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<p>+1</p>
<p>It is so obvious how much damage not having a minimum wait time
can make to the resources in the region versus the 'benefits' that
I find it really hard to understand how people keep defending not
having any waiting period and let things loose. <br>
</p>
<p>I think it is enough the fraud cases regarding resources,
specially the one that happened in the region to say having these
breaks is something positive to majority of organizations and make
sure resources go to those who really justify them to get people
connected to the internet, not just to speculate from them.</p>
<p>Regards<br>
Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24/09/2020 08:14, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Hi Ekaterina,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El 24/9/20
12:25, "Ekaterina Kalugina" <<a
href="mailto:kay.k.prof@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">kay.k.prof@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">Hey everyone,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><a
href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">@JORDI PALET MARTINEZ</a> <span
style="font-size:12.0pt">you said, and I quote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">>"An ISP will not need to
return even a /22 because he loses 1.024 customers as
he can get them back, this is very common customer
churn in a matter of weeks (even days or hours for big
ISPs)."<br>
<br>
In this case, ISP would not need to bother with
resource transfer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">[Jordi] At the beginning of the transfers
in other regions, I was *<b>against</b>* that. In my
opinion when operators don’t need the resources, they
should return them back to the RIR. BUT we all know,
that people is not so honest, and this will only
happen in an utopic and idealistic world and moreover,
this will still need some “agreement” between
different RIRs to allow those resources that are
returned to be “transferred” among RIRs. Due to facts,
afterwards I realized that this is a need for the
global community and that’s why I agreed with those
policies, and even started to work on them as an
author. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
<br>
However, I believe a situation may occur when the ISP
is unable to distribute the allocated resources for
whatever reason. </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">Even if we cannot predict the
reason we must still account for such contingency.
And, in such case, it does not make sense to block
these resources for 12 months from being transferred
to a place where they are actually needed. This would
be detrimental to everyone involved. <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">[Jordi] I don’t agree. A transfer may
take several weeks or even months. It depends on many
factors, like the justification time among the RIRs,
providing documents, etc. Even if you discover that in
month 3 after you have received a /22, you no longer
need it (which I doubt it can be true), this means
that the resources will be “unused” during other 6-7
months. I could agree that the hold time is just 6-8
months instead of 12, but non zero is difficult,
because the cost of “not-being-able to use those
resources” for any number of providers is actually *<b>lower</b>*
than the cost of a single recovery case!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
In regard to your statement:<br>
"However, a “bad guy” will easily use that as an
excuse to transfer the resources in days or weeks."<br>
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Like Anthony and
Lucilla mentioned before, such action would be a clear
act of fraud.I do not see any reason why anyone would
willingly commit such a violation. "Bad guys" are not
stupid, and if someone wants to take an advantage of
AFRINIC, they will, and I do not think the 12 months
cap would prevent that in any way. <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">[Jordi] Just look at the histories of
frauds in all the RIRs! This is real life. Holding the
resources for 12 months, breaks their business model.
It makes sense because it is quick money and you can
do it with a very tiny fraction of money, once and
again and again, rotating among different RIRs, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
The only thing it would achieve, in my view, is slow
down the flow of resources and create stagnations that
could be more costly than any retrieval procedures in
case of fraud.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">[Jordi] To be objective, we will need to
get statistics of “speed” of transfers among different
RIRs, number of frauds or fraud attempts, etc., etc.,
etc. and many of those details probably are sensitive
and the RIRs will not recognize that, even if
anonymized. There have been fraud cases in RIPE, which
everybody knows by word of mouth, but it has never
published …<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><br>
But of course, staff assessment is needed to have full
clarity of this issue.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">Kay</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On Thu, Sep
24, 2020 at 9:05 AM Gaby Giner <<a
href="mailto:gabyginernetwork@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">gabyginernetwork@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
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6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Hello
guys,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">This
discussion is very interesting seeing that it deals
with the most probable or likely outcome with those
that would want to take advantage of the system. We
can only wish that the clients would be completely
honest with their need, but of course, if they are
inclined to lie, there is no mechanism that would stop
them from doing so. I would suggest that the proposal
include a means or a way to authenticate the need but
that would be more trouble than it is worth and would
not be entirely foolproof. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Since we
are dealing with finite and scarce resources, it's
important that the way they are doled out should be
systematic and measured and not just "I need this. I
need this, give me this". Having said that, I think
having a time limit would also cause traffic for the
"need". Regardless, as Lucilla said, these are
hypothetical scenarios and questions but they may be
worth getting into.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">I'm
interested in what the staff/authors would have to say
on this matter.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Thanks,
Gaby.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On Thu,
Sep 24, 2020, 2:59 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD,
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">I mean a
non-realistic situation. An ISP will not need to
return even a /22 because he loses 1.024
customers as he can get them back, this is very
common customer churn in a matter of weeks (even
days or hours for big ISPs).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">However, a
“bad guy” will easily use that as an excuse to
transfer the resources in days or weeks.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Jordi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt">El
