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--></style></head><body lang=ES link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I’m going to try to summarize here my response to Ahile, Owen and Fernando.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>The motivation of the authors of this proposal to work on it has been that the last elections (note not just Kampala), exposed a lot of wasted time, a not sufficient clear procedure, as neutral as possible, insensible to where the meeting is being held (which means always extra participation from locals), and thus a less discriminatory, allowing a greater diversity, which I’m sure we all believe is the best for the community.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Note also that this comes from similar experiences in other regions. I want to clearly said that we had also similar negative experiences in other foras or RIRs. I’m convinced we all agree that any electoral process is always very complex, but we should aim for avoiding disputes, having it clean, facilitating diversity and wasting time. <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>In every RIR there are different proccesses, and some of the text being used in this proposal is also being discussed in LACNIC (where we have been doing the elections electronically previous to the meeting for long time, and not on-site), where we had similar problems, and for example, there nobody opposed to asking for 6 months of previous participation in the list (for both candidates and voters). Unless I’m missing anything, right now none of the RIRs is doing elections on-site.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The process we are proposing is *<b>more inclusive</b>* than the existing one. Doesn’t disqualify people that is not on-site, neither as candidate or voter. It just ask “you should have been here for some time”, as part of the qualification. Being a PDP chair is not an easy task. I will prefer to write 100 more new proposals that being a co-chair. I think in several regions there is a pre-cualification for certain experience. This is a perfect valid thing and this is not against the bottom-up process.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Bottom-up process is about participation. Everybody is able to participate, so please, join the list and start reading and expressing your views on all the proposals. Don’t expect to learn about the proposals “in the meeting” there is not sufficient time there for explaining every bit, the idea of the meeting is to have a discussion if the list discussion hasn’t been sufficient, in order to help the proposal to improve, and gain consensus.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>A perfect example of this, now that Owen metiong this, is that we have a co-chair that has participated in the meetings and the list during the previous year, if I recall correctly. He was not a newcommer, he got the recognizment of the community in a very short time, because he has been there!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I’m feeling that in all this email exchange most of you’re missing that the proposal is suggesting that the process is not done *<b>on-site</b>*. This means that nobody is disenfranchise during the meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Owen mention 3 months instead of 6, but then he adds at least on post to the RPD. If that post is a contribution and not just a “hello I’m new here”. I will be fine as well. Note however, that when we come into a “numbers discussion”, this can turn into useless … somebody will say 4 months and two posts, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Note also that we aren’t asking in this proposal for “expertise in number resources”, but for knowing a little bit about the PDP process. I think it is perfectly valid that people that have been in the list 6 months (because we have meetings every 6 months), has at least a better view on this process, because in that time we covered a full cycle of the PDP (this is actually our reason for the 6 months and not just 3).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Even if we only resolve at the end of this discussion that we should not do anymore on-site voting, I’m fine. We should waste our time.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 10/11/19 6:02, "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On Nov 9, 2019, at 19:17 , Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>Seems you are taking in consideration to some particular history of AfricNic to deny a concept.<br>It is quiet obvious if you let things loose you will put away the people who really make the things happen because they may be easily overruled by people who not necessarily are in touch with things. It's not because it worked one-off it can be a rule.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>But it’s worked consistently since the beginning of AfriNIC and there’s no such requirement in any RIR to the best of my knowledge.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>You say it is quite obvious, but if it is so obvious, then where is the persistent harm across many years of AfriNIC elections?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>Seems you make up a utopic scenario where everybody that exists have the means to decide and this may blow the whole process up as there are precedents for that, just because it *may happen* very occasionally someone that is new and is able to fully understand.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>The whole point of a multi-stakeholder bottom up process is inclusion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>This goes against inclusiveness and everything the process stands for.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>If I start to participate in other forums, even if I have a good knowledge of the topics and things I would humbly accept to wait my time to be able to decide alongside with the others who have helped to build things more than me.