<div dir="auto"><div>Je vais répondre en Anglais à ce message pour que la traduction ne laisse pas croire à une attaque personnelle de ma part.<div dir="auto"><br></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le dim. 30 août 2020 à 14:34, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I did not say such thing about Africa, please don't make up
stuff.</p>
<p>I said very clearly elections by consensus are not good anywhere.
Why make up stuff to support your argument ?</p>
<p>It is exactly the opposite. "Election" by consensus leaves a
great margin for subjectivity and for fraud while election by vote
eliminates any subjectivity in the process if the process is
auditable.<br>
This is how it's done in many other places and work as expected,
without margin for disputes.<br>
Why have a type of "election" that can only serve for the propose
of margin for fraud and more disputes than the current ones ?</p>
<p>In my view the only fear of election by vote is from those who
may not have them.<br></p></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Some people have the votes and can’t express it through the merits of their candidate on public through the election by consensus?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It is obvious where the fear is. It is with people who think PDPWG cochairs are Kings and policy makers and must have them.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Thanks</div><div dir="auto">Arnaud </div></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><p>
</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<div>On 30/08/2020 10:02, Arnaud AMELINA
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">La seule personne qui se répète c'est belle et
bien toi Fernando. Tu semble dire qu'en Afrique on est pas
capable de gérer une élection par consensus approximatif alors
que d'autres régions le font et que c'est utopique, c'est un
rêve, etc., pour ton information il existe bel et bien une
forme d'élection qui s'apparente à une élection par consensus
approximatif merci de suivre le lien suivant : <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting</a>.
Tu es le seul à vouloir exiger d'aller vers une élection
direct, quand on sait tout ce que ça comporte moyen d'abus. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>Cordialement </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Arnaud </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 17:28,
Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>You must be joking with it or trying to make tricks and I
am having a serious discussion.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I already answered your question very clearly in the
previous message very clearly. If you wish to discuss it
in a serious way please go straight to the point.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Fernando</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 29/08/2020 14:21, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Hi Fernando,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me not get involve at this stage in the
discussions about which model of election is good or
bad for the PDPWG.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You have not answered my question. I am posting it
again.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to find out whether you agree that the
election by consent is used by working groups in RIPE
region?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please do justice to it. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Marcus</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="m_-7392937921541422113gmail-m_1130370620668979900divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Fernando
Frediani <a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 29, 2020 2:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><rpd@afrinic.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP
Working Group (WG) Guidelines and Procedures</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Seems the
authors are actually repeating the same arguments
and points.<br>
I am instead putting the many reasons election by
consensus is not feasible, specially in this
scenario we are going through currently.<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">What doubt
you have about this position regardless the RIR or
region ? Perhaps you should read the messages again.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Fernando<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br>
</p>
<div>On 29/08/2020 10:31, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Hi Fernando,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for your reaction but it appears
you are not discussing but repeating yourself
with no value add. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to find out whether you agree
that the election by consent is used by working
groups in RIPE region?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Marcus</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="m_-7392937921541422113gmail-m_1130370620668979900x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Fernando Frediani <a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 28, 2020 7:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><rpd@afrinic.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP
Working Group (WG) Guidelines and Procedures</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div>Hello<br>
<br>
If we are having all this trouble to
define the next elections probably <br>
because there are multiple people
interested in the next elections, how <br>
can we dream about any consensus ?<br>
<br>
Consensus is for proposals, for a
collaborative improving process that <br>
may take months or even more than an year,
not for electing people.<br>
What is the fear to have a proper vote
process ? 1 person 1 vote and the <br>
candidate with most votes wins and servers
the term. What can go wrong ?<br>
When one is elected with most votes and
there are no signals of fraud <br>
there is no room for disputes and
discussions.<br>
<br>
Qualified people are people who
effectively participate in the <br>
construction of the process, who are truly
part of it and have <br>
commitment to it and not someone who is
just passing in front of the <br>
door once in a lifetime.<br>
<br>
Afrinic PDP doesn't even have yet the
possibility the Board to appoint <br>
interim Co-Chairs when necessary.<br>
<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
On 28/08/2020 15:16, ALAIN AINA via RPD
wrote:<br>
> Hello,<br>
><br>
> Below are our responses to last
comments received on list on this
proposal.<br>
><br>
><br>
> ###### Comment 1<br>
> Elections by consent is not for real
world.<br>
> #######<br>
><br>
> It does work for working groups
chairs selection in RIPE region<br>
><br>
> ##### Comment 2<br>
> It's just something too utopic.<br>
> #######<br>
><br>
> As utopic as how “rough consensus”
appear until you experiment it and cherish<br>
><br>
> ###### Comment3<br>
> Election by vote where qualified
people (with minimal requirements) vote
and the candidate with the highest votes
win, works in most places in the world
with less margin for further disputes<br>
> ######<br>
><br>
> there are many models of elections
with different ways of qualifying voters,
determining the winners, etc....<br>
> What you described is just one the
them. Not one fits all.<br>
><br>
> Each region adopts the best model
for its PDP and how chairs/lead for the
PDP activities are selected.<br>
> <a href="https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/</a><br>
><br>
> One can see for example that in the
case of LACNIC where, there is an
electronic votes by those subscribed to
the policy mailing list, the elections
results “must” be ratified by consensus
among those present at the PPM as judged
by the acting chairs. If results can’t be
rectified, board appoint an interim chair.<br>
><br>
> The AFRINIC PDPWG adopted in the
past the model of votes by those
physical present at the PPM, until it
showed its limit recently.<br>
><br>
> Can you please elaborate on how the
“qualified people” should be selected in
the context the PDPWG for the online
voting and how to prevent abuse and
further disputes?<br>
><br>
><br>
> HTH<br>
><br>
> —Alain<br>
><br>
><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> RPD mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
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</span></font></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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