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<p>This small number of very large organizations *who are able to
justify a /13 or more* are very unlikely to exist in Africa right
now. And as mentioned, even if it's the case this doesn't stop
them to keep working and serving their customers, it's not a
binary thing. They can still receive a /13 and keep working until
Phase 2 is triggered soon. If the few that may exist get - and are
able to justify a /13 at once - then Phase 2 will happen sooner
and they will be able to transfer whatever else they need
afterwards. I think that is very reasonable and works fine even
for these unlikely situations.<br>
</p>
<p>As mentioned the real numbers are the key to this and only staff
can provide them, but I don't think it's even necessary to bother
really. By looking at the latest NRO numbers from September that
doesn't seem the case.</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/11/2019 19:31, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:70CC727B-2E24-4CDE-BCFE-6DB4DC5465EE@delong.com">
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<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 10, 2019, at 14:01 , Fernando Frediani
<<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div class="">
<p class="">In practice this situation you describe is
very hard to happen, we cannot have things in place to
treat the very unlikely situation and that Phase 2 is
about to happen soon. Until there the vast majority or
organization (really the vast!) can get addresses from
AfriNic fine. <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>So the small number of large operators should just be
screwed over and enjoy it during that time?</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>The fact that the number of operators being screwed over
isn’t so much relevant when the number of users being screwed
over by proxy in that process is so large.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I’m not sufficiently familiar with the numbers in Africa
to present an accurate example, so I will draw from what I do
know.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>There are maybe 20 or so major providers in North America
and thousands of smaller ones. However, if you look at the
customer base served, you’ll see that those 20 or so major
providers probably represent close to 80% of the customers in
the area.</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> I hardly doubt one can justify anything more
than a /13 at once at the moment. Even in a remote
hypothesis that is possible the organization can receive
the /13 and work with that until transfers are allowed
as per Jordi's proposal that has been changed to start
with Phase 2 is triggered and that organization will be
able to transfer whatever else is needed. <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
Again, I don’t know the exact situation in Africa, but I can
easily see major expansions of the type being conducted by at
least a handful of providers in Africa, the most underserved
continent in the world, as requiring significantly more than a
/13.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Even if we assume residential only and only a /32 per
household, a /13 only serves roughly 512,000 households and
that’s if you can somehow make it nearly 100% efficient with no
addressing overhead (pretty unlikely in any real world
scenario).</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> One rule for all and much simpler.<br
class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Sure, but that rule should include the ability to transfer
if you choose. Obviously until AfriNIC hits Phase 2 (which
will happen soon as you mention), transfer would be
undesirable except for a small number of very large
organizations. However, once phase 2 comes into play, Likely,
we will hit phase 2 before this policy could be ratified at
this point anyway.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Once we hit phase 2, surely the scenario I describe becomes
not only probable, but common place. Trying to run an ISP of
any size by repeatedly requesting /22s and using them up is
absurd.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Owen</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> </p>
<p class="">Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/11/2019 18:51, Owen
DeLong wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D3DAE780-6328-4D52-B90C-A026A2FBB63C@delong.com"
class="">
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<div class="">On Nov 10, 2019, at 10:51 , Chevalier
du Borg <<a
href="mailto:virtual.borg@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">virtual.borg@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
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normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le dim. 10
nov. 2019 à 21:58, Jaco Kroon <<a
href="mailto:jaco@uls.co.za" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">jaco@uls.co.za</a>>
a écrit :<br class="">
</div>
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0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
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<div class="">
<p class="">Hi Chevalier.</p>
<p class="">Please allow me to be blunt.
That's short sighted.</p>
<p class="">We cannot transfer IN from other
regions unless we allow OUT.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Agree 100%, </div>
<div class="">Then you have no problems with
wait till all RIRs are equal run out before we
etablish full in and out transfer policy no?</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
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<div class="">
<p class="">All the other RIRs require
reciprocal *compatible* policies, which
means bi-directional transfers.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All RIRs don't all have equal
amount of free space. Big difference</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Depending on your definition here, 4 out of 5 have
exactly equal amount == 0.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_quote" style="caret-color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
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0px; text-decoration: none;">
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<div class="">
<p class="">Not allowing this means we can't
get resources in either.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">While AfriNIC have free space,
operators don't need it</div>
<div class="">When it run out, then we can allow
transfer policy</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
This isn’t entirely true.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It’s possible that an operator needs more
than they can get via current AfriNIC policies due to
“soft landing” limitations.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In such a case, said operator might prefer
to transfer a large amount of space in even if they
are paying for it on the market</div>
<div class="">rather than suffer with the small amount
of space they can get from AfriNIC due to the current
restrictions.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Is there a valid reason to preclude such a
transfer which, in reality, prolongs the AfriNIC free
pool to the benefit of other</div>
<div class="">organizations in Africa?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Owen</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
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