<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi<br>
This is not about a "hypothesis" but rather a quiet obvious and
logic thing to face. If Africa is the only region that still has
space left for its members and the rest of the world is seeking
for more IP space at lower cost it makes total sense for someone
to think in trying to get IP space form this region and send them
out to where is interesting to them if such proposal ever reach
consensus. Luckily I don't think it will be the case given the
number of oppositions raised and good points put against it.<br>
I think maybe you misunderstood some of what has been said and
discussed about this topic but I will try to answer some of the
points raised.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/08/2019 09:52, Andrew Alston
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:54EAD4CF-5B1D-40E0-A5E4-AE90AA072F6C@liquidtelecom.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0cm;
margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-left:36.0pt;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:1087069508;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-271681484 -1565232980 134807555 134807557 134807553 134807555 134807557 134807553 134807555 134807557;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-start-at:0;
mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:-;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi
Fernando, Let me ask you a few questions
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">You say AfriNIC still
has space – yet because of the soft landing – the size of
allocations for which a member can apply are extremely
smaller – especially once phase 2 kicks in – so – for
those that need more than this – where do you propose they
get it in the absence of this policy and the absence of
blocks for sale on the continent?</span></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
This is not true. In the current phase an African member who needs
IP space can just request, justify and will get the addresses
needed. Just when it enters phase 2 it will still be possible to get
a smaller block and at that point ISPs should have done their
homework to prioritize the addresses they already hold to transition
mechanisms rather than the way they were used to use in the past.
That is probably the reason this is called soft landing. Nobody can
be get by surprise.<br>
The most important is that as it stands now African members can get
IP space normally, they don't need to go to the market to get extra
space and it is a reason that reinforces that this proposal brings
zero benefit to the region.<br>
And the fact local members can still get the space they request,
this proposal should not pass, otherwise it will be a even higher
risk of fraud from external organizations at the current Phase of
IPv4 Exhaustion.<br>
(Source: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.afrinic.net/cpm-1-0#s5_4">https://www.afrinic.net/cpm-1-0#s5_4</a>)<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:54EAD4CF-5B1D-40E0-A5E4-AE90AA072F6C@liquidtelecom.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">How does the interest
in companies coming from outside to get space have
anything to do with the companies on the continent needing
to get space from outside? Please explain the correlation</span></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
I believe it is pretty much explained above, but lets go a bit more
into it. Companies from other regions may find cheaper to open a
"fake" or "virtual" company in Africa region to get addresses from
here and afterwards request a transfer to another RIR where the
address will really be used by them. The cost to buy a /24 or a /22
in the market makes the economics pretty worth for fraudsters to do
all necessary and bureaucratic work to open up and fake company in
Africa in the attempt to get these addresses.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:54EAD4CF-5B1D-40E0-A5E4-AE90AA072F6C@liquidtelecom.com">
<div class="WordSection1"><br>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Please explain how
having a transfer policy creates a more fraudulent
environment than people who take space off the continent
without updating the whois records and outside of the
auspicious of the RIR – and how you would ever prove that
is actually happening or not.</span><br>
</li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:54EAD4CF-5B1D-40E0-A5E4-AE90AA072F6C@liquidtelecom.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">You state that those
who transfer outside of the system should be sanctioned –
under what laws – please cite legal system and case law?
Last I checked there was no legal right to determine who
can use an integer on the internet</span></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
I think maybe you misunderstand either what I said or how the RIR
system works. When any organization becomes a RIR member and
receives a block, it is obliged to use it according to the current
rules, policies and behave according to the bylaws and the contract
they signed and agreed. There are cases where violations on the
policy or how the organization handle the IP space can get these
resources revoked from the organization. This works like that on any
RIR, not just in AfriNIC.<br>
Therefore if the current policies don't allow transfers "under the
table" (quiet obvious) and if such wrong attitude and violation of
the policy proved the resource holder doesn't have usage for that IP
space it can be revoked by the RIR. Simple as that !<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:54EAD4CF-5B1D-40E0-A5E4-AE90AA072F6C@liquidtelecom.com">
<div class="WordSection1"><br>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">With regards to “If
people run out of ipv4 and cant get more they can use
ipv6” – please explain how:<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">To do L2VPN circuits
in the absence of v4 and the absence of law end hardware
to do EVPN (and lack of support for EVPN-VPWS)<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">To do traffic
engineering when LDPv6 is dead to the point where it’s
unusable<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">To do L3VPN – which
currently in every vendor I’ve tested requires a V4
underlay</span></li>
</ul>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
I am not sure what you are trying to say with that.<br>
