I see that the "disputes" issue has been resolved! Tks! Anyway, I think there is another editorial problem there.
Actual text:
5.7.3.1 The source must be the current rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources registered with any RIR, and shall be in compliance with the policies of the receiving RIR, and shall not be involved in any dispute as to the status of those resources.

I suggest:
5.7.3.1 The source must be the current rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources registered with any RIR, in compliance with the relevant policies, and shall not be involved in any dispute as to the status of those resources.

Keeping the "policies of the receiving RIR" is contradictory ... changing it with "relevant policies" allows both RIRs to ensure that everything is correct.

Grammar maybe, I'm not English native speaker:
"for 12 months period" or "for a 12 months period"

I think 5.7.3.3. doesn't add any value, it could be removed and doesn't change anything: if there is no limite, no need to mention it. If there is not agreement, clearly the transfer will not happen because the parties don't authorize it, and then the RIR(s) don't authorize it!

Similarly 5.7.4.2. could be removed as well. We already said that the recipient should comply with policies (5.7.3.1), so what is this adding? Just superfluous text.

Note also my imputs in the previous email, regarding the hold period and the legacy status. I think 5.7.4.3, should be "IPv4 legacy resources "Transferred incoming or within AFRINIC IPv4 legacy resources will no longer be regarded as legacy resources".

5.7.5.1 is already indicated by the staff as something problematic with the actual wording. The transferring party (the source) may not have any relation (not a member) with the receiving RIR. With this text we are enforcing *all the RIRs* to offer a standard template and process on our mandate. WE CAN'T DO THAT. Our policies only have a mandate in AFRINIC, not in the other RIRs.

If we just remove section 5.7.5, and leave it to the staff as part of the operational procedure, the the problem is resolved because the existing process among the all other 4 RIRs for transfers will be "joined" by AFRINIC. It is just a matter of interconection among systems and processes!

I think all this should be carefully studied among the authors and the staff and the chairs should make sure that the verstion coming to last call has corrected all those issues.

I hope all this is useful.
 
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
 
 

El 23/9/20 9:38, "Taiwo Oyewande" <a href="mailto:taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class=""><taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com></a> escribió:

    Hello PDWG,

    Attached is the updated version of the Resource Transfer Policy proposal. As recommended, changes have been effected on sub-section  5.7.3.2, and 5.7.4.3 according to the co-chair summary. 


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