24/9/20 8:29, "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD"
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Exactly,
if you really have that situation you can return
them and be fair.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Anyway,
the example that I’ve presented is a
non-realistic suggestion. It is not frequent
that an operator loses customers in such way. It
is just the perfect excuse for “bad guys” to get
resources and resell them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Remember
also that in the actual exhaustion phase, they
can only get a maximum of a /22.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Jordi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">El
24/9/20 4:03, "Fernando Frediani" <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin-left:106.2pt">We can make in
another way: if someone justifies and receives
resources from AfriNic but afterwards realizes
something changed and doesn't need those addresses
anymore it must give the addresses back to AfriNic
so it can re-distribute it in the most fair way to
any other organization who goes though the same
justification process. Why is it difficult to
think about this fairness with all others in the
region ?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:106.2pt">Fernando<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">On
23/09/2020 22:22, lucilla fornaro wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">Hello
everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">I
agree with what concerns the problem of
the time limit. Companies will refrain
from such behavior because it is too risky
and indicative of possible fraud.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">Jordi,
Considering your example related to the
customers' loss, I think that it is
adverse for the operator to wait 12 months
before transferring the addresses. What is
the point in holding addresses that they
will not be able to use and deprive
someone else of further resources? What if
they don’t get new customers? What if they
lose even more customers? Too many
hypothetical questions, that is why I
believe it is more straightforward and
more convenient for everyone to facilitate
the process.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">I
agree that recovery processes are
expensive and time-consuming, but we can
say the same for those unused resources.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">As
well as you, I would like to know the
staff’s view on this.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">Lucilla <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">Il
giorno mer 23 set 2020 alle ore 21:14 JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
ha scritto:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Hi
Anthony,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">I think *<b>somehow</b>*
you’re right, clearly I overlooked
this.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">We don’t need a time
limit to transfer resrources because
that will be a demonstration of the
“the need was not justified”.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">However, the problem of
this approach is that if it happens,
the staff *<b>will need to start a
recovery process</b>* which is
long, costly and a big trouble.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">What happens if the *<b>false</b>*
justification for the transfer is: I
had the need 6 months ago, but then
I lost customers and now I don’t
need anymore the space, so I’m
transfering it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">What happens if the
same operator, repeat that after
another 6 months? There are ways to
one and again *<b>justify the need</b>*
and it is, instead, very dificult
for the staff to act on the RSA for
recovery and member closure in those
cases.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">On the other way
around, what is the “objection” if
we have that hold time? I can only
see one: If the example above (I
lost customers) happens, the
operator need to wait until month 12
before transfering the addresses. Is
that really so bad? Or it is good
because he may get new customers
again?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">I think the trade-off
is to have a good balance and ensure
that we avoid this happening and
requiring the staff to invest
resources in an investigation and
recovery.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Could the staff provide
a view on this?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Regarding the legacy.
Yes, ARIN and RIPE don’t have it (I
think APNIC has it, LACNIC
definitively has it). AFRINIC has it
right now. We are removing a very
good thing.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Why it is so good?
Because legacy holders aren’t bound
to the RIRs RSAs, so that’s
extremely bad for the overall
community. They don’t pay for *<b>services</b>*
that all the RIRs are doing for
them, so all the members are
covering that part of the cost.
They’re not bound to RIR policies,
so they can break the rules of the
community all the time and we have
no way to react on that.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">I don’t agree on the
point of the disputed resources,
I’ve the feeling that somehow in the
process of editing the v2, it was
removed by mistake and we should
have it back. The difference in
between rightful holder and having a
dispute, is depending on who is
saying that, in case of a dispute. I
will love also to have the staff
opinion on that.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">As well, can the impact
analysis be made clear? Is that all
fine for the staff after having
checked with authors each point?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Please, let’s make this
happen!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Jordi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:141.6pt">El
21/9/20 18:10, "Anthony Ubah" <<a
href="mailto:ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:141.6pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:141.6pt">Hello
Jordi,<br>
<br>
We can sight an instance with APNIC
as a case study. APNIC has a
transfer policy that doesn’t have a
time limit for retransferring
resources and time proves to us that
it works.<br>
<br>
According to APNIC, the act of
buying space and reselling it right
after the purchase seems to be
highly unlikely because of two
reasons.<br>
<br>
First of all, most companies buy
space for their own use, and hence a
commodity trading type of business
doesn’t exist in the IP space
involved.<br>
<br>
Secondly, since the buyer is
required to justify the need of a
12-month usage, if he/she engages in
an activity such as buying the space
and then reselling it right after,
this indicative of fraud because it
contravenes the “NEED” which is a
prerequisite for receiving such
space. This simply implies that the
so-called “NEED” which they provided
was fake. Hence, companies will
refrain from engaging in such
behaviour.<br>
<br>
As for the legacy transfer, I
believe both ARIN and RIPE have the
cases of a transferred legacy space
remained as a legacy. APNIC may be
different, but I think this is just
a different sort of opinion and
should not be read as an objection.
