<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Hi Owen,<div><br></div><div>As a premium member - permit me to use that qualification - of the Internet community world wide, i am sure that you are aware that in Afrinic, to ratify a policy being proposed, consensus is required and not voting. </div><div><br></div><div>This means that in an online meeting scenario, valid debate on the proposal will be laid out by Various individuals and the co-chairs determines consensus. On the order hand, online voting is most likely anonymous and as the name implies, it is a “vote” and not consensus. So i think ratifying the policy and voting are totally different situations. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I am sure you know this. So i will imagine I understood you differently</div><div><br></div><div>Taiwo<br><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 21 Jul 2020, at 01:32, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 20, 2020, at 11:28 AM, Taiwo Oyewande <<a href="mailto:taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com" class="">taiwo.oyewande88@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Dear All,</div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">The debate on running online voting or not at this time is a delicate situation and there are a few things to consider. </div><div dir="ltr" class="">1.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Online voting would cause doubt on the authenticity of the result, which can arise from the scare of hackers or even the total distrust of the system. This can bring disunity in the community. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I think this is only true if you define the community as every random entity on the internet who requests the opportunity to vote regardless of their authentication or prior participation in the community at even the most basic level of subscribing to the mailing list.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">2.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The idea of excluding some registered participants based on a certain criteria is totally wrong – as was stated severally during the last meeting in Angola- in my opinion, every community member/ participant has a right to vote. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I think that if the criteria is no more than “was this person a functional member of the community as of X date?” that you really have a hard time saying that you have not permitted at least the vast majority of community members. Even at the meeting in Angola, you had to have registered for the meeting in order to attend and vote, right?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>While I realize that requiring past subscription to the mailing list may (temporarily) disenfranchise a very small number of people (perhaps staff can tell us how many new subscriptions since June 8). Frankly, I’d even be OK if the cutoff were July 19 at this point.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The point is to pick a date in the past so that retroactive multi-subscription isn’t possible, thus eliminating the potential to stuff the ballot box.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Some proposals have been brought up about extending the tenure of the current co- chair while the community works on a permanent online procedure to be ratified possibly during the coming meeting. This is a brilliant idea as there will be enough time for the proposed online voting system to be vetted, trusted and accepted by the community. I see this as a way forward and I encourage the community to back this solution.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>How cn you ratify the procedure if you can’t figure out how to vote? In order for the community to ratify something, we must vote on it. The idea of a vote by some random procedure in order to approve a voting procedure for electing the co-chairs seems odd at best.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Other RIRs have done just fine with the raised hands votes available in virtually every meeting platform. Please explain why you think this cannot be trusted or accepted by the community here?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class="">Kind regards </div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class="">Taiwo</div></div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 20 Jul 2020, at 17:42, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" class="">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 20, 2020, at 05:11 , Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Hello Daniel</p><p class="">Thanks for putting a resume. So to add up I have the following:</p><p class="">1 - Section 3.3 of the PDP it says: "<i class="">The PDWG Chairs are
chosen by the AFRINIC community during the Public Policy Meeting
and serve staggered two-year terms</i>". The Public Policy
Meeting will be held online. It also says: "<i class="">Anyone present at
the meeting, whether in person <b class="">or by remote participation</b>,
may participate in the selection process for a temporary Chair.</i>"</p><p class="">2 - Who can be present at this meeting ? Only those present
(therefore registered) to participate, not all registered in this
email list.<br class="">
</p><p class="">3 - The choosing of the e-voting system is a AfriNic staff task
and there are different system already used for the very same
proposes as for example the LACNIC's one. It must be a system that
allow people to verify their vote was cast correctly and be fully
auditable.</p></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div>This is an absurd claim. The standard (as you mention below) is a “raise of hands” vote. This mechanism even in person does not allow people to verify that their vote was cast correctly, nor is it fully auditable (indeed, it has no audit trail and is not at all audible).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Placing more stringent requirements than exist on the current system as an acceptance criteria for a system deployed urgently in a time of crisis makes little sense to me.</div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">4 - In order to either choose another Co-Chair or to extend the
current one term there must be a vote with raise of hands. There
is no other way out of the PDP this can be done.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>This statement ignores CPM section 3.6:</div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><h3 style="box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Open Sans", sans-serif; font-weight: normal; line-height: 1.1; color: rgb(117, 117, 117); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px; font-size: 24px; caret-color: rgb(117, 117, 117);" class="">3.6 <a id="Varying-Process" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(210, 114, 70); transition: color 400ms, background-color 400ms;" class=""></a>Varying the Process</h3></div><div class=""><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 5px; caret-color: rgb(117, 117, 117); color: rgb(117, 117, 117); font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="">The process outlined in this document may vary in the case of an emergency. Variance is for use when a one-time waiving of some provision of this document is required.</p></div></blockquote><div class=""><ol style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px; caret-color: rgb(117, 117, 117); color: rgb(117, 117, 117); font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=""><ol class=""><li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">The decision to vary the process is taken by a Working Group Chair.</li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">There must be an explanation about why the variance is needed.