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<p>Owen, I was under the impression this point had been overcome in
the previous discussion when several people mentioned they would
not agree to start if not after Phase 2, then the author adjusted
the text to that and made it simpler and clear given that
feedback.<br>
You seem to be concerned with a scenario that doesn't exist or
hardly can be supported with any evidence, at least NRO numbers
don't support that there is any signal of organizations that will
fall into what you are supposing. As said if there is *any* it is
not that they will not be able to work until Phase 2, but they can
still receive a fair amount of IP addresses (a /13) and keep
working until transfers are implemented, so a quiet reasonable
thing. Having to change the text for a possible non existent
scenario is unnecessary in my view.<br>
</p>
<p>LACNIC (which has a much faster pace than Africa in address
allocation) went Phase 2 and *just 2 years later* a Inter-RIR
transfer policy reached consensus and is not know of any major
issues that happened in the mean time. The case in Africa is even
better than LACNIC because this proposal is being discussed
upfront, so the gap will be much short to (again) a much shorter
pace.<br>
There fairness you asked is in the fact they can still receive a
/13 and the gap between consensus and Phase2 will be much shorter.<br>
</p>
<p>And last, a change in the way you propose will not have any
practical effects because will not be reciprocal to other RIRs
until it enters Phase 2 and AfriNic is able to do outgoing as
well, so why change the text for something unpractical ?<br>
</p>
<p>Therefore I don't really think is worth concern about this detail
now and why I consider the current text very appropriate.</p>
<p>Regards<br>
Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13/11/2019 00:49, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:993A71CE-AB96-423E-AD51-92B94464F858@delong.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 12, 2019, at 17:34 , Fernando Frediani
<<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/11/2019 22:04, Owen
DeLong wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:70C66D3E-7ECF-4CDE-A90A-D9B923F534B7@delong.com"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<clip>
<div class="">
<div class="">I do not feel that 5.7.5 is needed.
First, by the time this policy can be implemented,
it’s extraordinarily unlikely that we will not
already be in Phase 2. Second, even if that is not
the case, at this point, there is no reason to
prohibit organizations that wish to obtain resources
via the transfer market from doing so.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I think this is the most important part of the new
version, actually without that I would never be able to
support it and that was what many others also manifested
in the previous discussion.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
Let’s look at it rationally…</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>1.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>What’s
the downside to allowing transfers prior to phase 2 starting
given the other protections against anyone who does an outbound
transfer ever receiving free pool resources?</div>
<div>[If you can actually show a real one, them perhaps I’ll
support this, but absent that, I have to ask wtf?]</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>2.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Even
if this policy somehow miraculously gained consensus at the
December meeting, we’re still looking at June or later by the
time staff is able to implement it. Given the expectation of
hitting Phase 2 in December projected from October, even if
they’re off by 200%, that would still have Phase 2 hitting in
April, a full 2 months prior to earliest possible policy
implementation.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""> It is a simple, fair and clear rule: "when
Phase 2 starts", then there is no risk at all of it
starting earlier than it should.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
It’s a simple and clear rule. I don’t see the fairness.</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""> I do not believe there will be many if any
cases that will require such big transfers as I do not
believe any possible organization is able to justify more
than a /13 *at once*. In a very remote hypothesis this is
possible they can just receive the /13, work with it in
the meantime and wait until Phase 2 kicks in (pretty soon)
to be able to transfer whatever else. This is very
reasonable, and makes it more simple with a single rule
for all.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Yes, but what’s the point of putting language that will be
a no-op by the time it is implemented into policy? It’s just
cruft left over in the CPM that needs to get cleaned up later.
Why not leave it out? There’s no benefit to having it.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Can you show a single benefit to having it other than the
idea that it somehow mollifies people who don’t understand the
rest of the policy proposal as written and feel that this
provides some additional protection?</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Furthermore I don't think if changing that way
it would be reciprocal to other RIRs because it would
not be valid for outgoing from AfriNic. Therefore not
worth concern about this.<br class="">
The current text is fine in my view.<br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I’m not worried about the reciprocity issue here. You’re
right, it’s a no-op on that. However, it’s also a no-op in
general and I’m morally opposed to adding non-operative
language to the CPM just because it makes someone feel good.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Owen</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> </p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:70C66D3E-7ECF-4CDE-A90A-D9B923F534B7@delong.com"
class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<clip>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Owen</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 12, 2019, at 02:59 , JORDI
PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page:
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US">Hi Owen,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US">As I already did that in
other occasions for previous proposals,
here is it.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<ol style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top:
0cm;" class="" type="1" start="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin:
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US">Diff among v1 and v2 of
this proposal:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><a
href="https://www.diffchecker.com/2LOOCZgm"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline;" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.diffchecker.com/2LOOCZgm</a><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<ol style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top:
0cm;" class="" type="1" start="2">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin:
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US">Diff among actual policy
text and this proposal (v2)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><a
href="https://www.diffchecker.com/471nF1uX"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline;" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.diffchecker.com/471nF1uX</a><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US">I will do the same later
with other updated proposals.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US">Note that I’m already
working in a v3, considering your
inputs, as per the previous discussion
in the list. Just holding it in case
there are further comments.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US">Jordi<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt
35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">El
12/11/19 4:00, "Owen DeLong" <<a
href="mailto:owen@delong.com"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline;" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">owen@delong.com</a>>
escribió:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">I don’t know about
anyone else, but I would find it very
helpful if these announcements included a
redline or other diff format showing the
difference between the prior version of the
proposal and the current one.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">Owen<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt
35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br
class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""
type="cite">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt
35.4pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">On Nov 11, 2019, at 15:04 ,
Moses Serugo <<a
href="mailto:moses.serugo@gmail.com"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">moses.serugo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt
35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class="">Hello PDWG Members,</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color:
rgb(0, 0, 153);" class=""> </span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class="">This is to
notify you that the authors
of the policy proposal named<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:
12pt; color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class="">"IPv4
Inter-RIR Resource Transfers
(Comprehensive Scope)</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class="">" have
submitted an updated version
(Draft version 2 |<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class="">AFPUB-2019-IPv4-002-DRAFT02)
and now seek your comments
and feedback.</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class="">The proposal
contents are published at<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="color: rgb(0,
0, 153);" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class=""><a
href="https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-ipv4-002-d2#proposal"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-ipv4-002-d2#proposal</a></span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class="">Please take some
time to go through the
proposal contents and
provide your feedback.</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color:
rgb(0, 0, 153);" class=""> </span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class="">Thank you.</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color:
rgb(0, 0, 153);" class=""> </span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm
0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"
class="">PDWG Co-chairs</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt
35.4pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">_______________________________________________<br
class="">
RPD mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br
class="">
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list <a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">**********************************************</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">IPv4 is
over</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</pre>
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_______________________________________________<br class="">
RPD mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br class="">
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