Also, what matters the most is that
if we follow ARIN, we can receive
space from them. Definitely this is
a significant advantage.<br>
<br>
As for the disputed resources, since
AFRINIC have to know who the
rightful holder of the spaces are
before transferring them. I don’t
think this would be a concern
because AFRINIC is not able to
initiate a transfer for space that
is under dispute. However, this is a
legal matter and is already out of
the scope of the policy.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-left:141.6pt;line-height:150%"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:"Garamond",serif">Anthony
Ubah</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p
style="margin-left:141.6pt;line-height:150%"><span
style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#999999">E-mail: </span><a
href="mailto:anthony.ubah@gloworld.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-family:"Garamond",serif">anthony.ubah@goldspine.com</span></a><span
style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#999999">.ng</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:141.6pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:141.6pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:141.6pt">On
Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:00 AM <<a
href="mailto:rpd-request@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd-request@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:141.6pt">Send
RPD mailing list submissions to<br>
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When replying, please edit your
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digest..."<br>
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<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02 -
Resource Transfer Policy<br>
(JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)<br>
2. Re: Abuse Contact Policy
(JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 10:34:13
+0200<br>
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a
href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>
To: rpd List <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: [rpd]
AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02 -
Resource Transfer Policy<br>
Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:8873E491-A0A7-4506-A490-13C6B6E67A7D@consulintel.es"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">8873E491-A0A7-4506-A490-13C6B6E67A7D@consulintel.es</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I will be happy to support this
proposal and withdraw my own one,
but *before* I?ve some questions
about this decision that need to
be addressed first (see below,
in-line).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
10. Resource Transfer Policy<br>
<br>
This proposal aims to introduce
Inter RIR transfer. However, it
has the following opposition <br>
<br>
a. Issues with
Legacy holder transfer is
potentially considered
none-reciprocal by ARIN<br>
<br>
b. Potential
abuse of AFRINIC free pool without
the time limit of receiving an
allocation from AFRINIC.<br>
<br>
Chairs Decision: The proposal is
the least contested of all the 3
competing proposals. However
because of the community?s desire
and clear expression for the need
for an Inter RIR transfer, we, the
Co-chairs, believe that in the
interest of the community we
should focus on a proposal rather
than several similar ones. This
desire was clearly expressed at
the AFRINIC 31 meeting in Angola.
Therefore, We suggest that the
authors of this proposal make the
following amendments: <br>
<br>
? 5.7.3.2 Source entities
are not eligible to receive
further IPv4 allocations or
assignments from AFRINIC for 12
months period after the transfer.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Jordi] This is perfect, and in
fact is what I?ve. Just different
timing to match phase 2 window x
2, but not a big issue. However,
we are missing something that was
also objected by the community and
I think is key to avoid abuse.
Actual text in the CPM ?5.7.3.3
Source entities must not have
received a transfer, allocation,
or assignment of IPv4 number
resources from AFRINIC for the 12
months prior to the approval of
transfer request. This restriction
excludes mergers and acquisitions
transfers.?. This is no longer
considered by this proposal, and
in my opinion it is a MUST.
Doesn?t make any sense that
someone is getting resources from
AFRINIC and being able to transfer
them immediately! Can please the
chairs also address this point.<br>
<br>
[Jordi] Can the staff explain the
consequences from their
perspective if we don?t have such
text or something similar? Is even
possible that the board will not
ratify the policy because that,
and we are wasting a previous
time?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
? 5.7.4.3. Transferred
legacy resources will still be
regarded as legacy resources.<br>
<br>
[Jordi] This is also a major
issue. I?m not sure if the chairs
have understood what was the point
about lack of reciprocity. We
can?t enforce ARIN to accept that
outgoing (to ARIN from AFRINIC)
resources will no longer be
legacy. However the actual CPM
states ?5.7.4.3 Transferred IPv4
legacy resources will no longer be
regarded as legacy resources.?. We
must keep that, because we should
avoid legacy resources to keep
being legacy as much as possible,
because they are NOT BIND to the
CPM. If we accept the chairs
proposal, we are going *backwards*
not forward and we may be creating
a discrimination with already done
transfers within AFRINIC
(Intra-RIR, according to the
current policy). The right text
here must be ?Transferred incoming
or within AFRINIC IPv4 legacy
resources will no longer be
regarded as legacy resources?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Jordi] Finally, there were
several severe comments from the
staff that need to be addressed.
