<div dir="auto">What or who do we define as a newcomer?<div dir="auto">1. Is it the person that boarded a plane and arrives at afrinic meeting for the first time.</div><div dir="auto">2. A local who turned up at an afrinic meeting that is taking place in his community.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I will assume that we are not thinking of denying someone who travel several hundred miles to afrinic meeting for the first time the opportunity to participate in an activity that is part of the experience of the meeting.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think we should critically look at bringing the newcomers up to speed and ensure they participate without any form of discrimination. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">So I stand against any form of isolation. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 10:59 PM Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Owen, you seem the only one that objects to fix the current issue
which most, at least form those who put up their view recognized
needs change.<br>
The 'beautiful and utopic scenarios' you try to paint don't exist
in practice and will never exist. Things must be practical and
efficient and people clearly are being able to see the issue that
needs improvement and fix. You even deny Board arbitration which
is a quiet common thing on exception situations. I wonder who else
would be able to do that in a simple and efficiently manner that
could not be captured.<br>
Trying to keep the current scenario is really a waste of time and
a invitation to those who diligently put up their efforts in this
process to go away.</p>
<p>Let's be practical. Perhaps there are adjustments to be made in
the text, but maintaining the same scenario that allows anyone
that shows up in a meeting in a 'ad-hoc' fashion and that has
never participate before to decide just because it *may eventually
happen that one or a few of them are able to properly do* is not
reasonable at all with all others.<br>
</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<div>On 10/11/2019 18:32, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Nov 10, 2019, at 05:43 , Chevalier du Borg
<<a href="mailto:virtual.borg@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">virtual.borg@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 9 nov. 2019
à 23:36, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">owen@delong.com</a>> a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Nov 9, 2019, at 01:07 , Ahile
shagba francis <<a href="mailto:ahilefranc@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ahilefranc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="auto">The last elections in
Kampala witnessed many weird practices. It
was glaring that the process lacks so much
to term it credible.
<div dir="auto"> Some are forced to
agree with the accusations of the person
who sent some harsh words regards the
manner in which students and locals where
bought solely for the purpose of elections
by some big wings who play the modern day
slavery role.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
I take issue with this characterization.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bringing students and local IT
professionals to the AfriNIC meeting is, IMHO, a
laudable and useful way to expand our community</div>
<div>and improve participation. I don’t
know of anyone who was brought solely for the
purpose of elections. All of the fellowships I am</div>
<div>aware of provided for attendance at
the full meeting.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While some new comer were there for the
meeting. It was clear a lot had come just to vote.
they were all sit in same place. they allmost all vote
for the same person and they all shout in unity when
that person won.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
Again, I think you are mistaken.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know several of the people who were sitting together in
that block. Many of them were invited to participate by the
candidate in question, but at least each of the ones I knew did
attend multiple days of the meeting, not only</div>
<div>the PDWG session where the election for co-chair was held.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It’s not surprising that a group of people who know each
other and live in the same community and work together in the
same industry or attend the same school would want to sit
together.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It’s not surprising that they would support the candidate
that is best known to them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How is that not legitimate?</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>That must not be allow to continue.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
What, exactly is it that you feel was wrong here?</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>I wish AfriNIC to BAN all newcommer from
any kind of vote. They should listen, learn and
participate in debate</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
Many of them did participate in the debate making meaningful
comments on multiple policy proposals.</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>I wish AfriNIC to BAN all people who have
not been register on PPML for at least 2 month before
meeting</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
Why is participation in an ARIN list required for participation
in an AfriNIC meeting?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Or did you mean to refer to RPD list?</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I find it interesting that the call
here is about the election in Kampala while nobody
mentions what happened in Dakar.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In Dakar, there were literally
busloads of local people, many of whom had no
relationship to IT.</div>
<div>They showed up for lunch and the
Co-Chair election and then departed never to be
seen or heard from in the community again.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>They show up for lunch (quite another
problem for NIC to fix), they was no patter of all of
them voting for one candidate. In fact many of them
leave after lunch so you are dishonest to say they
came for co-chair election.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
I disagree… There was most definitely a pattern of them voting
for the same candidate. The same pattern of sitting together and
cheering that you object to above was also present in Dakar.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In Kampala, there were a large number
of local IT students and members of the IT
profession who showed up for multiple days</div>
<div>of the meeting in part because they
were sponsored through fellowships.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A tainted fellowship of questionable goal
for this community. </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
Tainted by what?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Questionable in what way?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Because you didn’t like the outcome or because you have some
actual substantive objection beyond that?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you have a substantive objection, make it. Present
