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    <p>Thanks for sharing your reading on it but that not 'plain
      English' as it may look like.  3.6 was written and thought for
      policy proposal procedures not for what we are doing right now.
      What we are doing right now is pure free discussion and
      speculation. You have your view and I have mine. Using 3.6 to do
      something else is a 'glued solution' that doesn't correspond to
      what it was thought to.<br>
    </p>
    <p>For 3.6 to be used a proposal must be presented and be under
      discussion with review and Last Call for at least 4 weeks. If it
      passes then fine to conduct the resolution of this issue under
      these new terms properly justified as 3.6 outlines.</p>
    <p>Fernando<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/07/2020 00:05, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:1D3C0969-FC3F-4C21-A7FE-012AD60CEFCF@delong.com">
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          <div class="">On Jul 20, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Fernando Frediani
            <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class=""
              moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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              <p class="">Hi Owen. Sorry I don't really read the 3.6 the
                same way as you. 3.6 in my view wasn't thought for
                situation like this. It's being glued for the occasion
                that's not the case. 3.6 is about how the proposals are
                conducted, reviewed and passed within this forum in a
                exceptional situation (pretty much where we are). All
                points mentioned there have to do with proposals. We are
                not discussing or advancing a proposal right now.<br
                  class="">
              </p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        That’s your special interpretation. It’s not what a plain
        english reading of the language says.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>1.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">      </span>The
        PDP is in the document containing 3.6. The PDP is a process.</div>
      <div>2.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">      </span>The
        co-chair election process is in the document containing 3.6. The
        co-chair election process is a process.</div>
      <div>3.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">      </span>3.6
        says “The process outlined in this document…”.</div>
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""> </p>
              <p class="">What CAN actually be done within 3.6 is
                someone to properly present a proposal to amend the PDP
                and fix the issues we are discussing here and then have
                this proposal treated under 3.6 (with no less than 4
                weeks including the Last Call - which coincides with
                your point number 3 below).</p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        I suppose that could also work, though it’s rather indirect and
        adds (unnecessary IMHO) complexity.<br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class="">In my opinion proposal
                AFPUB-2019-GEN-007-DRAFT01 is ready for it, but I guess
                that may not reach consensus. So a much shorter proposal
                with just the essential we need to resolve this
                situation is the way to go under 3.6. Would that match
                with what you are trying to put ?<br class="">
              </p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        IMHO, AFPUB-2019-GEN-007-DRAFT01 is a fatally flawed proposal
        and I would not support it as currently written.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>I think a much more direct proposal to clarify an expanded
        scope of 3.6 (closer to my interpretation instead of your rather
        narrow interpretation) would be the most likely to gain
        consensus, frankly. I think such is unnecessary, but _IF_ you
        insist on the (oddly) narrow interpretation of 3.6 you have put
        forth, then…</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>Owen</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class=""> </p>
              <p class="">Fernando<br class="">
              </p>
              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20/07/2020 21:52, Owen
                DeLong wrote:<br class="">
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite"
                cite="mid:9418E82A-1159-498D-ABEB-6AE4CC3DAD8E@delong.com"
                class="">
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                <div class=""><br class="">
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <div class="">On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:00 AM, Fernando
                      Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
                        class="" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
                      wrote:</div>
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                        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20/07/2020
                          13:39, Owen DeLong wrote:<br class="">
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite"
                          cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
                          class="">
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                            This is an absurd claim. The standard (as
                            you mention below) is a “raise of hands”
                            vote. This mechanism even in person does not
                            allow people to verify that their vote was
                            cast correctly, nor is it fully auditable
                            (indeed, it has no audit trail and is not at
                            all audible).</div>
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">Placing more stringent
                            requirements than exist on the current
                            system as an acceptance criteria for a
                            system deployed urgently in a time of crisis
                            makes little sense to me.</div>
                        </blockquote>
                        You are not making the things easier given the
                        circumstances and all has been been discussed
                        here.<br class="">
                        What is being said is analogous to raise of hand
                        and is also a indisputable way to eliminate most
                        possible fraud that have been pointed.<br
                          class="">
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  It is not my goal to make things easier for you or
                  even necessarily easier in general.</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">It is my goal to achieve the best possible
                  outcome through a mechanism that comes as close to
                  applying the PDP rules as possible.</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <blockquote type="cite"
                          cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
                          class="">
                          <div class="">
                            <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                              <div class="">
                                <div class="">
                                  <p class="">4 - In order to either
                                    choose another Co-Chair or to extend
                                    the current one term there must be a
                                    vote with raise of hands. There is
                                    no other way out of the PDP this can
                                    be done.<br class="">
                                  </p>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            This statement ignores CPM section 3.6:</div>
                          <blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border:
                            none; padding: 0px;" class="">
                            <div class="">