For example, resources under
dispute. That?s a big issue! There
are a few others. I think here we
need to see if the staff got
everything clear from the authors
inputs and if the policy can be
implemented or there will be open
questions that will not allow to
be a functional policy and again,
even disallow the board to ratify
it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Chairs Decision: Provided that the
above are amended, the decisions
is Rough Consensus is achieved
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 11:00:01
+0200<br>
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a
href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>
To: <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [rpd] Abuse Contact
Policy<br>
Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:491C1297-8C2D-4939-B339-EDAA80334B24@consulintel.es"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">491C1297-8C2D-4939-B339-EDAA80334B24@consulintel.es</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.3 and 8.4 are making sure that
you respond to an abuse case,
*not* that you *recognize* it as
an abuse. It is your choice to
tell the ?victim ISP?, look for me
this is not an abuse, so I will
not do anything about it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
AFRINIC can?t verify this
automatically, because it doesn?t
make sense that AFRINIC is
?sending? fake abuse reports to
see if they get a response.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
AFRINIC can only send an email for
the validation of the mailbox. It
is an existing mailbox? I?m
getting a response (for example,
have they, once I send the
validation email, clicked the link
or went into MyAfrinic to input
the validation code?).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.4 also states the timing for the
validation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.5 is the validation itself, so I
guess, according to your response,
that you?re ok with this specific
point. If we don?t have it,
AFRINIC can?t do a periodic
validation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
8.6. is making sure that you don?t
try to fake the validation. For
instance, you could respond only
to AFRINIC validations and then
discard all the other emails. If
we don?t have that, the policy may
become useless. Note also that in
fact, if you follow the RSA,
*anyone* could escalate *any* lack
of CPM compliance. So this is
making sure that the policy text
is honest and transparent.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Or do you prefer to be filtered
because you don?t respond?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Clearly this proposal is not
asking AFRINIC to be a police. Is
only making sure that the parties
*can talk*. Again: AFRINIC will
not be involved in ?how you handle
the case?, but I least you should
be able to be contacted and
respond.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
See this example:<br>
<br>
If AK or Moses customers are
sending me spam, or trying to
intrude my network, and they have
abuse contacts, I will be able to
complain to them. Then we have two
cases:<br>
<br>
1. Moses responds to me and say
?you?re right, this is against our
AUP? (is irrelevant what the law
in Moses country say, it is the
contract with customers what says
what is allowed or not). Let?s fix
it. I will warn the customer, and
if they don?t stop, we will filter
their email port, or even cancel
the contract (just examples, only
Moses can decide what they do).<br>
<br>
2. AK instead doesn?t care, or
the mailbox is full or bouncing
emails or respond ?sorry in our
network we allow that?. Then I can
take my own decision, filter only
that IP address, or the complete
AK network. I can even see if this
is allowed in his country and take
legal actions (which usually you
don?t do because is costly and
more of the regulations don?t know
?anything? about abuse or even
Internet!).<br>
<br>
AFRINIC will not take any measure
if AK decides that is not an
abuse. It is our problem not
AFRINIC problem. However, if the
email is bouncing, AFRINIC will
revalidate the abuse-c and make
sure that it works.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Is like a phone book. You have
there the phones and they must be
correct, or you need to update
them every ?n? months. The phone
book doesn?t tell the purpose of
each phone. If you don?t want to
accept calls related to ?ordering
pizzas?, you tell the caller ?this
number is not for that?, but at
least you must pick up the phone
otherwise, you don?t know if it is
somebody calling by error or
someone that you really want to
talk. And this is true for *every*
whois contact.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you let us know how do you
handle it in the networks that you
operate?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 21/9/20 10:00, "Lamiaa Chnayti"
<<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Fernando, <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I think you are very confused. I
never said I have a problem with
people completing their
registration. Keep
registration---having an abuse
contact Email in the whois, just
like tech contact or admin
contact--I am perfectly fine with
it, and I think the current policy
achieves 99% it, if you want to
add this contact as mandatory
field I am fine with it as well.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
But the problem of this policy in
8.3-8.6, is that it requires
AFRINIC to monitor the members HOW
to manage their abuse mailbox down
to the subject line, and that is
out of the scope of AFRINIC, just
read my last email with logic in
mind and you will understand. I
suggest this policy should be very
simple, adding one line to the
current policy-- abuse contact is
mandatory, and it's done,
everything else should be deleted.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
And again, you are trying to use
AFRINIC for something that is not
in its scope, how someone manages
their mailbox is not in the scope
of AFRINIC, it is like you go to
your local church to ask them to
arrest your neighbour who plays
loud music at night when you
should go to police instead. Same
thing for someone running an
abusive network, as many already
stated, it is up to a local Jury
to decide if it is simply at an
annoying level or a criminal
offense, but either way please do
go to your local police to report
it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
As for the internet, we never tell
you how to behave--you are
entirely at your rights in the
internet to behave abusively, but
it is also entirely in everyone's
rights to block you, that's how