evidence.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Is there some reason these members of
the IT community should be marginalized simply
because it is their first meeting?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- any one who come just for lunch</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
They didn’t.</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>- any group who come for first time and
vote on the same issue and same person is pervsesion
of democracy and community trust</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
Everyone who votes votes on the same issue. That’s the nature of
a vote. As such, it is difficult to understand your concern
here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can also tell you that not every fellow who came voted for
the same person. Yes, there was a visible contingency of fellows
that did vote for this particular candidate, but you have no
idea of the total number of fellows, nor do you know who the
ones that were not part of that contingency voted for.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To the best of my knowledge, none of the fellows was
instructed in how to vote. I know there are accusations of that
and if those accusations can be proven, then there is an actual
perversion of democracy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, disenfranchising voters simply because they are at
their first meeting is also a perversion of democracy.</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>same thing with people who don't live in
Africa, don't have any business here constantly force
their way on the community through very long post and
policy that most african who are in the community for
along time don't agree is benefit to the continent.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
An interesting perspective. If you truly feel this is the case,
then propose rules which ban participation by those people. The
current rules allow participation by anyone who chooses to
participate and that is true of every RIR.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have a history of African participation in the ARIN region
as well. Nobody has ever suggested that their participation was
invalid even when much of the community may have disagreed with
their positions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If the majority of the community does not want something, it
will not reach consensus, so there is no possibility for “people
who don’t live in Africa” to force their way on the community
unless the majority of the community agrees with them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Are they in some way less qualified
than other members attending their first meeting?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>yes. in the same way that you should not
allow a person who is not American to vote in US
election. These people most of them just corrupt the
process. Few of them go on to register to mailing
list. Few of them go on to post anything intelligent
apart from +1 +10</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
I am confused… These people were African. Many of them were from
Uganda. Many of them were from other parts of Africa. To the
best of my knowledge, registration on the mailing list was a
condition of the fellowships, so I don’t believe your claim
there is valid, either. In general, few of the people signed up
for the mailing list post anything intelligent.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Further, the definition of “intelligent” in this context is
very subjective.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>One of those fellows is now a PDP
co-chair.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Do we feel that the current co-chairs
are doing a bad job? Do we feel that they have
misrepresented the community in some way?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Newcomwers ought
to have some knowledge about what
AFRINIC in its entirety entails. So you
can make decisions bore from conscience
and sincere progress. </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
How does a newcomer gain that knowledge without
attending a meeting and observing the process
first hand?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Join mailing list before the meeting</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
This was done.</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>Register, attend the meeting and listen</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
This was also done.</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>But you know that not the problem. The
problem is is when all newcomer, sit in same spot,
vote for same person and oppose same proposal or
support same proposal (whether francophone or
anglophone) ... it a sign that the PDP has been
hijack by botmaster.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
I can absolutely guarantee you that this did not happen.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, many newcomers sat in the same spot and voted for the
same person. Some subset of that group also expressed similar
opinions on some of the proposals.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There were many other newcomers of which you are apparently
unaware that did not participate in any of the behavior you are
expressing as problematic.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you believe that the PDP has been hijacked by a bot
master, then please identify this bot master and the bots in
question.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If the PDP has been taken over by a bot master, then there
would not be open debate or opposition. There would be easy
consensus around each policy desired</div>
<div>by said bot master.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I haven’t seen easy consensus around anything at all
controversial in AfriNIC in quite some time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Are you arguing that the co-chairs
elected in Kampala are unqualified or a poor
choice for the community? Are you arguing that the
election had a bad outcome?</div>
<div>If so, please offer some evidence to
support this position.</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Many who are
pushing for certain policies have failed
to sit back and search themselves if
they really are for the good of the RIR
of they are just out chasing clout. </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
Blanket accusations of malfeasance such as this
are hollow and useless. If you have examples of
such malfeasance, you don’t have to name names,
but at least</div>
<div>provide specific citations. Provide
actual content or quotations or references to
points on the video record of the meeting where
such malfeasance is demonstrated.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Like a non-African who does not live in
Africa. Does not own a business in Africa try to shove
policy down in AfriNIC?</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don’t think this is responsive to the statement above.
Does this mean you have no examples or evidence to present?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Owen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
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