</li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">The review period, including the Last Call, shall not be less than four weeks.</li><li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">If there is consensus, the policy is approved and it must be presented at the next Public Policy Meeting.</li></ol></ol><div class=""><br class=""></div>Clearly this is the kind of exceptional circumstance in which some variance could be justified.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I still say that a (virtual) raising of hands using the mechanisms available in nearly every conferencing system capable of supporting</div><div class="">this meeting has the following advantages:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Only meeting attendees may vote.</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Botting your meeting attendance would be reasonably difficult, so it would be difficult for a person to stuff the ballot box.</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>It does meet the literal requirements of the existing PDP.</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>4.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If we place reasonable bounds on meeting registration, we can avoid the so-called “sleeper cell” effect that some have</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>put forth as a concern. (Personally, I think this is less likely in a virtual meeting anyway).</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>5.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If we place reasonable bounds on meeting registration, we also manage to prevent (2) from being a concern.</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>6.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>By “reasonable bounds”, I mean pick a date certain in the past by which one must have been subscribed to RPD.</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Each email subscribed to RPD is entitled to one corresponding meeting registration if they choose to. No subscribed</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>email, no registration for the meeting.</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>7.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>My suggestions for the date certain would be the first day of the originally scheduled in person AIS 2020 (May 31) or</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>the originally scheduled first day of the public policy meeting (June 8 IIRC).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If anyone has a reason they don’t think this is viable, please express it. So far, I’ve seen lots of calls for other solutions, but this</div><div class="">seems to be the approach with the fewest drawbacks and which can easily be implemented in time.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class="">
<br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">Regards<br class="">
Fernando</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20/07/2020 03:06, Daniel Yakmut
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAB3X6meTt=Pw8az5fmYeO6vaSiNOLL8pkG91YuBemSAjFWiwOw@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Dear All,
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">We arrive at the airport and I will be turning
the simple matter placed on the table into a circus. The
simple matter was:</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">1. We will have AIS 2020 online and in
September.</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">2. A Co-chair's tenure has already ended. So an
electronic election is being proposed as part of the AIS 2020
Agenda. The question is, is this possible?</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">3. It is a fact that the Co-chair is currently
serving within an extended period. </div>
<div dir="auto" class="">4. We now agree that the introduction of
e-voting is inevitable, as demonstrated by the pandemic.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">However it is clear that</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">1. We are going to have an online meeting , as
nobody has disagreed to that.</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">2. There is a strong advocacy, for a process to
include e-voting in the Region, but the timing is short.
Therefore we need to commence the plan of creating an enabling
atmosphere to integrate e-voting.</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">3. We need to ratify the extended period for a
co-chair tentatively for 12months. Which he has spent a month
or so already.</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">4. Ensure we have an acceptable e-voting system
ready for the next date of election.</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">5. Let agreed clearly on this simple issue and
prepare for the coming meeting.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Simply</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Daniel</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jul 19, 2020 11:20 PM, "Fernando
Frediani" <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div class="">I have read this message and several questions come
to mind as for example:</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">- What basis was used to say "it was
overwhelmingly" rejected ?</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">- Who actuallty represents the "current"
community to state it was "totally rejected" ?</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">- Whats basis was used to say that it
would not work in the region if that works in several
other places and RIRs including, with auditable systems
?</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">- Whats basis is used to say rhe community
that voted for the current Co-Chair in Kampla has the
same confidence in him and that he would win ? It seems
more a personal wish than anything based on fact or
logic.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">- Even in order to extend the current
Co-Chair term the PDP MUST be followed and there are no
other ways written there other than another vote.
Otherwise how can this be done ?</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Fernando</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 19 Jul 2020,
18:08 Emem William, <<a href="mailto:dwizard65@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">dwizard65@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Dear All, </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I can recollect that a similar
proposal was proposed as a policy and it was
overwhelmingly rejected in Angola. The current
community totally rejected the policy no one
except the authors supported the idea because we
know it can't work in this region. Using online
voting now would be like passing the policy
using the backdoor. Am sure Jordie would like
this idea and hence his enthusiasm. However my
candid opinion is that we can't do this. The
most appropriate way forward is to allow the Co
chair who has been doing a fantastic job to
continue for another 12 months or till the next
face to face meeting. The community that voted
him in Kampala still have confidence in him. In
any case even with an online election he would
still likely win but I don't want polices to be
passed through the back door. Therefore I think
the most appropriate way for this has been
suggested as an extension for the co-chair who's
seat would have been contested.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Cheers.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" class="">Emem E.
William<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
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