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Well, that’s your choice, and that’s the point… It’s _YOUR_ choice. You shouldn’t be disenfranchised because someone else thinks you haven’t been around long enough.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>Letting everybody that shows up to do that is to put away those who really do things and a high risk to mess up the process<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I think it’s time for us to agree to disagree on this matter. If you want to claim harm to the process, then show me an example, because the process has been working this way in multiple regions for many years.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>Fernando<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On 10/11/2019 00:05, Owen DeLong wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On Nov 9, 2019, at 12:03 , Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen, I don't think anyone is talking about the newcomers to participate in any PDP meeting and everybody welcomes it. The point, as you well described in part of the email is to be able to vote to on co-chair elections.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>It is very reasonable that only people that are committed and already involved into the process for a minimal time and know how things work should be able to decide. With that nobody is excluding new people to come and participate and in a next election, if they remain and contribute to the community to be able to choose as well.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I’m not entirely convinced of this. We have a cochair from the last election who was one such newcomer. Frankly, so far, he seems to be doing an excellent job in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>6 months is not a big thing for someone that is willing to commit to something and solves a huge problem which is the very well known of bringing non involved people just to count as a 'ad-hoc' vote and manipulate the process to something which certainly will not represent the will of the majority of those who really build the things. To be able to decide in group someone must be a stakeholder of the process and those who come one-off are not.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>But I’m also not convinced that 6 months actually gains us anything. Some of the worst decisions in AfriNIC history have come from co-chairs that were well steeped in AfriNIC policy development.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Unless and until you can show me that there has been some detrimental effect from newcomers being allowed to vote, I’m hesitant to accept the idea of disenfranchising them.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>Otherwise keeping the things as they are is a perfectly way to make the people who really are committed and work to build good policy to go away because the risk of the process to be manipulated will always be high.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I’m not convinced disenfranchising newcomers solves that problem.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I do not take the idea of disenfranchising community members lightly at all. If it is necessary, there needs to be strong evidence of a problem and even stronger evidence that disenfranchisement somehow solves the problem.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>So far, we have neither, while we do have at least one valid counter-example.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I would accept a less intrusive requirement such as requiring that they be subscribed to the RPD list for at least 3 months prior to the meeting and have made at least one post to RPD.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I would argue that lots of people who have been involved for quite some time don’t truly understand how things work, so your belief that attending a second meeting is a miracle cure for such ignorance doesn’t hold much water with me.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Anyone who uses IP number resources _IS_ a stakeholder in the process, whether they fully understand that fact or not. I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone who participated in the last co-chair election who does not fit that description.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I have not yet had time to review the full proposal in detail, but I will have many more comments on additional flaws when I do.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I am in opposition to the proposal as written while I do support the idea of producing better and more complete PDWG Co-Chair election procedures and documentation.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'>Fernando<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On 09/11/2019 16:32, Owen DeLong wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On Nov 9, 2019, at 01:07 , Ahile shagba francis <<a href="mailto:ahilefranc@gmail.com">ahilefranc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>The last elections in Kampala witnessed many weird practices. It was glaring that the process lacks so much to term it credible. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> Some are forced to agree with the accusations of the person who sent some harsh words regards the manner in which students and locals where bought solely for the purpose of elections by some big wings who play the modern day slavery role.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I take issue with this characterization.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Bringing students and local IT professionals to the AfriNIC meeting is, IMHO, a laudable and useful way to expand our community<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>and improve participation. I don’t know of anyone who was brought solely for the purpose of elections. All of the fellowships I am<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>aware of provided for attendance at the full meeting.