<div dir="auto">I strongly agree with the salient issues raised here by Owen. I will add that RIPE is able to achieve cohesion because significantly there is selflessness in the community.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In AfriNIC there is a significant distrust and selfishness within the community. Hence, it is important we stick to an election procedure that is partially workable and acceptable. Again, an attempt to radically alter the procedure in such a fractious community can be disastrous.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Simply</div><div dir="auto">Daniel and</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 31, 2020 5:53 PM, "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">I am the one who said it would not work in Africa and that the discussions in Africa are both more fractious and more drama-prone than in RIPE. While this may be an uncomfortable truth, I believe that it is a measurable and documented fact.<div><br></div><div>Note that ranked voting is _NOT_ election by consensus at least not as practiced in RIPE and touted by Marcus. Ranked voting is a system of election by vote. It is an alternative to first past the post and I support the idea of Ranked voting.</div><div><br></div><div>One could argue that the end result of ranked voting is likely to be consistent with the end result of election by consensus _IF_ a consensus can be reliably achieved within the body of voters in question.</div><div><br></div><div>However, ranked choice voting is a kind of mathematically forced consensus and quite different from consensus voting as practiced in RIPE working groups. If the authors wish to modify their proposal to suggest a ranked-choice voting ballot, then I would not have a problem with that aspect of the proposal. That’s not what the current language calls for.</div><div><br></div><div>As I pointed out earlier, in RIPE, as long as the consensus has no controversy, it remains easy, but the RIPE solution in case consensus cannot be achieved in the working group is for the RIPE chair to simply decide and there is no appeal or check and balance on his decision.</div><div><br></div><div>To be honest, I’m not wild about that process in the RIPE region, but I would find it significantly more abberent in AFRINIC for the following reasons:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">     </span>1.<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">      </span>AFRINIC co-chair elections have a history of being significantly</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">         </span>more controversial than RIPE. As such, the fallback process which</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">                </span>is almost never used in RIPE would likely be far more common in</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">          </span>AFRINIC. (I suspect that if the fallback process in RIPE were to</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">         </span>see significant usage, its shortcomings would rapidly lead to a</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">          </span>more community-oriented approach to co-chair elections).</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">        </span>2.<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">      </span>The RIPE chair generally enjoys a more widespread and higher level</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">               </span>of community trust than is generally granted to the various AFRINIC</div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">              </span>elected leadership by the AFRINIC community.</div><div><br></div><div>Like it or not, these differences between the communities in the various regions do exist and they do impact the ability to successfully use a particular mechanism for conducting elections. IMHO, the paradigm used in the RIPE region is far from ideal even for RIPE, but it works because the RIPE community is surprisingly cohesive and the amount of controversy tends to be significantly less than in AFRINIC.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Aug 30, 2020, at 7:33 AM, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div>
  
    
  