                              <h3 style="box-sizing: border-box;
                                font-family: "Open Sans",
                                sans-serif; font-weight: normal;
                                line-height: 1.1; color: rgb(117, 117,
                                117); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
                                10px; font-size: 24px; caret-color:
                                rgb(117, 117, 117);" class="">3.6  Varying
                                the Process</h3>
                            </div>
                            <div class="">
                              <p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin:
                                0px 0px 5px; caret-color: rgb(117, 117,
                                117); color: rgb(117, 117, 117);
                                font-family: Roboto, sans-serif;
                                font-size: 14px;" class="">The process
                                outlined in this document may vary in
                                the case of an emergency. Variance is
                                for use when a one-time waiving of some
                                provision of this document is required.</p>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div class="">
                            <ol style="box-sizing: border-box;
                              margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px;
                              caret-color: rgb(117, 117, 117); color:
                              rgb(117, 117, 117); font-family: Roboto,
                              sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="">
                              <ol class="">
                                <li style="box-sizing: border-box;"
                                  class="">The decision to vary the
                                  process is taken by a Working Group
                                  Chair.</li>
                                <li style="box-sizing: border-box;"
                                  class="">There must be an explanation
                                  about why the variance is needed.</li>
                                <li style="box-sizing: border-box;"
                                  class="">The review period, including
                                  the Last Call, shall not be less than
                                  four weeks.</li>
                                <li style="box-sizing: border-box;"
                                  class="">If there is consensus, the
                                  policy is approved and it must be
                                  presented at the next Public Policy
                                  Meeting.</li>
                              </ol>
                            </ol>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            Clearly this is the kind of exceptional
                            circumstance in which some variance could be
                            justified.</div>
                        </blockquote>
                        Sorry I don't see 3.6 applying to this situation
                        on *any* of points mentioned. This section is
                        about how the policies discussion, review, last
                        call, etc work  1) As I understand this decision
                        is not up to the Chairs to take 2)Yes, we are
                        working on the explanation, but who will give it
                        ? Normally is whoever take the decision. 3)
                        Nothing to do with elections 4) Nothing to do
                        with the current scenario. There is no proper
                        policy under discussion to be approved, only a
                        discussion of what to do about the next
                        elections.<br class="">
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  It applies to all of the CPM ("The process outlined in
                  this document may vary…”).</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>1.
                  If not the co-chairs, then who?</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>2.
                  I think the explanation is well understood… “Because
                  in person meeting during the COVID crisis is
                  impossible.”</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>3.
                  I’m not so sure about this. Whatever election process
                  we decide on should be put to a final community
                  comment</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">           </span>period
                  of some form. I see no reason that should be less than
                  4 weeks.</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>4.
                  So you’re saying that the determination of how to (or
                  whether to) conduct co-chair elections should be made</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">           </span>by
                  some other method than community consensus and should
                  not be considered policy at least for this meeting?</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">           </span>How
                  does that work?</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <blockquote type="cite"
                          cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
                          class="">
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">I still say that a (virtual)
                            raising of hands using the mechanisms
                            available in nearly every conferencing
                            system capable of supporting</div>
                          <div class="">this meeting has the following
                            advantages:</div>
                          <div class="">q<br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>Only
                            meeting attendees may vote.</div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>Botting
                            your meeting attendance would be reasonably
                            difficult, so it would be difficult for a
                            person to stuff the ballot box.</div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>It
                            does meet the literal requirements of the
                            existing PDP.</div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>4.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>If
                            we place reasonable bounds on meeting
                            registration, we can avoid the so-called
                            “sleeper cell” effect that some have</div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">         </span>put
                            forth as a concern. (Personally, I think
                            this is less likely in a virtual meeting
                            anyway).</div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>5.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>If
                            we place reasonable bounds on meeting
                            registration, we also manage to prevent (2)
                            from being a concern.</div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>6.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>By
                            “reasonable bounds”, I mean pick a date
                            certain in the past by which one must have
                            been subscribed to RPD.</div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">         </span>Each
                            email subscribed to RPD is entitled to one
                            corresponding meeting registration if they
                            choose to. No subscribed</div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">         </span>email,
                            no registration for the meeting.</div>
                        </blockquote>
                        I quiet like this idea, and that is exactly
                        which is under discussion in one of the policies
                        that should advance, but this is not backed in
                        any part of PDP as far as I know as the moment.
