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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=ES link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>The full point about this conversation is a wrong starting point, because I don’t think anyone is understanding the context, which is very different.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Can someone point where in the RIPE PDP talks about “elections by consensus” *<b>only</b>* ? I live there, I’m a very active participant (in all the 5 RIRs actually), and I tried to find that, as I didn’t recall it, and was not able to.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>For example:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/active-wg/ap/address-policy-wg-chair-selection-process"><span lang=EN-US>https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/active-wg/ap/address-policy-wg-chair-selection-process</span></a><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/active-wg/ipv6/ipv6-wg-chair-selection-process"><span lang=EN-US>https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/active-wg/ipv6/ipv6-wg-chair-selection-process</span></a><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>So, the proponents of that, can provide a link that contradicts that?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Now, what I recall from *<b>actual practices/happenings</b>* in WG elections in RIPE:<o:p></o:p></span></p><ol style='margin-top:0cm' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In RIPE we don’t have a single PDP WG, we have one for each topic (anti-abuse, services, addressing, routing, DNS, IoT, connect, cooperation, database, DNS, IPv6, open source, measurements – I think I didn’t forget any of them).<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Policy proposals belong to the WG that is more appropriate, except those related to the PDP itself, which belongs to the RIPE community co-chairs (which a different election process that didn’t existed and was developed just a few months ago). Previously the previous chair (a single one) was appointing the new one (if I recall correctly). For example, most of the policy proposal typically belong to the addressing WG, but others go into routing, anti-abuse, services, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>EACH WG has 2 or even 3 co-chairs.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In several occasions, I recall a WG having a single candidate for the elections. So, it is done by “acclamation”.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In other occasions there were 2 candidates and it was obvious that one of those got more support, and the other one withdraws by himself or some other folks in the WG asked him/her to do so, so the “most popular” was elected by acclamation.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In other occasions, if I recall correctly, we decided to elect both of them, so we reached 3 (when the WG before had 2).<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I don’t recall any WG having got more than 2 candidates, if that happened, we do by means of a ballot. I don’t recall having got into the need to run this for many many many many years (20 maybe?).<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Now, this system works in RIPE because:<o:p></o:p></span></p><ol style='margin-top:0cm' start=1 type=a><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>We have the fallback to the paper ballot.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Candidates are not many (because there are many WGs).<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>This is something that has been developed during decades.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>People is not fighting among themselves; they volunteer because they have real interest in contributing to the community, and contributing is not only done being a co-chair, so if you are a candidate and feel that someone else can do a better job, instead of being egoist, you “concede” (which is the latin root of consensus). That means that if somebody else is volunteering as well, you will be mature, gentle and more than happy to withdraw yourself and support the other guy. This is about cooperation.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>This also means that most of the WG chairs are often re-elected, because they have the experience to judge consensus and this is very well appreciated by the community. We all make mistakes, but as longer time we are in the position, we learn and make less mistakes. This is similar as in IETF, often co-chairs don’t change very often for many years. And in this case they aren’t elected by the community but instead by the IESG.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I will be happy to support this ASAP this community also can confirm that if there are several cochair candidates they will talk among them and withdraw their candidacy in favor of one of them.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>May be the actual candidates could state if they wish to withdraw in favor of a single one of them?<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>*** Reading policies in other regions is often **NOT ENOUGH**. If you’re not active (even more, *<b>very active</b>*) there, you will be misunderstanding it, because is not just about the letter, but also the practices and understanding how the people in the community works there. I think I’ve demonstrated that. I can tell you what are the practices and the *<b>actual</b>* interpretation of the policies in the 5 regions. Not sure if others can say the same.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I hope this is useful, specially g above … Let’s see the results, to understand if this can work here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 29/8/20 15:38, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <<a href="mailto:madomey@hotmail.com">madomey@hotmail.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Hi Fernando, <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Thank you for your reaction but it appears you are not discussing but repeating yourself with no value add. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I would like to find out whether you agree that the election by consent is used by working groups in RIPE region?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Marcus<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:35.4pt;text-align:center'><hr size=0 width="100%" align=center></div><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><b><span style='color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='color:black'> Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani@gmail.com><br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 28, 2020 7:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> rpd@afrinic.net <rpd@afrinic.net><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG) Guidelines and Procedures</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Hello<br><br>If we are having all this trouble to define the next elections probably <br>because there are multiple people interested in the next elections, how <br>can we dream about any consensus ?<br><br>Consensus is for proposals, for a collaborative improving process that <br>may take months or even more than an year, not for electing people.<br>What is the fear to have a proper vote process ? 1 person 1 vote and the <br>candidate with most votes wins and servers the term. What can go wrong ?<br>When one is elected with most votes and there are no signals of fraud <br>there is no room for disputes and discussions.<br><br>Qualified people are people who effectively participate in the <br>construction of the process, who are truly part of it and have <br>commitment to it and not someone who is just passing in front of the <br>door once in a lifetime.<br><br>Afrinic PDP doesn't even have yet the possibility the Board to appoint <br>interim Co-Chairs when necessary.<br><br>Fernando<br><br>On 28/08/2020 15:16, ALAIN AINA via RPD wrote:<br>> Hello,<br>><br>> Below are our responses to last comments received on list on this proposal.<br>><br>><br>> ###### Comment 1<br>> Elections by consent is not for real world.<br>> #######<br>><br>> It does work for working groups chairs selection in RIPE region<br>><br>> ##### Comment 2<br>> It's just something too utopic.<br>> #######<br>><br>> As utopic as how “rough consensus” appear until you experiment it and cherish<br>><br>> ###### Comment3<br>> Election by vote where qualified people (with minimal requirements) vote and the candidate with the highest votes win, works in most places in the world with less margin for further disputes<br>> ######<br>><br>> there are many models of elections with different ways of qualifying voters, determining the winners, etc....<br>> What you described is just one the them. Not one fits all.<br>><br>> Each region adopts the best model for its PDP and how chairs/lead for the PDP activities are selected.<br>> <a href="https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/">https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/</a><br>><br>> One can see for example that in the case of LACNIC where, there is an electronic votes by those subscribed to the policy mailing list, the elections results “must” be ratified by consensus among those present at the PPM as judged by the acting chairs. If results can’t be rectified, board appoint an interim chair.<br>><br>> The AFRINIC PDPWG adopted in the past the model of votes by those physical present at the PPM, until it showed its limit recently.<br>><br>> Can you please elaborate on how the “qualified people” should be selected in the context the PDPWG for the online voting and how to prevent abuse and further disputes?<br>><br>><br>> HTH<br>><br>> —Alain<br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> RPD mailing list<br>> RPD@afrinic.net<br>> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>RPD mailing list<br>RPD@afrinic.net<br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list RPD@afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd <o:p></o:p></p></div><br>**********************************************<br>
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