<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Fernando, <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"When LACNIC transitioned from Phase 2 to Phase 3 of the exhaustion phases which is very similar to what just happened to AfriNic Phase 2, it took exactly <b class="">3 years and 6 months</b> for it to be completely empty”. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">According to what you are insinuating, it is preferable not to do anything about the resources which are still going to exhaust. Thats makes no sense, it will be better if preparations are made prior to the entire exhaustion of the resources. LACNIC might have lasted 3 years and 6months before it completely emptied that does not mean we should take the same route as them, you learn from others not entirely copy their system or mode of handling things.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Additionally, “good or not organisation survived, found their way to work with this new scenario now there is a proper and well discussed proposal that works well for everybody and allow in and out transfer from ALL other RIRs”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The fact that the organisation survived does not 100% imply that if the same system of waiting till everything ends entirely is applied, AFRINIC will survive. It is best to take early necessary precautions and not wait till when we are in a desperate and maybe unsurvivable state before we do something. Also, this proposal is well detailed and works. Waiting for many more years and years of discussion is just compounding the staffs of the AFRINIC organisation and the community with excessive work as well. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regarding the legacy resource holders, it is better to have a dedicated legacy proposal for them and work with them not forcing them to lose their legacy status. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Elvis</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Consider that LACNIC has a much higher demand than AfriNic and during most of these 3 years it survived without a Inter-RIR policy that was discussed for quiet a while before it reached consensus, plus the time it took for it to be implemented by staff which happened just recently in middle of this year.On Sep 26, 2020, at 11:39, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">A couple of information for those who are scary about "the pool
be empty shortly".</p><p class="">When LACNIC transitioned from Phase 2 to Phase 3 of the
exhaustion phases which is very similar to what just happened to
AfriNic Phase 2, it took exactly <b class="">3 years and 6 months</b> for
it to be completely empty. <br class="">
Consider that LACNIC has a much higher demand than AfriNic and
during most of these 3 years it survived without a Inter-RIR
policy that was discussed for quiet a while before it reached
consensus, plus the time it took for it to be implemented by staff
which happened just recently in middle of this year.</p><p class="">Good or not organizations survived, found their way to work with
this new scenario e now there is a proper and well discussed
proposal that work well for everybody and allow in and out
transfer from ALL other RIRs. And by the way legacy resources lose
its status like is expected. <br class="">
And by the way, there is absolutely no "fight" with legacy
resource holders, not at all. They don't care what will happen
when they sell their resources on sold. Whoever is buying are not
really much interested in this status, but in acquiring them for
their usage and that's it.<br class="">
</p><p class="">AfriNic can take some more time, specially in the current
uncertainty scenario to get a proper and better discussed proposal
that will in fact be reciprocal to all other RIRs and benefit the
region to keep going after the pool is completely empty which
still takes some time.</p><p class="">Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25/09/2020 22:08, lucilla fornaro
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAKJg62+M+tiJvh65ywHma+81ecdx7jzvy0Ahw70zimTMcTZ==Q@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Dear all,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Accepting this policy implies that AFRINIC will develop a
way to get even more resources to satisfy and push the
demand of the developing market. </div>
<div class="">We often talked about smoother business (why the
community is so scared about this word?) operations, the
policy does not facilitate any fraud. All resources are
allocated and transferred in the base of a proven need. It
is an expensive process, and it is reasonable to think that
no one would operate a fraud that causes loss instead of
benefits.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Yes, shortly the pool will be empty, but the policy
proposes a way to fight it and promote access to further
resources before it's too late.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">regards,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Lucilla</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno sab 26 set 2020 alle
ore 09:49 Ibeanusi Elvis <<a href="mailto:ibeanusielvis@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">ibeanusielvis@gmail.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Dear Marcus, Dear
Community,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I do not concur with your analogy and accusations on
the proposal or policy written by Anthony Ikechukwu Ubah
and Taiwo Oyewande called “Resource Transfer Policy” as
being a hindrance to the smooth operation of business, is
entirely false. The major intention of this policy is to
support and boost businesses i Africa not to hinder the
operation of business.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Likewise, the policy is not based on a fake problem of
the African region. This is baseless accusation and a
wrong self-interpretation of what factual intentions of
the Resource Transfer Policy, Anthony and Taiwo should be
appreciated for pointing out this issue. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">On the other hand, "<i class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class="">Basically, the Resource
Transfer Policy is intended to take Internet
Resources on one region to the other. We all know
that Africa is at its developing stage and needs
more internet resources to support its developmental
process. Accepting this policy means that the little
resources left in our region will be taken away,
especially when we don’t have the mechanism in place
to enforce the auditing of the use of the allocated
resources.</font></span></i><font face="tahoma,
sans-serif" class=""><i class="">”</i></font></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class=""><i class="">The purpose of this
policy is to support a “TWO-WAY INTER-RIR POLICY”
which implies that AFRINIC can receive and transfer
resources. With the exhaustion of the IPv4, the
adoption of this policy will do a greater good to the
African continent as it supports the circulation of
resources into and out of all the RIRs </i></font></div>
