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    <p>Hi Owen. Sorry I don't really read the 3.6 the same way as you.
      3.6 in my view wasn't thought for situation like this. It's being
      glued for the occasion that's not the case. 3.6 is about how the
      proposals are conducted, reviewed and passed within this forum in
      a exceptional situation (pretty much where we are). All points
      mentioned there have to do with proposals. We are not discussing
      or advancing a proposal right now.<br>
    </p>
    <p>What CAN actually be done within 3.6 is someone to properly
      present a proposal to amend the PDP and fix the issues we are
      discussing here and then have this proposal treated under 3.6
      (with no less than 4 weeks including the Last Call - which
      coincides with your point number 3 below).</p>
    <p>In my opinion proposal AFPUB-2019-GEN-007-DRAFT01 is ready for
      it, but I guess that may not reach consensus. So a much shorter
      proposal with just the essential we need to resolve this situation
      is the way to go under 3.6. Would that match with what you are
      trying to put ?<br>
    </p>
    <p>Fernando<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20/07/2020 21:52, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:9418E82A-1159-498D-ABEB-6AE4CC3DAD8E@delong.com">
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        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:00 AM, Fernando Frediani
            <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class=""
              moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20/07/2020 13:39, Owen
                DeLong wrote:<br class="">
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite"
                cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
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                  This is an absurd claim. The standard (as you mention
                  below) is a “raise of hands” vote. This mechanism even
                  in person does not allow people to verify that their
                  vote was cast correctly, nor is it fully auditable
                  (indeed, it has no audit trail and is not at all
                  audible).</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Placing more stringent requirements than
                  exist on the current system as an acceptance criteria
                  for a system deployed urgently in a time of crisis
                  makes little sense to me.</div>
              </blockquote>
              You are not making the things easier given the
              circumstances and all has been been discussed here.<br
                class="">
              What is being said is analogous to raise of hand and is
              also a indisputable way to eliminate most possible fraud
              that have been pointed.<br class="">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        It is not my goal to make things easier for you or even
        necessarily easier in general.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>It is my goal to achieve the best possible outcome through a
        mechanism that comes as close to applying the PDP rules as
        possible.</div>
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <blockquote type="cite"
                cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
                class="">
                <div class="">
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <p class="">4 - In order to either choose
                          another Co-Chair or to extend the current one
                          term there must be a vote with raise of hands.
                          There is no other way out of the PDP this can
                          be done.<br class="">
                        </p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  This statement ignores CPM section 3.6:</div>
                <blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none;
                  padding: 0px;" class="">
                  <div class="">
                    <h3 style="box-sizing: border-box; font-family:
                      "Open Sans", sans-serif; font-weight:
                      normal; line-height: 1.1; color: rgb(117, 117,
                      117); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px;
                      font-size: 24px; caret-color: rgb(117, 117, 117);"
                      class="">3.6  Varying the Process</h3>
                  </div>
                  <div class="">
                    <p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px
                      5px; caret-color: rgb(117, 117, 117); color:
                      rgb(117, 117, 117); font-family: Roboto,
                      sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="">The process
                      outlined in this document may vary in the case of
                      an emergency. Variance is for use when a one-time
                      waiving of some provision of this document is
                      required.</p>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div class="">
                  <ol style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px;
                    margin-bottom: 10px; caret-color: rgb(117, 117,
                    117); color: rgb(117, 117, 117); font-family:
                    Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class="">
                    <ol class="">
                      <li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">The
                        decision to vary the process is taken by a
                        Working Group Chair.</li>
                      <li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">There
                        must be an explanation about why the variance is
                        needed.</li>
                      <li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">The
                        review period, including the Last Call, shall
                        not be less than four weeks.</li>
                      <li style="box-sizing: border-box;" class="">If
                        there is consensus, the policy is approved and
                        it must be presented at the next Public Policy
                        Meeting.</li>
                    </ol>
                  </ol>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  Clearly this is the kind of exceptional circumstance
                  in which some variance could be justified.</div>
              </blockquote>
              Sorry I don't see 3.6 applying to this situation on *any*
              of points mentioned. This section is about how the
              policies discussion, review, last call, etc work  1) As I
              understand this decision is not up to the Chairs to take
              2)Yes, we are working on the explanation, but who will
              give it ? Normally is whoever take the decision. 3)
              Nothing to do with elections 4) Nothing to do with the
              current scenario. There is no proper policy under
              discussion to be approved, only a discussion of what to do
              about the next elections.<br class="">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        It applies to all of the CPM ("The process outlined in this
        document may vary…”).</div>
      <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">        </span>1.