  <div><p>I did not say such thing about Africa, please don't make up
      stuff.</p><p>I said very clearly elections by consensus are not good anywhere.
      Why make up stuff to support your argument ?</p><p>It is exactly the opposite. "Election" by consensus leaves a
      great margin for subjectivity and for fraud while election by vote
      eliminates any subjectivity in the process if the process is
      auditable.<br>
      This is how it's done in many other places and work as expected,
      without margin for disputes.<br>
      Why have a type of "election" that can only serve for the propose
      of margin for fraud and more disputes than the current ones ?</p><p>In my view the only fear of election by vote is from those who
      may not have them.<br>
    </p><p>Fernando<br>
    </p>
    <div>On 30/08/2020 10:02, Arnaud AMELINA
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr">La seule personne qui se répète c'est belle et
          bien toi Fernando. Tu semble dire qu'en Afrique on est pas
          capable de gérer une élection par consensus approximatif alors
          que d'autres régions le font et que c'est utopique, c'est un
          rêve, etc., pour ton information il existe bel et bien une
          forme d'élection qui s'apparente à une élection par consensus
          approximatif merci de suivre le lien suivant : <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Ranked_voting</a>.
          Tu es le seul à vouloir exiger d'aller vers une élection
          direct, quand on sait tout ce que ça comporte moyen d'abus. </div>
        <div dir="ltr"><br>
        </div>
        <div>Cordialement </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Arnaud </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 17:28,
          Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> a
          écrit :<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div><p>You must be joking with it or trying to make tricks and I
              am having a serious discussion.</p><p><br>
            </p><p>I already answered your question very clearly in the
              previous message very clearly. If you wish to discuss it
              in a serious way please go straight to the point.</p><p><br>
            </p><p>Fernando</p><p><br>
            </p>
            <div>On 29/08/2020 14:21, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
                Hi Fernando,
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Let me not get involve at this stage in the
                  discussions about which model of election is good or
                  bad for the PDPWG.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>You have not answered my question. I am posting it
                  again.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>I would like to find out whether you agree that the
                  election by consent is used by working groups in RIPE
                  region?</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Please do justice to it. </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Thanks</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Marcus</div>
                <br>
                <br>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
                  <br>
                </div>
                <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
                <div id="m_5370100912865434346gmail-m_1130370620668979900divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
                    sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Fernando
                    Frediani <a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a><br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 29, 2020 2:29 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
                    <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><rpd@afrinic.net></a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP
                    Working Group (WG) Guidelines and Procedures</font>
                  <div> </div>
                </div>
                <div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Seems the
                    authors are actually repeating the same arguments
                    and points.<br>
                    I am instead putting the many reasons election by
                    consensus is not feasible, specially in this
                    scenario we are going through currently.<br>
                  </div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">What doubt
                    you have about this position regardless the RIR or
                    region ? Perhaps you should read the messages again.</div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br>
                  </div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Fernando<br>
                  </div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>On 29/08/2020 10:31, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
                      Hi Fernando,
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Thank you for your reaction but it appears
                        you are not discussing but repeating yourself
                        with no value add. </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>I would like to find out whether you agree
                        that the election by consent is used by working
                        groups in RIPE region?</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Thanks</div>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
                      Marcus</div>
                    <div>
                      <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
                      <div id="m_5370100912865434346gmail-m_1130370620668979900x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b>
                          Fernando Frediani <a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a><br>
                          <b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 28, 2020 7:26 PM<br>
                          <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
                          <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><rpd@afrinic.net></a><br>
                          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP
                          Working Group (WG) Guidelines and Procedures</font>
                        <div> </div>
                      </div>
                      <div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
                            <div>Hello<br>
                              <br>
                              If we are having all this trouble to
                              define the next elections probably <br>
                              because there are multiple people
                              interested in the next elections, how <br>
                              can we dream about any consensus ?<br>
                              <br>
                              Consensus is for proposals, for a
                              collaborative improving process that <br>
                              may take months or even more than an year,
                              not for electing people.<br>
                              What is the fear to have a proper vote
                              process ? 1 person 1 vote and the <br>
                              candidate with most votes wins and servers
                              the term. What can go wrong ?<br>
                              When one is elected with most votes and
                              there are no signals of fraud <br>
                              there is no room for disputes and
                              discussions.<br>
                              <br>
                              Qualified people are people who
                              effectively participate in the <br>
                              construction of the process, who are truly
                              part of it and have <br>
                              commitment to it and not someone who is
                              just passing in front of the <br>
                              door once in a lifetime.<br>
                              <br>
                              Afrinic PDP doesn't even have yet the
                              possibility the Board to appoint <br>
                              interim Co-Chairs when necessary.<br>
                              <br>
                              Fernando<br>
                              <br>
                              On 28/08/2020 15:16, ALAIN AINA via RPD
                              wrote:<br>
                              > Hello,<br>
                              ><br>
                              > Below are our  responses to  last
                              comments received on list on this
                              proposal.<br>
                              ><br>
                              ><br>
                              > ###### Comment 1<br>
                              > Elections by consent is not for real
                              world.<br>
                              > #######<br>
                              ><br>
                              > It does work for working groups
                              chairs selection in RIPE region<br>
                              ><br>
                              > ##### Comment 2<br>
                              > It's just something too utopic.<br>
                              > #######<br>
                              ><br>
                              > As  utopic as  how “rough consensus”
                              appear until you experiment it and cherish<br>
                              ><br>
                              > ###### Comment3<br>
                              > Election by vote where qualified
                              people (with minimal requirements) vote
                              and the candidate with the highest votes
                              win, works in most places in the world
                              with less margin  for further disputes<br>
                              > ######<br>
                              ><br>
                              > there are many models of elections
                              with different ways of qualifying voters,
                              determining the winners, etc....<br>
                              > What you described is just one the
                              them. Not one fits all.<br>
                              ><br>
                              > Each  region adopts the best model
                              for its PDP and how chairs/lead for the
                              PDP activities are selected.<br>
                              > <a href="https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/" target="_blank">
https://www.apnic.net/<wbr>community/participate/sigs/<wbr>sig-guidelines/chair-<wbr>elections/rir-comparison-<wbr>table/</a><br>
                              ><br>
                              > One can see for example that in the
                              case of LACNIC where, there is an
                              electronic votes by those subscribed to
                              the policy mailing list, the elections
                              results “must” be ratified by consensus
                              among those present  at the PPM as judged
                              by the acting chairs. If results can’t be
                              rectified, board appoint an interim chair.<br>
                              ><br>
                              > The AFRINIC PDPWG adopted in the
                              past  the model of  votes by those
                              physical present at the PPM, until it
                              showed its limit recently.<br>
                              ><br>
                              > Can you please elaborate on how the
                              “qualified people” should be selected in
                              the context the PDPWG for the online
                              voting and how to prevent abuse and
                              further disputes?<br>
                              ><br>
                              ><br>
                              > HTH<br>
                              ><br>
                              > —Alain<br>
                              ><br>
                              ><br>
                              >
                              ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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                            </div>
                          </span></font></div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
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        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

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<br></blockquote></div></div>