de-centralizing works, no central
governing, everyone plays nice
because that's the only way for
everyone else to play with you,
and this policy here asks AFRINIC
to act like a central government
even down to manage people's
mailbox's subject line and that is
way beyond what internet meant to
be.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le dim. 20 sept. 2020 ? 23:42,
Fernando Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19/09/2020 13:19, Lamiaa
Chnayti wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<clip><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How is it in the scope of AFRINIC
to decide how I manage my abuse
mailbox? If I want to reply only
to a specific subject line of my
abuse box, it is entirely in my
right to do. Even if I don't want
to reply at the abuse mailbox at
all, that is my right to do so and
if I think no action in my network
would be considered abuse
(although unlikely), but it is
still from the internet community
point of view, entirely in my
right to do so. You might choose
to block me as a network, but that
is also your right. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The reason internet is called
INTER-NET is because of its
decentralized nature, you have to
play nice for others to play with
you, but this community never
forces anyone to play nice, it is
not in the scope of AFRINIC to
decide how members reply to their
abuse mailbox, so if 8.3,8.4, 8.5
and 8.6 are deleted in its
entirety, I might consider
supporting it. Also Jordi, I feel
you always have this central
management type of thinking, and
that is so not internet.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It is not in the scope of any RIR
how anyone manage people's<br>
<br>
mailboxes.<br>
<br>
<br>
Nobody exists alone in the
Internet. If an organization<br>
<br>
hypothetically doesn't care at all
and refuses to respond to abuse<br>
<br>
emails it probably should re-think
its existence in the Internet<br>
<br>
business.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The Internet is what is among many
reasons because of the<br>
<br>
cooperation among its
organizations, and there are
certain rules<br>
<br>
that are agreed cooperatively and
must be observed by everyone<br>
<br>
willing remain on it, otherwise it
may in many cases cause serious<br>
<br>
damage to those willing to operate
in serious manner and keep it a<br>
<br>
healthy place to most people who
depend on it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This forum is about setting rules
on how registration information<br>
<br>
about resources are kept and it
may be of the wish of the<br>
<br>
community to refuse keep
registration for those who
repetitively<br>
<br>
abuse of their individual rights.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le ven. 18 sept. 2020 ? 09:23,<br>
<br>
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I don?t agree. Internet doesn't
depend on<br>
<br>
any jurisdiction; abuse is about
what I (the victim<br>
<br>
operator) consider abuse. The RFC
is clear about that,<br>
<br>
in short ?Inappropriate public
behaviour? (is a<br>
<br>
mailbox so to be able to contact
in case there is a<br>
<br>
possible inappropriate behaviour
in the public<br>
<br>
Internet). If you want a clearer
definition, abuse is<br>
<br>
*anything* that I don?t want to
accept in my<br>
<br>
network because is in any way
damaging it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If I don?t want to accept a DoS,
or spam,<br>
<br>
or phising, DMCA, or whatever,
this is abuse *for<br>
<br>
me*. I?ve the right to tell you
because that<br>
<br>
abuse is coming from your network.
If you believe that<br>
<br>
is not abuse (and here is your
jurisdiction in some<br>
<br>
cases, in other just doesn?t
exist, but it may be also<br>
<br>
your ?business? decision ? like
operators that don?t<br>
<br>
care if their customers do spam or
intrusion<br>
<br>
attempts), you?ve the right to
tell me ?sorry, this is<br>
<br>
not abuse for us?, and then I?ve
the right to decide<br>
<br>
if I should filter your network
based on your<br>
<br>
response.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not having an abuse contact, means
that<br>
<br>
I?m not able to contact you, so we
can?t talk, we<br>
<br>
can?t investigate or agree if it
is an abuse or not,<br>
<br>
so you (the offender operator)
don?t have the chance<br>
<br>
to decide about it! Is bad for
you, is bad for me. In<br>
<br>
those cases, my best choice is to
filter you. This<br>
<br>
create problems for your customers
and my customers.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We can?t depend on jurisdictions,
because<br>
<br>
then the policy will need to
consider inter-relations<br>
<br>
among every possible ?pairs? of
country worlds, and we<br>
<br>
will need to update the policy
based on any<br>
<br>
jurisdiction change. The policy is
not about that, is<br>
<br>
about having a valid responsible
contact, not about<br>
<br>
deciding what is an abuse, which
is among the two<br>
<br>
parties.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tell me what is different from
AFRINIC<br>
<br>
than the rest of the world,
because none of the RIRs<br>
<br>
have defined abuse in their
policies. I even don?t<br>
<br>
recall that having appeared in the
discussions!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
<br>
you want, I?m happy to change the
title of the<br>
<br>
proposal to ?supposed abuse
contact?, that may be<br>
<br>
clearing your point?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Again,<br>
<br>
this is not about defining what is
abuse, this is<br>
<br>
among the parties. It is about
making sure that<br>
<br>
there is a valid responsible
contact in case of<br>
<br>
anyone needs to report what he
considers an abuse.<br>
<br>
AFRINIC will not punish anyone
that believes that<br>
<br>
his customer is not doing an abuse
because in his<br>
<br>
country is not an abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El<br>
<br>
18/9/20 9:59, "Lamiaa Chnayti"
<<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello<br>
<br>
Jordi,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
RFC2142<br>
<br>
only defines a tiny portion of the
network abuse. In<br>
<br>
real world operation, abuse
consists of a much<br>
<br>
boarder range : DMCA(copy rights)
claims,<br>
<br>
unsolicited emails , phishing
websites , trade mark<br>
<br>
disputes etc. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
All<br>
<br>
those are legal issues that vary
vastly across<br>
<br>
different juridictions in which no
one but each of<br>
<br>
the juridiction?s judges can
decide if it is an<br>
<br>
abuse or an illegal activity.
