<div dir="ltr">
<span></span>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Dear Mark Elkins,<br></p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><span style="color:rgb(255,153,0)">Sorry William, I
don't follow your logic. The RPD list is EXACTLY where this proposal
ought to be discussed. However, it only affects those that have
AFRINIC Numbering resources - as it is those records of "ownership"
that are affected by this Policy.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">
<span></span>Of Course we all know
that this policy affects those that have AFRINIC Numbering resources,
but by stressing such fact in your previous comment makes it look
like the opinion of the non AFRINIC resource members should not
count.</p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><br></p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">
<span></span>
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><span style="color:rgb(255,153,0)">The "abuse"
contact is simply an additional label or piece of information in
those records. The primary change is making it Mandatory, nothing
else. It already exists.</span></p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">
<span></span>
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Yes it already
exists, that's the reason I’m of the opinion that there is no need of
making it mandatory as it may lead to further unforeseen and avoidable
complications. Hence, the reason I oppose this policy. Try also to look at it from a different perspective. <br></p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><br></p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Cheer!</p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Emem William<br></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><br></p><p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><br></p>
</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 at 13:58, Mark Elkins <<a href="mailto:mje@posix.co.za">mje@posix.co.za</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 2020/09/19 14:27, Emem William
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Dear Mark, Noah
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">If the Abuse contact Policy was meant to be
discussed only by the AFRINIC resource members then it would
not have been posted here in the RPD mailing list which is
open to everyone to make comments and contribution.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Sorry William, I don't follow your logic. The RPD list is EXACTLY
where this proposal ought to be discussed. However, it only
affects those that have AFRINIC Numbering resources - as it is
those records of "ownership" that are affected by this Policy.</p>
<p>The "abuse" contact is simply an additional label or piece of
information in those records. The primary change is making it
Mandatory, nothing else. It already exists. In my case it would
simply state that if someone has a problem with any of the
Numbering Resources that are in the name of Posix Systems - they
should send an email to <a href="mailto:abuse@posix.co.za" target="_blank">"abuse@posix.co.za"</a> - my organisations
abuse address. There is no strange agenda behind this. This should
just make life easier for people to find the right person when
there is a problem.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">For this policy to have been brought forward
here, it therefore means that the community believes that
everyone (subscribed to this mailing list) be he AFRINIC
Resource member or not would have a meaningful contribution to
this policy proposal and as such contribute to the betterment
of AFRINIC and indeed the internet. Hence there's no need of
bringing up membership status as a criterion for which this
particular policy should be supported or opposed.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">However, you all cannot pretend not to
understand the ambiguousness of words especially when it is
open to interpretation by different persons irrespective of
weather or not they are in the same field of human endeavor.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Moreover, <b>in my opinion</b>, since some
actions could count as abuse to some people, meanwhile
others might not consider the same actions as abuse. It
therefore becomes imperative for us to not waste time and
resources on this policy which is capable of bringing
complications, misunderstanding and/or problems among
AFRINIC resource members with regards to the use of internet
resources, rather we should channel our energy and resources
to solve other problems that really exist.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Cheers!</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Respectfully,</div>
<div dir="auto">Emem William</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 12:20
Mark Elkins <<a href="mailto:mje@posix.co.za" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">mje@posix.co.za</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>The only people complaining about this policy should be
the Resource Members of AFRINIC. To be clear, I am a
Resource Member (of AFRINIC) and I agree with the policy.
There is currently a voluntary option to add an abuse
contact. I personally believe it should be renamed to
"abuse-c" (so it looks more obvious and similar to the
other contacts for an ASN or IP allocation/assignment) and
should be mandatory. I'd also like a bulk way to have this
added if possible - because I'm lazy and like many others,
have multiple allocations/assignments. Then - if one of
my allocations/assignments causes a problem to someone in
the world - they can easily find my abuse support address
to complain to. This really should be a no-brainer.<br>
</p>
<div>On 2020/09/19 10:59, Frank Habicht wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Hi,
On 19/09/2020 08:40, lucilla fornaro wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>I have to disagree!
The point is: the proposal does not define or give an indicator of what
an abuse is.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>It does NOT need to do that.
The policy is NOT about abuses.
It is about *abuse contacts*.