<div class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class=""><i class=""><br class="">
</i></font></div>
<div class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class=""><i class="">Best, </i></font></div>
<div class=""><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" class=""><i class="">Elvis</i></font></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 26, 2020, at 02:24, Taiwo Oyewande
<<a href="mailto:taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hi all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Discussing a problem statement that
will not be implemented in the CPM is not
really taking us forward. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There is an obvious war against the co
chairs for doing a job that the community
mandated them to do by the status of their
election. The co-chairs discussed each
points raised with the various authors and
tried to see if all the points were duly
addressed before making their decisions. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I saw a false and misleading statement
about the cochairs trying to get the
authors of 2 of the 3 related policies
against the authors of the 3rd policy. Is
this what members of this working group
has turned to?</div>
<div class="">Trying to create a bad name for another
member using scenarios that never
occurred. I think that is the height of
desperation and such defamation of
character should not be encouraged on this
list</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Taiwo</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On 25 Sep 2020,
at 14:17, Marcus K. G. Adomey <<a href="mailto:madomey@hotmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">madomey@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div id="gmail-m_1467110844684016632appendonsend" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
Dear all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The Policy “Resource Transfer
Policy”
(AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT01)
proposed by Anthony Ikechukwu Ubah
and Taiwo Oyewande is based on a
fake problem for our region.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(1) “The current policy fails
to support a two-way Inter-RIR
policy” – And so what? This was an
intra-RIR transfer policy, not
meant to be Inter-RIR</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(2) “there by hindering smooth
business operation”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Can the authors of the policy
show how the current situation is
“hindering smooth business
operation?”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Further, they should tell us
what they mean by “smooth business
operation”.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(3) “development and growth in
the region”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Can the authors of the policy
prove that the current status is
hindering “development and growth
in the region”?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It is clear that the authors of
the policy have used
unsubstantiated claims to buttress
the need for this policy.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Basically, the Resource
Transfer Policy is intended to
take Internet Resources on one
region to the other. We all know
that Africa is at its developing
stage and needs more internet
resources to support its
developmental process. Accepting
this policy means that the little
resources left in our region will
be taken away, especially when we
don’t have the mechanism in place
to enforce the auditing of the use
of the allocated resources.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Moreover, any unmanaged
inter-RIR transfer policy will
weaken the development of the
Internet in the region as we have
no control over this global market
which never played in our favor.
It may also affect AFRINIC
operations.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Recent findings discussed on
this list show how transferred
resources are being used. The
global community is yet to discuss
the impact on transfer. I am more
concerned for our region.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Reconsider your decision and
let us discuss the best approach
to engage the Region into the
global resources transfer world.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Marcus</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt" class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" class="">
<div id="gmail-m_1467110844684016632divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><b class="">From:</b>
Murungi Daniel <<a href="mailto:dmurungi@wia.co.tz" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">dmurungi@wia.co.tz</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, September
23, 2020 8:59 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> rpd >> AfriNIC
Resource Policy <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Transfer
Policy Proposal v.3.docx</font>
<div class=""> </div>
</div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">
<div class=""><font size="2" class="">Hello,</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="2" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="2" class="">Can the authors
of the resource transfer policy
in the last call explain, which
problem is being addressed?<br class="">
<br class="">
The problem statement is awkward
to say the least. The issue with
the problem statement was raised
in Luanda and during the virtual
AIS. How can we can adopt a
proposal when the
problem statement is out of
scope of the PDP?<br class="">
<br class="">
——-<br class="">
1. Summary of the problem being
addressed by this proposal<br class="">
The current policy fails to
support a two-way Inter-RIR
policy, thereby hindering smooth
business operation, development,
and growth in the region. This
proposal aims to establish an
efficient and business-friendly
mechanism to allow a number of
resources to be transferred
from/to other regions. This
proposal outlines a model in
which AFRINIC can freely
transfer number resources
to/from other regions, i.e. RIPE
NCC, APNIC, ARIN and LACNIC.
This includes both
IPv4 addresses and AS numbers.<br class="">
——-<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="2" class="">Regards,</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="2" class=""><br class="">
Murungi Daniel</font></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 23, 2020, at 10:39
PM, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Hello</p><p class="">There is no much I can do
other than state my <b class="">opposition
to this proposal</b> to
advance and reach any
consensus mainly because
5.7.4.3 has been inverted
from what was originally
in the proposal and only
changed at last minute due
to some comments in the
PPM going straight to last
call which didn't give
opportunity to the
community re-evaluate this
major change and if it's
suitable to the region or
not.</p><p class="">Co-Chairs cannot advance
this proposal to rough
consensus the way it is
and I urge and ask them
again to bring it back to
discussion to find out a
resolution to these opened
issues. Multiple people
raised substantial
concerns about it already.