When an organization cannot get **any more address** (therefore only
after phase 2 is finished- a while from now) it means it still has
address to use or re-used for different and more efficient proposed
as transition mechanisms and until that happens the dependency on
IPv4 will be lower than it is now a days. Still on such scenarios
there are still alternatives as for example the mentioned in the
previous message to create a new policy to assign that last /12
revered under section 5.4.7.1 for new entrants and for IPv6
transition mechanisms as it exists in other RIRs.<br>
At that point maybe will be a better time to discuss a Inter-RIR
transfer policy again with much less risk that addresses will be
looted from the region.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:54EAD4CF-5B1D-40E0-A5E4-AE90AA072F6C@liquidtelecom.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
</li>
</ul>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The story about space
being taken out of Africa – Please explain why the world
would come pillaging Africa – when Africa has such a tiny
pool to start with – is it not far easier to go and buy
elsewhere in the world where unused blocks are common and
available</span></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Explained above about the economics that make it worth for
fraudster to come to the region, establish a company to get
addresses and then request the transfer out of the region. This is
not just a point of view, but pretty much an easy mathematics
question.</p>
<p>Said that, I am unable to see **any benefit** such proposal bring
to African region at the current scenario. Instead it only bring
risks (in the current Phase 1 even higher risks) and maybe the
only beneficiaries to this policy will be the IP transfer
companies and as far as I know it's not the mission of any RIR to
create policies to benefit such entities.</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:54EAD4CF-5B1D-40E0-A5E4-AE90AA072F6C@liquidtelecom.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">So
– once we get the answers to all of this – then – we can
potentially test your hypothesis as stated below – but until
then – I can’t see your logic
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Fernando Frediani
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, 16 August 2019 at 22:45<br>
<b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">"rpd@afrinic.net"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"><rpd@afrinic.net></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [rpd] New Policy Proposal Received -
"IPv4 Inter-RIR Legacy Resource Transfers (Comprehensive
Scope) AFPUB-2019-v4-002-DRAFT01"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello<br>
<br>
I want to position myself against this proposal for the many
reasons below.<br>
<br>
First I believe this does not bring any benefits to Africa
region <br>
allowing IP space to go out of the region and the same way
Africa is not <br>
in need yet to receive IP space from other regions as AfriNIC
still has <br>
availability for assignment to its members.<br>
<br>
Allowing inter-RIR transfers opens a wide door for fraud by <br>
organizations from other continents establishing a "virtual"
or "fake" <br>
offices in Africa, request some IP space and send them out of
the region <br>
afterwards.<br>
As AfriNIC is the only RIR who still has IP space available
for its <br>
members they should be protected and made sure they are
assigned only <br>
for real usage in the continent.<br>
It is pretty reasonable to think that the major interest will
be in <br>
companies outside Africa to come to the region, get IP space
and send it <br>
out than the contrary as AfriNIC members can get IP space
directly from <br>
the RIR. Why would members need it coming from other regions
then ?<br>
Also the 12 months period to request receive more IP space
from AfriNIC <br>
is quiet short in my view and make it worth in order to
increase fraud <br>
for those who wish to send these addresses out of the region.<br>
<br>
Even if it's expected AfriNIC's IP space to run out anytime
soon I still <br>
don't believe it is a reason to allow inter-RIR transfers. In
LACNIC <br>
region for example it exhausted IPv4 space for existing
members in 2017 <br>
and only very recently after 2 years the inter-RIR transfer
has reached <br>
consensus there, so I think this type of proposal should be
re-evaluated <br>
later on in the future when the scenario changes and when
there are real <br>
benefits for Africa region.<br>
<br>
The fact that transfers happen "under the table" I don't
consider this <br>
as a strong argument in favor of this change. Transfers under
the table <br>
are wrong and against the current policies therefore those who
may be <br>
doing it are the wrong ones, not the RIR for not allowing such
<br>
transfers. Any organization who received IP space from AfriNIC
must bind <br>
to the current policies and that includes not to do transfers
that are <br>
not allowed. If they insist on that, sanctions must be applied
against <br>
them, therefore there are mechanisms to properly fix this
issue, if it <br>
exists.<br>
<br>
The deployment of IPv6 is not impacted for AfricNIC members
for the <br>
current scenario as IPv4 is still available to be requested by
<br>
organizations for usage by transition mechanisms for example.
Even when <br>
that is not possible anymore there are still alternatives as
for <br>
example: 1) re-use of already hold IP space, 2) establishment
of a <br>
dedicated pool for specific usage with IPv6 transition
mechanisms or 3) <br>
prioritization of new entrants, the last two for example based
on the <br>
/12 reserved for future use as stated by section <a
href="http://5.4.7.1" moz-do-not-send="true">
5.4.7.1</a> of the <br>
AfriNIC's Exhaustion Policy<br>
<br>
I also second a comment made by another person in this
discussion here: <br>
"Allowing Inter-RIR transfers open room for resources meant to
be used <br>
in our region being traded fast due to economic reasons beyond
the real <br>
purpose they were meant for which is to help build the African
Internet".<br>
<br>
Therefore I don't think is good or necessary for Africa region
to allow <br>
inter-RIR transfers and put the RIR under the risk of its
address space <br>
to go out of the region unnecessarily and in an unneeded
scenario.<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>