                        Who will determine what date is this ?<br
                          class="">
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  This would most certainly be a variation of the PDP to
                  meet the emergency as it exists which would be
                  permitted under 3.6, so, yes,</div>
                <div class="">my argument here depends on my argument
                  above which you have claimed you are not buying.
                  However, hopefully with my expansions on</div>
                <div class="">the topic above, I can perhaps convince
                  you to change your mind and recognize that without
                  something like that, we literally box</div>
                <div class="">ourselves into a situation with no way
                  forward until such time as we can arrange an in-person
                  meeting. Personally, I think that’s</div>
                <div class="">far from the best outcome.</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <blockquote type="cite"
                          cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
                          class="">
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>7.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>My
                            suggestions for the date certain would be
                            the first day of the originally scheduled in
                            person AIS 2020 (May 31) or</div>
                          <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">         </span>the
                            originally scheduled first day of the public
                            policy meeting (June 8 IIRC).</div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <p class="">This would make sense if there was
                          basis for it, but currently there is AFAIK.</p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  The basis for it is 3.6. Read the CPM carefully read
                  3.6. It’s not rocket science. The CPM describes all of
                  the policies, the PDP, and the co-chair election
                  process within the one document. Section 3.6 provides
                  for variance of the process[sic] should be processes
                  within</div>
                <div class="">the document. That includes the co-chair
                  election process unless you can show me why it does
                  not.</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Owen</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <p class="">Fernando<br class="">
                        </p>
                        <blockquote type="cite"
                          cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
                          class="">
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">If anyone has a reason they
                            don’t think this is viable, please express
                            it. So far, I’ve seen lots of calls for
                            other solutions, but this</div>
                          <div class="">seems to be the approach with
                            the fewest drawbacks and which can easily be
                            implemented in time.</div>
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">Owen</div>
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">
                            <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                              <div class="">
                                <div class="">
                                  <div class=""> <br
                                      class="webkit-block-placeholder">
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="">Regards<br class="">
                                    Fernando</p>
                                  <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
                                    20/07/2020 03:06, Daniel Yakmut
                                    wrote:<br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAB3X6meTt=Pw8az5fmYeO6vaSiNOLL8pkG91YuBemSAjFWiwOw@mail.gmail.com"
                                    class="">
                                    <meta http-equiv="content-type"
                                      content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
                                      class="">
                                    <div dir="auto" class="">Dear All,
                                      <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                          class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">We arrive
                                        at the airport and I will be
                                        turning the simple matter placed
                                        on the table into a circus. The
                                        simple matter was:</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                          class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">1. We
                                        will have AIS 2020 online and in
                                        September.</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">2. A
                                        Co-chair's  tenure has already
                                        ended. So an electronic election
                                        is being proposed as part of the
                                        AIS 2020 Agenda. The question
                                        is, is this possible?</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">3. It is
                                        a fact that the Co-chair is
                                        currently serving within an
                                        extended period. </div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">4. We now
                                        agree that the introduction of
                                        e-voting is inevitable, as
                                        demonstrated by the pandemic.</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                          class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">However
                                        it is clear that</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">1. We are
                                        going to have an online meeting
                                        , as nobody has disagreed to
                                        that.</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">2. There
                                        is a strong advocacy, for a
                                        process to include e-voting in
                                        the Region, but the timing is
                                        short. Therefore we need to
                                        commence the plan of creating an
                                        enabling atmosphere to integrate
                                        e-voting.</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">3. We
                                        need to ratify the extended
                                        period for a co-chair
                                        tentatively for 12months. Which
                                        he has spent a month or so
                                        already.</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">4. Ensure
                                        we have an acceptable e-voting
                                        system ready for the next date
                                        of election.</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">5. Let
                                        agreed clearly on this simple
                                        issue and prepare for the coming
                                        meeting.</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                          class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">Simply</div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">Daniel</div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div class="gmail_extra"><br
                                        class="">
                                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Jul
                                        19, 2020 11:20 PM, "Fernando
                                        Frediani" <<a
                                          href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
                                        wrote:<br type="attribution"
                                          class="">
                                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                          style="margin:0 0 0
                                          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                          <div dir="auto" class="">
                                            <div class="">I have read
                                              this message and several
                                              questions come to mind as
                                              for example:</div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                                class="">
                                            </div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class="">-
                                              What basis was used to say
                                              "it was overwhelmingly"
                                              rejected ?</div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                                class="">