It is about publishing *abuse contacts* in case someone, like a network
operator (who knows what an abuse is), wants to send an abuse complaint.
Network operators know what an abuse is - if they care.
Others, and this policy, don't need to know what an abuse is.
People, including participants on this list, may even disagree about
what constitutes abuse. They might also conclude, and agree that "what
is an abuse" depends on country, opinion, operator policy, time-of-day,
etc.
These are all things irrelevant to this policy.
This was stated multiple times.
Some people seem to ignore this.
Some people seem to reiterate that a definition of abuse is needed.
I believe that others and myself have explained why that is not the case.
Do the chairs agree that issues are re-iterated that have been shown to
be irrelevant to the discussion of this policy?
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>It is not functional to propose a policy if the elements
present in it are not clear.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>I humbly request to differentiate between "abuse" (which this policy is
not directly about), and "abuse contacts" - which this policy aims to
ensure are to be published.
We have discussed sufficiently that the definition of "abuse" can vary.
Depending on /many/ things.
I believe we have agreed that the definition can vary.
Maybe the chairs can confirm that. I think this might be helpful.
The policy is about "abuse contacts".
I believe the 'elements present in it' are in fact clear.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>The main focus of the proposal is the
abuse,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>no. "abuse contacts".
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>you said that the proposal makes sure that there is a valid
response incase of an abuse report. BUT if people do not know what
Afrinic means for abuse,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>AfriNIC doesn't mean anything about "abuse".
AfriNIC, I believe, doesn't have a policy about what "abuse" is.
It is *NOT* for AfriNIC to decide that.
Network operators are capable of doing that.
Network operators are willing to do that.
If others - including participants on this list - are not able to define
what abuse is, that fact is irrelevant [1].
Because this policy is for the benefits of network operators.
And this policy affects AfriNIC Resource Members.
Participants on this mailing list are not required to be network
operators, nor are they required to be AfriNIC Resource Members.
Everybody is welcome.
But when it comes to discussing about the subject of this policy (which
is *abuse contacts*), it seems to be beneficial to understand some
distinctions.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>the reports will be too many, often
unreasonable, with a consequent waste of time and resources.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>so-called "Waste of resources" :
a) not on the part of AfriNIC
b) not on the part of network operators ignoring abuse complaints
c) possibly on the part of network operators filing abuse complaints
[who do understand that there is an unfortunately high chance of
getting ignored]
d) not on the part of recipients of abuse complaints who appreciate the
information in the complaints and are willing to
i) communicate with the complaintant
ii) clean up their network or customers, thus
iii) improving their own security and posture (housekeeping)
So, for those who want to be able to get abuse complaints, and for those
who want to "waste their time" with writing these abuse complaints, can
we pass this policy so that AfriNIC can enforce resource holders to
publish the abuse contacts....
..... without AfriNIC knowing or defining what constitutes abuse.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>In an ideal
world, the proposal would be efficient the way it is. But we do not live
in an ideal world.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>Is it an improvement? progress in the right direction?
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>If we want it to be effective in the long run, it is
necessary to make adjustments.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>disagree.
Also: you "forgot" to suggest the improvements here.
I wonder why.
I request the chairs to agree that supporters of the policy have shown
that a definition of "abuse" is not needed and continued calls for that
are not relevant.
Regards,
Frank
[1]
sorry, for the strong language of "irrelevant", but I think I better
make the thoughts very clear
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Lucilla
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Il giorno ven 18 set 2020 alle ore 21:43 Fernando Frediani
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a> <a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com></a>> ha scritto:
On 18/09/2020 05:22, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre> <clip>____
__ __
Again, this is not about defining what is abuse, this is among the
parties. It is about making sure that there is a valid responsible
contact in case of anyone needs to report what he considers an
abuse. AFRINIC will not punish anyone that believes that his
customer is not doing an abuse because in his country is not an abuse.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> Exactly !
Often people are misunderstanding the intention of the proposals and
opposing them for reasons that are not written on them, which end up
causing more confusion to other people.