Claiming that RFC2142<br>
<br>
defines not even 1% of real world
abuse is<br>
<br>
laughable.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le jeu.<br>
<br>
17 sept. 2020 ? 15:51, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via<br>
<br>
RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi<br>
<br>
Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I?ve<br>
<br>
said this already. This policy
doesn?t<br>
<br>
enforce abuse, it enforces that
the abuse<br>
<br>
contact is there, and works.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today<br>
<br>
AFRINIC is paying for the cost of
the<br>
<br>
abuse handling because only a tiny<br>
<br>
fraction of the members has the
abuse<br>
<br>
contacts in place.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
<br>
the contacts in the RIR database
aren?t<br>
<br>
actual and accurate, this is a
clear<br>
<br>
violation of the RSA. So what is<br>
<br>
unacceptable is not having the
contacts,<br>
<br>
not on the other way around.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Abuse<br>
<br>
is not defined by the RIRs,
everybody<br>
<br>
knows it and this is the reason
why NONE<br>
<br>
of the RIRs have re-defined it,
because it<br>
<br>
is already stated in RFC2142. Can
you<br>
<br>
justify why AFRINIC is different
and need<br>
<br>
a definition?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How<br>
<br>
you define it in the networks that
you<br>
<br>
operate?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 17/9/20<br>
<br>
10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
will have to agree with Lucilla on
what<br>
<br>
she said and would like to add to
it<br>
<br>
that :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Firstly, Abuse<br>
<br>
enforcement is out of scope for
RIRs.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Secondly, RIRs<br>
<br>
have no ability to define what is<br>
<br>
?abuse?, one abuse or even
criminal<br>
<br>
activity could be entirely a legal<br>
<br>
operation in a different
jurisdiction.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally, making<br>
<br>
a member forcefully reply to abuse<br>
<br>
contact Emails are a waste of
resources<br>
<br>
and totally pointless, it is
entirely up<br>
<br>
to the member to define what they
think<br>
<br>
is acceptable in their network
operation<br>
<br>
and how they react to it. AFRINIC
has no<br>
<br>
mandate to force any member to
reply to<br>
<br>
an ?abuse?, since AFRINIC doesn?t
even<br>
<br>
have the ability to identify what
is<br>
<br>
considered an abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Therefore the<br>
<br>
entire policy is out of scope for
the<br>
<br>
RIR operation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
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<br>
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<br>
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<br>
Le jeu. 17<br>
<br>
sept. 2020 ? 07:42, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ<br>
<br>
via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Lucilla,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today we already have<br>
<br>
mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate<br>
<br>
networks understand what it is an<br>
<br>
abuse. If you operate networks you<br>
<br>
know that *anything* which<br>
<br>
is a non-authorized use of a<br>
<br>
network is an abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If you send spam,<br>
<br>
attack networks, try to intrude<br>
<br>
networks, etc., all those are<br>
<br>
abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What the policy ask<br>
<br>
is to make sure that in AFRINIC<br>
<br>
everybody has an abuse contact<br>
<br>
(today we have mnt-IRT, but is not<br>
<br>
mandatory, and as a results many<br>
<br>
African networks are filtered<br>
<br>
because lack of that ? and<br>
<br>
consequently they do not respond<br>
<br>
to abuse cases -, which exist in<br>
<br>
all the other regions of the<br>
<br>
world).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not having an abuse<br>
<br>
means more chances of legal<br>
<br>
actions, more cost, for both the<br>
<br>
victims and the ISPs. Having<br>
<br>
that means that you have more<br>
<br>
chances to resolve it in<br>
<br>
goodfaith.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
One of the *most<br>
<br>
important* Afrinic<br>
<br>
missions is to have accuracy on<br>
<br>
the database, which includes<br>
<br>
accuracy on the contacts. We are<br>
<br>
not fulfilling that in this<br>
<br>
situation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Remember that *all*<br>
<br>
the other RIRs have already this<br>
<br>
kind of policy. This one is like<br>
<br>
the one that has been<br>
<br>
implemented in APNIC, and the<br>
<br>
accuracy of the contacts is now<br>
<br>
87.5% as reported this month in<br>
<br>
the last APNIC meeting. In that<br>
<br>
report *none* of the<br>
<br>
members indicated any of the<br>
<br>
issues that you indicated<br>
<br>
(didn't happened as well in the<br>
<br>
other regions).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You know who is<br>
<br>
interested in not having abuse<br>
<br>
contacts? Those that use their<br>
<br>
networks for doing abuse<br>
<br>
(hijacking, spam, DoS,<br>
<br>
intrusions, etc.).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you explain if<br>
<br>
the network that you operate has<br>
<br>
an abuse contact an how if one<br>
<br>
of your customes is trying to<br>
<br>
penetrate my network or do a<br>
<br>
DoS, I will be able to contact<br>
<br>
you and if you will do anything<br>
<br>
or just ignore it?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El<br>
<br>
17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"<br>
<br>
<<a
href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
<br>
all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
have some concerns about the<br>
<br>
?Abuse Contact Policy?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
First<br>
<br>
of all, it does not offer a<br>
<br>
specific and regulated<br>
<br>
description of the term<br>
<br>
?abuse? and this opens the<br>
<br>
door to potentially bigger<br>
<br>
problems: a surplus of<br>
<br>
reports, discrimination/legal<br>
<br>
issues, and a waste of<br>
<br>
resources. Around the world,<br>
<br>
we can perceive what abuse is<br>
<br>
in very different ways.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Afrinic<br>
<br>
is not entitled to force<br>
<br>
members to report abuses and<br>
<br>
most importantly, this<br>
<br>
proposal does not represent<br>
<br>
Afrinic?s purpose.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I,<br>
<br>
therefore, oppose this policy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank<br>
<br>
you,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lucilla <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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Are you ready for the new Internet
