<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 10, 2019, at 05:43 , Chevalier du Borg <<a href="mailto:virtual.borg@gmail.com" class="">virtual.borg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 9 nov. 2019 à 23:36, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" class="">owen@delong.com</a>> a écrit :<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 9, 2019, at 01:07 , Ahile shagba francis <<a href="mailto:ahilefranc@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">ahilefranc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">The last elections in Kampala witnessed many weird practices. It was glaring that the process lacks so much to term it credible.<div dir="auto" class=""> Some are forced to agree with the accusations of the person who sent some harsh words regards the manner in which students and locals where bought solely for the purpose of elections by some big wings who play the modern day slavery role.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>I take issue with this characterization.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Bringing students and local IT professionals to the AfriNIC meeting is, IMHO, a laudable and useful way to expand our community</div><div class="">and improve participation. I don’t know of anyone who was brought solely for the purpose of elections. All of the fellowships I am</div><div class="">aware of provided for attendance at the full meeting.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">While some new comer were there for the meeting. It was clear a lot had come just to vote. they were all sit in same place. they allmost all vote for the same person and they all shout in unity when that person won.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Again, I think you are mistaken.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I know several of the people who were sitting together in that block. Many of them were invited to participate by the candidate in question, but at least each of the ones I knew did attend multiple days of the meeting, not only</div><div>the PDWG session where the election for co-chair was held.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>It’s not surprising that a group of people who know each other and live in the same community and work together in the same industry or attend the same school would want to sit together.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>It’s not surprising that they would support the candidate that is best known to them.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>How is that not legitimate?</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">That must not be allow to continue.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>What, exactly is it that you feel was wrong here?</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">I wish AfriNIC to BAN all newcommer from any kind of vote. They should listen, learn and participate in debate</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Many of them did participate in the debate making meaningful comments on multiple policy proposals.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">I wish AfriNIC to BAN all people who have not been register on PPML for at least 2 month before meeting</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Why is participation in an ARIN list required for participation in an AfriNIC meeting?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Or did you mean to refer to RPD list?</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I find it interesting that the call here is about the election in Kampala while nobody mentions what happened in Dakar.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In Dakar, there were literally busloads of local people, many of whom had no relationship to IT.</div><div class="">They showed up for lunch and the Co-Chair election and then departed never to be seen or heard from in the community again.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">They show up for lunch (quite another problem for NIC to fix), they was no patter of all of them voting for one candidate. In fact many of them leave after lunch so you are dishonest to say they came for co-chair election.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I disagree… There was most definitely a pattern of them voting for the same candidate. The same pattern of sitting together and cheering that you object to above was also present in Dakar.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In Kampala, there were a large number of local IT students and members of the IT profession who showed up for multiple days</div><div class="">of the meeting in part because they were sponsored through fellowships.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A tainted fellowship of questionable goal for this community. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Tainted by what?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Questionable in what way?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Because you didn’t like the outcome or because you have some actual substantive objection beyond that?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If you have a substantive objection, make it. Present evidence.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class="">Is there some reason these members of the IT community should be marginalized simply because it is their first meeting?</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Yes</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- any one who come just for lunch</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>They didn’t.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">- any group who come for first time and vote on the same issue and same person is pervsesion of democracy and community trust</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Everyone who votes votes on the same issue. That’s the nature of a vote. As such, it is difficult to understand your concern here.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I can also tell you that not every fellow who came voted for the same person. Yes, there was a visible contingency of fellows that did vote for this particular candidate, but you have no idea of the total number of fellows, nor do you know who the ones that were not part of that contingency voted for.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>To the best of my knowledge, none of the fellows was instructed in how to vote. I know there are accusations of that and if those accusations can be proven, then there is an actual perversion of democracy.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>However, disenfranchising voters simply because they are at their first meeting is also a perversion of democracy.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">same thing with people who don't live in Africa, don't have any business here constantly force their way on the community through very long post and policy that most african who are in the community for along time don't agree is benefit to the continent.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>An interesting perspective. If you truly feel this is the case, then propose rules which ban participation by those people. The current rules allow participation by anyone who chooses to participate and that is true of every RIR.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>We have a history of African participation in the ARIN region as well. Nobody has ever suggested that their participation was invalid even when much of the community may have disagreed with their positions.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If the majority of the community does not want something, it will not reach consensus, so there is no possibility for “people who don’t live in Africa” to force their way on the community unless the majority of the community agrees with them.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class="">Are they in some way less qualified than other members attending their first meeting?</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">yes. in the same way that you should not allow a person who is not American to vote in US election. These people most of them just corrupt the process. Few of them go on to register to mailing list. Few of them go on to post anything intelligent apart from +1 +10</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I am confused… These people were African. Many of them were from Uganda. Many of them were from other parts of Africa. To the best of my knowledge, registration on the mailing list was a condition of the fellowships, so I don’t believe your claim there is valid, either. In general, few of the people signed up for the mailing list post anything intelligent.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Further, the definition of “intelligent” in this context is very subjective.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class="">One of those fellows is now a PDP co-chair.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Do we feel that the current co-chairs are doing a bad job? Do we feel that they have misrepresented the community in some way?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Newcomwers ought to have some knowledge about what AFRINIC in its entirety entails. So you can make decisions bore from conscience and sincere progress. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>How does a newcomer gain that knowledge without attending a meeting and observing the process first hand?</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Join mailing list before the meeting</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>This was done.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">Register, attend the meeting and listen</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>This was also done.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">But you know that not the problem. The problem is is when all newcomer, sit in same spot, vote for same person and oppose same proposal or support same proposal (whether francophone or anglophone) ... it a sign that the PDP has been hijack by botmaster.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I can absolutely guarantee you that this did not happen.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Yes, many newcomers sat in the same spot and voted for the same person. Some subset of that group also expressed similar opinions on some of the proposals.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>There were many other newcomers of which you are apparently unaware that did not participate in any of the behavior you are expressing as problematic.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If you believe that the PDP has been hijacked by a bot master, then please identify this bot master and the bots in question.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If the PDP has been taken over by a bot master, then there would not be open debate or opposition. There would be easy consensus around each policy desired</div><div>by said bot master.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I haven’t seen easy consensus around anything at all controversial in AfriNIC in quite some time.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class="">Are you arguing that the co-chairs elected in Kampala are unqualified or a poor choice for the community? Are you arguing that the election had a bad outcome?</div><div class="">If so, please offer some evidence to support this position.</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Many who are pushing for certain policies have failed to sit back and search themselves if they really are for the good of the RIR of they are just out chasing clout. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Blanket accusations of malfeasance such as this are hollow and useless. If you have examples of such malfeasance, you don’t have to name names, but at least</div><div class="">provide specific citations. Provide actual content or quotations or references to points on the video record of the meeting where such malfeasance is demonstrated.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Like a non-African who does not live in Africa. Does not own a business in Africa try to shove policy down in AfriNIC?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I don’t think this is responsive to the statement above. Does this mean you have no examples or evidence to present?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""></div></div><br class=""></body></html>