        If not the co-chairs, then who?</div>
      <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">        </span>2.
        I think the explanation is well understood… “Because in person
        meeting during the COVID crisis is impossible.”</div>
      <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">        </span>3.
        I’m not so sure about this. Whatever election process we decide
        on should be put to a final community comment</div>
      <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">                </span>period
        of some form. I see no reason that should be less than 4 weeks.</div>
      <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">        </span>4.
        So you’re saying that the determination of how to (or whether
        to) conduct co-chair elections should be made</div>
      <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">                </span>by
        some other method than community consensus and should not be
        considered policy at least for this meeting?</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">                </span>How
        does that work?</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <blockquote type="cite"
                cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
                class="">
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">I still say that a (virtual) raising of
                  hands using the mechanisms available in nearly every
                  conferencing system capable of supporting</div>
                <div class="">this meeting has the following advantages:</div>
                <div class="">q<br class="">
                </div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>1.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>Only
                  meeting attendees may vote.</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>2.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>Botting
                  your meeting attendance would be reasonably difficult,
                  so it would be difficult for a person to stuff the
                  ballot box.</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>3.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>It
                  does meet the literal requirements of the existing
                  PDP.</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>4.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>If
                  we place reasonable bounds on meeting registration, we
                  can avoid the so-called “sleeper cell” effect that
                  some have</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">           </span>put
                  forth as a concern. (Personally, I think this is less
                  likely in a virtual meeting anyway).</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>5.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>If
                  we place reasonable bounds on meeting registration, we
                  also manage to prevent (2) from being a concern.</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>6.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>By
                  “reasonable bounds”, I mean pick a date certain in the
                  past by which one must have been subscribed to RPD.</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">           </span>Each
                  email subscribed to RPD is entitled to one
                  corresponding meeting registration if they choose to.
                  No subscribed</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">           </span>email,
                  no registration for the meeting.</div>
              </blockquote>
              I quiet like this idea, and that is exactly which is under
              discussion in one of the policies that should advance, but
              this is not backed in any part of PDP as far as I know as
              the moment. Who will determine what date is this ?<br
                class="">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        This would most certainly be a variation of the PDP to meet the
        emergency as it exists which would be permitted under 3.6, so,
        yes,</div>
      <div>my argument here depends on my argument above which you have
        claimed you are not buying. However, hopefully with my
        expansions on</div>
      <div>the topic above, I can perhaps convince you to change your
        mind and recognize that without something like that, we
        literally box</div>
      <div>ourselves into a situation with no way forward until such
        time as we can arrange an in-person meeting. Personally, I think
        that’s</div>
      <div>far from the best outcome.</div>
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <blockquote type="cite"
                cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
                class="">
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">   </span>7.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">  </span>My
                  suggestions for the date certain would be the first
                  day of the originally scheduled in person AIS 2020
                  (May 31) or</div>
                <div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">           </span>the
                  originally scheduled first day of the public policy
                  meeting (June 8 IIRC).</div>
              </blockquote>
              <p class="">This would make sense if there was basis for
                it, but currently there is AFAIK.</p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        The basis for it is 3.6. Read the CPM carefully read 3.6. It’s
        not rocket science. The CPM describes all of the policies, the
        PDP, and the co-chair election process within the one document.
        Section 3.6 provides for variance of the process[sic] should be
        processes within</div>
      <div>the document. That includes the co-chair election process
        unless you can show me why it does not.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>Owen</div>
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">
              <p class="">Fernando<br class="">
              </p>
              <blockquote type="cite"
                cite="mid:CE966FE8-5868-492C-91B0-B1A6B36CE4BA@delong.com"
                class="">
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">If anyone has a reason they don’t think
                  this is viable, please express it. So far, I’ve seen
                  lots of calls for other solutions, but this</div>
                <div class="">seems to be the approach with the fewest
                  drawbacks and which can easily be implemented in time.</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Owen</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <div class=""> <br
                            class="webkit-block-placeholder">
                        </div>
                        <p class="">Regards<br class="">
                          Fernando</p>
                        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20/07/2020
                          03:06, Daniel Yakmut wrote:<br class="">
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAB3X6meTt=Pw8az5fmYeO6vaSiNOLL8pkG91YuBemSAjFWiwOw@mail.gmail.com"
                          class="">
                          <meta http-equiv="content-type"
                            content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
                          <div dir="auto" class="">Dear All,
                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">We arrive at the
                              airport and I will be turning the simple
                              matter placed on the table into a circus.