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href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
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<br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
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This electronic message contains
information<br>
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which may be privileged or
confidential. The<br>
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information is intended to be for
the<br>
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exclusive use of the individual(s)
named above<br>
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and further non-explicilty
authorized<br>
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disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of<br>
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the contents of this information,
even if<br>
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partially, including attached
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strictly prohibited and will be
considered a<br>
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criminal offense. If you are not
the intended<br>
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recipient be aware that any
disclosure,<br>
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copying, distribution or use of
the contents<br>
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of this information, even if
partially,<br>
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including attached files, is
strictly<br>
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criminal<br>
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original<br>
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communication and<br>
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delete it.<br>
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target="_blank"
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
Le jeu.<br>
<br>
17 sept. 2020 ? 15:49, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via<br>
<br>
RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi<br>
<br>
Lamiaa,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I?ve<br>
<br>
said this already. This policy
doesn?t<br>
<br>
enforce abuse, it enforces that
the abuse<br>
<br>
contact is there, and works.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today<br>
<br>
AFRINIC is paying for the cost of
the abuse<br>
<br>
handling because only a tiny
fraction of the<br>
<br>
members has the abuse contacts in
place.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If the<br>
<br>
contacts in the RIR database
aren?t actual<br>
<br>
and accurate, this is a clear
violation of<br>
<br>
the RSA. So what is unacceptable
is not<br>
<br>
having the contacts, not on the
other way<br>
<br>
around.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Abuse is<br>
<br>
not defined by the RIRs, everybody
knows it<br>
<br>
and this is the reason why NONE of
the RIRs<br>
<br>
have re-defined it, because it is
already<br>
<br>
stated in RFC2142. Can you justify
why<br>
<br>
AFRINIC is different and need a
definition?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
How you<br>
<br>
define it in the networks that you
operate?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 17/9/20<br>
<br>
10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
will have to agree with Lucilla on
what<br>
<br>
she said and would like to add to
it that<br>
<br>
:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Firstly, Abuse<br>
<br>
enforcement is out of scope for
RIRs.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Secondly, RIRs<br>
<br>
have no ability to define what is
?abuse?,<br>
<br>
one abuse or even criminal
activity could<br>
<br>
be entirely a legal operation in a<br>
<br>
different jurisdiction.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally, making<br>
<br>
a member forcefully reply to abuse
contact<br>
<br>
Emails are a waste of resources
and<br>
<br>
totally pointless, it is entirely
up to<br>
<br>
the member to define what they
think is<br>
<br>
acceptable in their network
operation and<br>
<br>
how they react to it. AFRINIC has
no<br>
<br>
mandate to force any member to
reply to an<br>
<br>
?abuse?, since AFRINIC doesn?t
even have<br>
<br>
the ability to identify what is
considered<br>
<br>
an abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Therefore the<br>
<br>
entire policy is out of scope for
the RIR<br>
<br>
operation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lamiaa<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le jeu. 17<br>
<br>
sept. 2020 ? 07:42, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ<br>
<br>
via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<br>
a ?crit :<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi<br>
<br>
Lucilla,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Today<br>
<br>
we already have mnt-IRT, and<br>
<br>
everybody who operate networks<br>
<br>
understand what it is an abuse. If<br>
<br>
you operate networks you know that
*anything*<br>
<br>
which is a non-authorized use of a<br>
<br>
network is an abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
<br>
you send spam, attack networks,
try<br>
<br>
to intrude networks, etc., all
those<br>
<br>
are abuse.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
What<br>
<br>
the policy ask is to make sure
that<br>
<br>
in AFRINIC everybody has an abuse<br>
<br>
contact (today we have mnt-IRT,
but<br>
<br>
is not mandatory, and as a results<br>
<br>
many African networks are filtered<br>
<br>
because lack of that ? and<br>
<br>
consequently they do not respond
to<br>
<br>
abuse cases -, which exist in all<br>
<br>
the other regions of the world).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Not having an abuse<br>
<br>
means more chances of legal<br>
<br>
actions, more cost, for both the<br>
<br>
victims and the ISPs. Having that<br>
<br>
means that you have more chances<br>
<br>
to resolve it in goodfaith.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
One of the *most<br>
<br>
important* Afrinic missions<br>
<br>
is to have accuracy on the<br>
<br>
database, which includes accuracy<br>
<br>
on the contacts. We are not<br>
<br>
fulfilling that in this situation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Remember that *all*<br>
<br>
the other RIRs have already this<br>
<br>
kind of policy. This one is like<br>
<br>
the one that has been implemented<br>
<br>
in APNIC, and the accuracy of the<br>
<br>
contacts is now 87.5% as reported<br>
<br>
this month in the last APNIC<br>
<br>
meeting. In that report *none*<br>
<br>
of the members indicated any of<br>
<br>
the issues that you indicated<br>
<br>
(didn't happened as well in the<br>
<br>
other regions).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
You know who is<br>
<br>
interested in not having abuse<br>
<br>
contacts? Those that use their<br>