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>The only elections which can be influenced by such attendees who are not representing bona fide AfriNIC members are the PDP<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>co-chair and the NRO NC/ASO AC representatives. (The NRO NC also stands as the ASO AC).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Here we are discussing the election of co-chairs, so the role of fellows in that election is a valid topic of discussion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I find it interesting that the call here is about the election in Kampala while nobody mentions what happened in Dakar.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>In Dakar, there were literally busloads of local people, many of whom had no relationship to IT.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>They showed up for lunch and the Co-Chair election and then departed never to be seen or heard from in the community again.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>In Kampala, there were a large number of local IT students and members of the IT profession who showed up for multiple days<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>of the meeting in part because they were sponsored through fellowships.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I can certainly understand criticism of what happened in Dakar, but I must ask about the criticism of Kampala…<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Is there some reason these members of the IT community should be marginalized simply because it is their first meeting?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Are they in some way less qualified than other members attending their first meeting?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>At least in the case of the fellows which I met and of which I am aware, they each received briefing materials about AfriNIC and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>the policy proposals under discussion. Said briefing materials have been previously reviewed on this list and were as neutral<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>and factual as they could be, modulo some minor mistakes which were admitted and which did not significantly prejudice any<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>policy (a couple of minor misquotes IIRC).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>One of those fellows is now a PDP co-chair.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Do we feel that the current co-chairs are doing a bad job? Do we feel that they have misrepresented the community in some way?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Newcomwers ought to have some knowledge about what AFRINIC in its entirety entails. So you can make decisions bore from conscience and sincere progress. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>How does a newcomer gain that knowledge without attending a meeting and observing the process first hand?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Are you arguing that the co-chairs elected in Kampala are unqualified or a poor choice for the community? Are you arguing that the election had a bad outcome?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>If so, please offer some evidence to support this position.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Many who are pushing for certain policies have failed to sit back and search themselves if they really are for the good of the RIR of they are just out chasing clout. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Blanket accusations of malfeasance such as this are hollow and useless. If you have examples of such malfeasance, you don’t have to name names, but at least<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>provide specific citations. Provide actual content or quotations or references to points on the video record of the meeting where such malfeasance is demonstrated.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>If such an accusation is to be leveled, then it should be leveled such that the accused have some ability to proffer a defense. In a case where it is impossible to know<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>not only who, but what, exactly, is being accused, there is no ability to offer any defense and the accusation can be neither proven nor disproven. It is hollow and<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>should be regarded as entirely fictitious in nature.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Whatever we try to fix here should be from a sincere motive of taking the RIR to greater heights. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>In this, at least, we can certainly agree. Let us focus on actual problems to be solved and not on vague and hollow accusations which cannot be meaningfully<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>addressed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Shalom<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Ahile Shagba Francis. <br>Developer | Branding |Graphics <br>Frankie-Code Solutions.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On Sat, Nov 9, 2019, 07:48 <<a href="mailto:rpd-request@afrinic.net">rpd-request@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Send RPD mailing list submissions to<br> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> <a href="mailto:rpd-request@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd-request@afrinic.net</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a href="mailto:rpd-owner@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd-owner@afrinic.net</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of RPD digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: new policy proposal: AFPUB-2019-GEN-003-DRAFT01: "Chairs<br> Elections Process" (Daniel Yakmut)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:46:59 +0100<br>From: Daniel Yakmut <<a href="mailto:yakmutd@googlemail.com" target="_blank">yakmutd@googlemail.com</a>><br>To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>Cc: "rpd >> AfriNIC Resource Policy" <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: [rpd] new policy proposal: AFPUB-2019-GEN-003-DRAFT01:<br> "Chairs Elections Process"<br>Message-ID:<br> <CAB3X6me1QCE3_yFZUjfJ+h3=<a href="mailto:7uWRjP9Xe6J-fqkZfG8oD0iwfA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">7uWRjP9Xe6J-fqkZfG8oD0iwfA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>A quick question is "are Co-Chair tied to Country?" I thought part of this<br>community is some form of universality, meaning as long as the person(s)<br>understand and are doing the job well, country specific should not matter.