I support this proposal
Fernando
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre> ____
__ __
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
__ __
__ __
__ __
El 18/9/20 9:59, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>
<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com></a>> escribió:____
__ __
Hello Jordi,____
__ __
RFC2142 only defines a tiny portion of the network abuse. In real
world operation, abuse consists of a much boarder range :
DMCA(copy rights) claims, unsolicited emails , phishing websites
, trade mark disputes etc. ____
__ __
All those are legal issues that vary vastly across different
juridictions in which no one but each of the juridiction’s judges
can decide if it is an abuse or an illegal activity. Claiming that
RFC2142 defines not even 1% of real world abuse is laughable.____
__ __
Regards,____
__ __
Lamiaa____
__ __
Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:51, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:rpd@afrinic.net></a>> a écrit :____
Hi Lamiaa,____
____
I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.____
____
Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
contacts in place.____
____
If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
around.____
____
Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
is different and need a definition?____
____
How you define it in the networks that you operate?____
____
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
____
____
____
El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>
<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com></a>> escribió:____
____
____
Hello,____
____
I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
like to add to it that :____
Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.____
Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
operation in a different jurisdiction.____
Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
entirely up to the member to define what they think is
acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
“abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
identify what is considered an abuse.____
Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
operation.____
____
Regards,____
____
Lamiaa____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:rpd@afrinic.net></a>> a écrit :____
Hi Lucilla,____
____
Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
networks you know that **anything** which is a
non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.____
____
If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
networks, etc., all those are abuse.____
____
What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
other regions of the world).____
____
Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
means that you have more chances to resolve it in
goodfaith.____
____
One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.____
____
Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
well in the other regions).____
____
You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).____
____
Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?____
____
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
____
____
____
El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
<<a href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>
<a href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com></a>> escribió:____
____
Dear all,____
____
I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.____
First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
different ways.____
____
Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
Afrinic’s purpose.____
____
I, therefore, oppose this policy.____
____
____
Thank you,____
____
Lucilla ____
_______________________________________________ RPD
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The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be
privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be
for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and
further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited
and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
if partially, including attached files, is strictly
prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must
reply to the original sender to inform about this
communication and delete it.
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<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
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Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:rpd@afrinic.net></a>> a écrit :____
Hi Lamiaa,____
____
I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.____
____
Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
contacts in place.____
____
If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
around.____
____
Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
is different and need a definition?____
____
How you define it in the networks that you operate?____
____
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
____
____
____
El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>
<a href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com></a>> escribió:____
____
____
Hello,____
____
I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
like to add to it that :____
Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.____
Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
operation in a different jurisdiction.____
Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
entirely up to the member to define what they think is
acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
“abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
identify what is considered an abuse.____
Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
operation.____
____
Regards,____
____
Lamiaa____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:rpd@afrinic.net></a>> a écrit :____
Hi Lucilla,____
____
Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
networks you know that **anything** which is a
non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.____
____
If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
networks, etc., all those are abuse.____
____
What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
other regions of the world).____
____
Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
means that you have more chances to resolve it in
goodfaith.____
____
One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.____
____
Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
well in the other regions).____
____
You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).____
____
Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?____
____
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
____
____
____
El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
<<a href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>
<a href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com></a>> escribió:____
____
Dear all,____
____
I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.____
First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
different ways.____
____
Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
Afrinic’s purpose.____
____
I, therefore, oppose this policy.____
____
____
Thank you,____
____
Lucilla ____
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This electronic message contains information which may be
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distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited
and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
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-- ____
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__ __
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> _______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<div>-- <br>
<p>Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa<br>
<a href="mailto:mje@posix.co.za" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">mje@posix.co.za</a> Tel:
<a href="tel:+27826010496" rel="noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank">+27.826010496</a><br>
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: <a href="https://ftth.posix.co.za" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://ftth.posix.co.za</a><br>
<br>
<img alt="Posix Systems" width="250" height="165"><img alt="VCARD for MJ Elkins" title="VCARD, Scan me
please!" width="164" height="164"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>-- <br>
<p>Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa<br>
<a href="mailto:mje@posix.co.za" target="_blank">mje@posix.co.za</a> Tel: <a href="tel:+27826010496" target="_blank">+27.826010496</a><br>
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: <a href="https://ftth.posix.co.za" target="_blank">https://ftth.posix.co.za</a><br>
<br>
<img src="cid:174a7345763a1b100691" alt="Posix
Systems" width="250" height="165"><img src="cid:174a7345764536060ae2" alt="VCARD for
MJ Elkins" title="VCARD, Scan me please!" width="164" height="164"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div>