                              The simple matter was:</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">1. We will have AIS
                              2020 online and in September.</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">2. A Co-chair's
                               tenure has already ended. So an
                              electronic election is being proposed as
                              part of the AIS 2020 Agenda. The question
                              is, is this possible?</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">3. It is a fact
                              that the Co-chair is currently serving
                              within an extended period. </div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">4. We now agree
                              that the introduction of e-voting is
                              inevitable, as demonstrated by the
                              pandemic.</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">However it is clear
                              that</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">1. We are going to
                              have an online meeting , as nobody has
                              disagreed to that.</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">2. There is a
                              strong advocacy, for a process to include
                              e-voting in the Region, but the timing is
                              short. Therefore we need to commence the
                              plan of creating an enabling atmosphere to
                              integrate e-voting.</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">3. We need to
                              ratify the extended period for a co-chair
                              tentatively for 12months. Which he has
                              spent a month or so already.</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">4. Ensure we have
                              an acceptable e-voting system ready for
                              the next date of election.</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">5. Let agreed
                              clearly on this simple issue and prepare
                              for the coming meeting.</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">Simply</div>
                            <div dir="auto" class="">Daniel</div>
                          </div>
                          <div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
                            <div class="gmail_quote">On Jul 19, 2020
                              11:20 PM, "Fernando Frediani" <<a
                                href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
                                moz-do-not-send="true" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
                              wrote:<br type="attribution" class="">
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                                #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                <div dir="auto" class="">
                                  <div class="">I have read this message
                                    and several questions come to mind
                                    as for example:</div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class="">- What basis
                                    was used to say "it was
                                    overwhelmingly" rejected ?</div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class="">- Who
                                    actuallty represents the "current"
                                    community to state it was "totally
                                    rejected" ?</div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class="">- Whats basis
                                    was used to say that it would not
                                    work in the region if that works in
                                    several other places and RIRs
                                    including, with auditable systems ?</div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class="">- Whats basis
                                    is used to say rhe community that
                                    voted for the current Co-Chair in
                                    Kampla has the same confidence in
                                    him and that he would win ? It seems
                                    more a personal wish than anything
                                    based on fact or logic.</div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class="">- Even in
                                    order to extend the current Co-Chair
                                    term the PDP MUST be followed and
                                    there are no other ways written
                                    there other than another vote.
                                    Otherwise how can this be done ?</div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class="">Fernando</div>
                                  <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                                    <br class="">
                                    <div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
                                      <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
                                        Sun, 19 Jul 2020, 18:08 Emem
                                        William, <<a
                                          href="mailto:dwizard65@gmail.com"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="">dwizard65@gmail.com</a>>
                                        wrote:<br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                        style="margin:0 0 0
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                                        <div dir="auto" class="">
                                          <div dir="auto" class="">Dear
                                            All, </div>
                                          <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                              class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div dir="auto" class="">I
                                            can  recollect that a
                                            similar proposal was
                                            proposed as a policy and it
                                            was overwhelmingly rejected
                                            in Angola. The current
                                            community totally rejected
                                            the policy no one except the
                                            authors supported the idea
                                            because we know it can't
                                            work in this region. Using
                                            online voting now would be
                                            like passing the policy
                                            using the backdoor. Am sure
                                            Jordie would like this idea
                                            and hence his enthusiasm.
                                            However my candid opinion is
                                            that we can't do this. The
                                            most appropriate way forward
                                            is to allow the Co chair who
                                            has been doing a fantastic
                                            job to continue for another
                                            12 months or till the next
                                            face to face meeting. The
                                            community that voted him in
                                            Kampala still have
                                            confidence in him. In any
                                            case even with an online
                                            election he would still
                                            likely win but I don't want
                                            polices to be passed through
                                            the back door. Therefore I
                                            think the most appropriate
                                            way for this has been
                                            suggested as an extension
                                            for the co-chair who's seat
                                            would have been contested.</div>
                                          <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                              class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div dir="auto" class="">Cheers.</div>
                                          <div dir="auto" class=""><br
                                              class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div
                                            data-smartmail="gmail_signature"
                                            class="">Emem E. William<br
                                              class="">
                                            <br class="">
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
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