There is no way it can be
considered 'rough
consensus'.</p><p class="">I also understand there
may be a hurry to get a
Inter-RIR transfer policy
as soon as possible, but
we must care about what is
most important than that
which is get policies to
reflect what is really
good for the region and
not just to a few actors,
even if it takes a bit
longer. I support Jordi's
suggestion to have another
PPM in a few months so
perhaps this proposal can
advance from that point in
time. LACNIC remained
about 2 years without a
Inter-RIR transfer policy
after it run out of
addresses for new
organizations and
survived. AfriNic will
survive if it has to wait
a few more months in order
to get things really
right.</p><p class="">Now going to the merit of
the proposal specially the
main point I oppose
(5.7.4.3):<br class="">
There is no sense at all
to keep considering
transferred legacy
resources as legacy. This
doesn't work that way and
has a proper reason to be
like that which is fix a
historical internet
problem and reduce legacy
resources with time as
they get transferred to
'normal' organizations who
purchased them in the
market for example.<br class="">
In this way organizations
receiving these resources
are bind to the same rules
everybody else making it
much fair to everybody and
making no distinction
between members.<br class="">
Allowing resources to
remain considered legacy
only contributed to abuses
and unfairness allowing
those who can pay more do
whatever they like which
is bad for the rest of the
Internet community which
are subject to the same
rules that apply equally
to them.<br class="">
If transferred legacy
resources are not
considered legacy anymore
more and more they will
apply equally for
everybody as they become
as a normal resource
within any RIR. There has
been a strong reason for
this be like that until
now and to continue like
that.<br class="">
</p><p class="">Regards<br class="">
Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="">On 23/09/2020 09:49,
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
RPD wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">Hi Taiwo, all,
I've looked into the doc.
Let me say something before going into a more detailed analysis: I *fully support* this proposal, and I will be happy to withdraw it once:
1) The staff confirms that all the points on the staff analysis have been cleared and thus, the policy could be implemented and will be functional in the intended purpose.
2) The board ratifies the policy (which means also it passes the last call).
Why? If anything in the process fails, I still believe my proposal is clearer and never mind is my proposal or this one I'm happy to work with the authors to make sure to resolve the issues that may happen as indicated in 1 and 2 above (hopefully there are no issues).
I've now a more detailed analysis, please really, needs to be taken seriously with the staff or we may ruin the policy and not allow to be functional.
There is something which doesn't make sense: The text in point 5.7. The CPM should be read always as "actual" so "soon will exhaust ..." is not logic, neither needed for the purpose of this policy. In addition, there are typos there ...
This is an editorial change that according to the PDP should be possible as part of the last call. I will suggest to keep it simple:
5.7 IPv4 Resources transfer
This policy applies to an organization with a justified need for IPv4 resources (recipients) and organizations with IPv4 resources which no longer need (sources).
I see that the "disputes" issue has been resolved! Tks! Anyway, I think there is another editorial problem there.
Actual text:
5.7.3.1 The source must be the current rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources registered with any RIR, and shall be in compliance with the policies of the receiving RIR, and shall not be involved in any dispute as to the status of those resources.
I suggest:
5.7.3.1 The source must be the current rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources registered with any RIR, in compliance with the relevant policies, and shall not be involved in any dispute as to the status of those resources.
Keeping the "policies of the receiving RIR" is contradictory ... changing it with "relevant policies" allows both RIRs to ensure that everything is correct.
Grammar maybe, I'm not English native speaker:
"for 12 months period" or "for a 12 months period"
I think 5.7.3.3. doesn't add any value, it could be removed and doesn't change anything: if there is no limite, no need to mention it. If there is not agreement, clearly the transfer will not happen because the parties don't authorize it, and then the RIR(s) don't authorize it!
Similarly 5.7.4.2. could be removed as well. We already said that the recipient should comply with policies (5.7.3.1), so what is this adding? Just superfluous text.
Note also my imputs in the previous email, regarding the hold period and the legacy status. I think 5.7.4.3, should be "IPv4 legacy resources "Transferred incoming or within AFRINIC IPv4 legacy resources will no longer be regarded as legacy resources".
5.7.5.1 is already indicated by the staff as something problematic with the actual wording. The transferring party (the source) may not have any relation (not a member) with the receiving RIR. With this text we are enforcing *all the RIRs* to offer a standard template and process on our mandate. WE CAN'T DO THAT. Our policies only have a mandate in AFRINIC, not in the other RIRs.
If we just remove section 5.7.5, and leave it to the staff as part of the operational procedure, the the problem is resolved because the existing process among the all other 4 RIRs for transfers will be "joined" by AFRINIC. It is just a matter of interconection among systems and processes!
I think all this should be carefully studied among the authors and the staff and the chairs should make sure that the verstion coming to last call has corrected all those issues.
I hope all this is useful.
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 23/9/20 9:38, "Taiwo Oyewande" <a href="mailto:taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class=""><taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com></a> escribió:
Hello PDWG,
Attached is the updated version of the Resource Transfer Policy proposal. As recommended, changes have been effected on sub-section 5.7.3.2, and 5.7.4.3 according to the co-chair summary.
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