<br>Else we may be trading competency for representative.<br><br>Therefore, I will disagree with inserting that co-chairs cannot come from<br>the same country. Rather can we have other implicit ways that could<br>possibly ensure that co-chairs from the same country are not chairing at<br>the same time.<br><br>Simply,<br>Daniel<br><br>On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 7:35 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>wrote:<br><br>> Hi Fernando,<br>><br>><br>><br>> I see your point, which has been also expressed by Pascal, and after<br>> thinking again I believe I could agree with an alternative solution and<br>> simplification of that specific paragraph.<br>><br>><br>><br>> Note that I?m responding by myself, so my co-author should agree if both<br>> of you accept this alternative, as well as the rest of the community, so<br>> take it as tentative wording:<br>><br>><br>><br>> ?Both chairs can?t be from the same country, except in exceptional<br>> situations where there are no other acceptable candidates.?<br>><br>><br>><br>> Instead of the actual:<br>><br>><br>><br>> ?Both chairs can?t be from the same country, except in exceptional<br>> situations where there are no other acceptable candidates, in which case<br>> one of the chairs will cease in their position at the following election<br>> process (following year), either because their term has come to an end or<br>> by agreement among the two chairs, failing which the chair who has held the<br>> position the longest will automatically cease in their position.?<br>><br>><br>><br>> So, will you agree on this? others?<br>><br>><br>><br>> Regards,<br>><br>> Jordi<br>><br>> @jordipalet<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> El 8/11/19 16:49, "Fernando Frediani" <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> escribi?:<br>><br>><br>><br>> Hello<br>><br>> I have to agree that I am also not comfortable the way text is 3.3.1 with<br>> regards chair of the same country. While I agree they should not come form<br>> the same country as much as possible I recognized there are exceptions<br>> where they have to be and no one should be forced out if they became a<br>> chair already.<br>><br>> There are two situations where I believe 2 chairs from the same country<br>> may co-exist:<br>> 1) When there are no other acceptable candidates from other countries (eg:<br>> 1 single candidate form the same country as the current chair or all<br>> candidates from the same country of the chair)<br>> 2) When there is a vacant position that AfricNic Board has to fulfill<br>> temporarily.<br>><br>> With regards the traveling expenses mentioned I don't think they should be<br>> in the PDP. While I believe the RIR should always cover that given the<br>> importance of the role to the RIR community it is discretionary and up to<br>> them to decide that. Furthermore I don't think having this in the PDP can<br>> oblige the RIR to do anyway as it's a administrative decision.<br>><br>> I agree with section 3.3.2 in regards the minimum time to be able to<br>> participate in the election process. It brings a lot of value into the<br>> process and avoid big issues of non-related people influencing the process.<br>> This part for me is one of the most important of the proposal.<br>><br>> Fernando<br>><br>> On 08/11/2019 04:33, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:<br>><br>> Hi Pascal,<br>><br>><br>><br>> Thanks for your inputs, let me answer below, in-line.<br>><br>><br>><br>> Regards,<br>><br>> Jordi<br>><br>> @jordipalet<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> El 8/11/19 4:32, "Paschal Ochang" <<a href="mailto:pascosoft@gmail.com" target="_blank">pascosoft@gmail.com</a>> escribi?:<br>><br>><br>><br>> Hello this is a great proposal but I have some concerns about some of the<br>> newly adopted procedures.<br>> In section 3.3.1 I don't think it will be right for a chair who has held<br>> the position longest to vacate the position in a scenario where the<br>> cochairs originate from the same country in extreme scenarios. While we aim<br>> to select algorithms to minimize the possibility of a vacant seat at any<br>> point in time we should also try not to break the wheel of experience here.<br>> A longer serving cochair will be more conversant with the affairs of the<br>> PDWG in most cases so I think vacating his or her seat won't be ideal.<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> ? While I could agree here in your view, I think that there must be a<br>> balance in giving opportunity to new people. The text already gives the<br>> opportunity to the chairs to take a decision on that. Note also, that if<br>> the chair that has been longer time in the position hasn?t exceeded the two<br>> consecutive terms, he still can submit his candidacy for that election, so<br>> it is giving the voice to the community about that. On the other hand, we<br>> may have a longer time in the position chair that is not performing well<br>> (even if it has more experience) so the community has a way to not vote him<br>> again. It is a difficult balance. I will like to hear from you and others<br>> specific suggestions about this point.<br>><br>><br>><br>> Secondly while we aim to sanitize the motives for people contesting for<br>> cochair I don't think a little stipend for co-chairs will do any damage to<br>> the election process for me I think a per sitting allowance or stipend<br>> should be adopted if not already so.