<br>
networks for doing abuse<br>
<br>
(hijacking, spam, DoS, intrusions,<br>
<br>
etc.).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you explain if<br>
<br>
the network that you operate has<br>
<br>
an abuse contact an how if one of<br>
<br>
your customes is trying to<br>
<br>
penetrate my network or do a DoS,<br>
<br>
I will be able to contact you and<br>
<br>
if you will do anything or just<br>
<br>
ignore it?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jordi<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El<br>
<br>
17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"<br>
<br>
<<a
href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
escribi?:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
<br>
all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
<br>
have some concerns about the<br>
<br>
?Abuse Contact Policy?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
First<br>
<br>
of all, it does not offer a<br>
<br>
specific and regulated<br>
<br>
description of the term ?abuse?<br>
<br>
and this opens the door to<br>
<br>
potentially bigger problems: a<br>
<br>
surplus of reports,<br>
<br>
discrimination/legal issues, and<br>
<br>
a waste of resources. Around the<br>
<br>
world, we can perceive what<br>
<br>
abuse is in very different ways.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Afrinic<br>
<br>
is not entitled to force members<br>
<br>
to report abuses and most<br>
<br>
importantly, this proposal does<br>
<br>
not represent Afrinic?s purpose.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I,<br>
<br>
therefore, oppose this policy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank<br>
<br>
you,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lucilla <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
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-- <br>
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<br>
CHNAYTI<br>
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**********************************************<br>
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IPv4 is over<br>
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Are you ready for the new Internet
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<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains
information which may be<br>
<br>
privileged or confidential. The
information is intended to<br>
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be for the exclusive use of the
individual(s) named above<br>
<br>
and further non-explicilty
authorized disclosure, copying,<br>
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distribution or use of the
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even if partially, including
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<br>
prohibited and will be considered
a criminal offense. If you<br>
<br>
are not the intended recipient be
aware that any disclosure,<br>
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copying, distribution or use of
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information, even if partially,
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so you must reply to the original
sender to inform about<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Lamiaa CHNAYTI<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list <a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
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**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet
?<br>
<a
href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
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moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
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This electronic message contains
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information is intended to be for
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------------------------------<br>
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End of RPD Digest, Vol 168, Issue
143<br>
*************************************<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains
information which may be privileged or
confidential. The information is intended
to be for the exclusive use of the
individual(s) named above and further
non-explicilty authorized disclosure,
copying, distribution or use of the
contents of this information, even if
partially, including attached files, is
strictly prohibited and will be considered
a criminal offense. If you are not the
intended recipient be aware that any
disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information, even
if partially, including attached files, is
strictly prohibited, will be considered a
criminal offense, so you must reply to the
original sender to inform about this
communication and delete it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:106.2pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style="margin-left:106.2pt">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:106.2pt">RPD mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:106.2pt"><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:106.2pt"><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:106.2pt">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which
may be privileged or confidential. The information
is intended to be for the exclusive use of the
individual(s) named above and further
non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of the contents of this
information, even if partially, including attached
files, is strictly prohibited and will be
considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
intended recipient be aware that any disclosure,
copying, distribution or use of the contents of
this information, even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be
considered a criminal offense, so you must reply
to the original sender to inform about this
communication and delete it.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which
may be privileged or confidential. The information
is intended to be for the exclusive use of the
individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty
authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information, even if
partially, including attached files, is strictly
prohibited and will be considered a criminal
offense. If you are not the intended recipient be
aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or
use of the contents of this information, even if
partially, including attached files, is strictly
prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense,
so you must reply to the original sender to inform
about this communication and delete it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.theipv6company.com">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may be
privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
communication and delete it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</pre>
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