                                            </div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class="">-
                                              Who actuallty represents
                                              the "current" community to
                                              state it was "totally
                                              rejected" ?</div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                                class="">
                                            </div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class="">-
                                              Whats basis was used to
                                              say that it would not work
                                              in the region if that
                                              works in several other
                                              places and RIRs including,
                                              with auditable systems ?</div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                                class="">
                                            </div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class="">-
                                              Whats basis is used to say
                                              rhe community that voted
                                              for the current Co-Chair
                                              in Kampla has the same
                                              confidence in him and that
                                              he would win ? It seems
                                              more a personal wish than
                                              anything based on fact or
                                              logic.</div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                                class="">
                                            </div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class="">-
                                              Even in order to extend
                                              the current Co-Chair term
                                              the PDP MUST be followed
                                              and there are no other
                                              ways written there other
                                              than another vote.
                                              Otherwise how can this be
                                              done ?</div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                                class="">
                                            </div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class="">Fernando</div>
                                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                                class="">
                                              <br class="">
                                              <div class="gmail_quote"
                                                dir="auto">
                                                <div dir="ltr"
                                                  class="gmail_attr">On
                                                  Sun, 19 Jul 2020,
                                                  18:08 Emem William,
                                                  <<a
                                                    href="mailto:dwizard65@gmail.com"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                    class="">dwizard65@gmail.com</a>>
                                                  wrote:<br class="">
                                                </div>
                                                <blockquote
                                                  class="gmail_quote"
                                                  style="margin:0 0 0
                                                  .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                  #ccc
                                                  solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                  <div dir="auto"
                                                    class="">
                                                    <div dir="auto"
                                                      class="">Dear
                                                      All, </div>
                                                    <div dir="auto"
                                                      class=""><br
                                                        class="">
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div dir="auto"
                                                      class="">I can 
                                                      recollect that a
                                                      similar proposal
                                                      was proposed as a
                                                      policy and it was
                                                      overwhelmingly
                                                      rejected in
                                                      Angola. The
                                                      current community
                                                      totally rejected
                                                      the policy no one
                                                      except the authors
                                                      supported the idea
                                                      because we know it
                                                      can't work in this
                                                      region. Using
                                                      online voting now
                                                      would be like
                                                      passing the policy
                                                      using the
                                                      backdoor. Am sure
                                                      Jordie would like
                                                      this idea and
                                                      hence his
                                                      enthusiasm.
                                                      However my candid
                                                      opinion is that we
                                                      can't do this. The
                                                      most appropriate
                                                      way forward is to
                                                      allow the Co chair
                                                      who has been doing
                                                      a fantastic job to
                                                      continue for
                                                      another 12 months
                                                      or till the next
                                                      face to face
                                                      meeting. The
                                                      community that
                                                      voted him in
                                                      Kampala still have
                                                      confidence in him.
                                                      In any case even
                                                      with an online
                                                      election he would
                                                      still likely win
                                                      but I don't want
                                                      polices to be
                                                      passed through the
                                                      back door.
                                                      Therefore I think
                                                      the most
                                                      appropriate way
                                                      for this has been
                                                      suggested as an
                                                      extension for the
                                                      co-chair who's
                                                      seat would have
                                                      been contested.</div>
                                                    <div dir="auto"
                                                      class=""><br
                                                        class="">
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div dir="auto"
                                                      class="">Cheers.</div>
                                                    <div dir="auto"
                                                      class=""><br
                                                        class="">
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div
                                                      data-smartmail="gmail_signature"
                                                      class="">Emem E.
                                                      William<br
                                                        class="">
                                                      <br class="">
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
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