<br>><br>><br>><br>> ? AFRINIC (I believe) support the chairs in their traveling expenses to<br>> the meeting and from time to time to other RIR meetings. Is not that<br>> sufficient? Otherwise, what you will suggest? Should we have that (even for<br>> traveling expenses) in the PDP?<br>><br>><br>><br>> section 3.3.2 will disenfranchise voters. It's possible a deprived voter<br>> might not be active in the rpd but has been abreast with the happenings of<br>> the community. Therefore are we going to say we cannot allow that voter to<br>> cast his or her vote?. A deprived voter might be attending a PPM for the<br>> first time and will feel disenfranchised because I believe the presentation<br>> of the candidates is also an incentive to motivate or give voters an idea<br>> of their portfolio which I think is enough to orientate a newbie attendee<br>> if I may use that phrase .<br>><br>> Without elaborating or handling some of this concerns I think this<br>> proposal cannot be accepted as it is.<br>><br>><br>><br>> ? Note that I?m asking only for having been in the RPD list for 6 months.<br>> I?m not asking for demonstrating ?activity?. I my opinion this will fulfil<br>> the case you?re indicating in your first case.<br>><br>> ? Regarding a newcomer participating as voter, I?ve seen in many RIR<br>> meetings, including AFRINIC, a bunch (even hundreds) of local students,<br>> participating for the first time as guest. 99% of those participants will<br>> never participate again in AFRINIC, RPD, etc. Hundreds of them can vote for<br>> a specific candidate, without knowing at all nothing about the candidate or<br>> the PDP, for example, just because the candidate is local. Of course, in<br>> some cases that candidate can be a very valid one, however nothing ensures<br>> it and further this is a distortion of the process and very discriminatory<br>> towards the other candidates. For example, the other candidates can say<br>> ?I?ve organized a remote hub so the people can participate in a remote<br>> meeting room? (and get there hundreds of people that possibly will support<br>> that candidacy). I think those newcomers can perfectly understand, if they<br>> are interested in a continued AFRINIC participation, shy those rules are<br>> done and this specific point will not, for that, feel uncomfortable or<br>> decide not to continue participating because that, in the other way around<br>> ?next time I will be voting?. Is like when you need to have 18 years to<br>> vote. Reason for that is that you have some degree of ?adult thinking, life<br>> experience, public policy understanding, etc.?; here we are saying your<br>> experience to be able to participate is having been there for a few months.<br>><br>> ? Note that a participant in the meeting if really interested in AFRINIC,<br>> has been able to be in the RPD list much more time ahead the meeting, so<br>> nothing forbids him to actually participate.<br>><br>> ? Last but not least, the way that electronic voting is organized is<br>> based on using the RPD list as the electoral census. NOBODY will vote<br>> ?on-site?, the election is done BEFORE the meeting.<br>><br>> ? As said, happy to heard inputs on those specific points (and in general<br>> in all the proposal, of course!):<br>><br>><br>> On Wednesday, November 6, 2019, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>><br>> wrote:<br>><br>> Hello.<br>><br>> The text of the proposal is well written and I believe brings value to the<br>> election process with control mechanisms to ensure neutrality and balance<br>> of the chosen persons.<br>> One important point I highlight is that staff when implementing this make<br>> sure a trustable electronic system is used to ensure one vote by<br>> participant and to avoid fraud. I guess something about that will be<br>> contained in the impact analysis that will come.<br>><br>> Fernando<br>><br>> On 05/11/2019 11:04, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:<br>><br>> Hi all,<br>><br>><br>><br>> As with the previous ones, I'm attaching our proposal PDF, already submitted, so the community can start commenting in case the publication by AFRINIC is delayed.<br>><br>><br>><br>> Thanks in advance for any inputs!<br>><br>><br>><br>> Regards,<br>><br>> Jordi<br>><br>> @jordipalet<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> **********************************************<br>><br>> IPv4 is over<br>><br>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>><br>> <a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>><br>> The IPv6 Company<br>><br>><br>><br>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. 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If you are not the<br>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or<br>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including<br>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal<br>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this<br>> communication and delete it.<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> RPD mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/attachments/20191109/cfd4487e/attachment.html" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/attachments/20191109/cfd4487e/attachment.html</a>><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Subject: Digest Footer<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>RPD mailing list<br><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>End of RPD Digest, Vol 158, Issue 28<br>************************************<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________<br>RPD mailing list<br><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'>RPD mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________<br>RPD mailing list<br><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________<br>RPD mailing list<br><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br>_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list RPD@afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd <o:p></o:p></p></div><br>**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
http://www.theipv6company.com<br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br>
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