<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I’d argue that it’s not even actually a “right to use”. This implies far more authority than RIRs actually have.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A registration of a particular set of numbers in an RIR is strictly speaking merely a guarantee of uniqueness</div><div class="">within a fairly constrained set of circumstances. Nothing more.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That is, a registration (theoretically) guarantees you uniqueness among the cooperating RIRs and those who</div><div class="">choose to cooperate in the RIR system. There’s no guarantee that someone else can’t configure your numbers</div><div class="">into their router and the RIRs have no authority over operators whatsoever.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The internet works reasonably well because the vast majority of operators agree to use the RIR system to</div><div class="">track uniqueness and so there is an implied “right to use” inherent in how operators interact with the RIR system,</div><div class="">but this is quite different from an actual “right to use” such as what one gets when one gets a radio station</div><div class="">license for a particular frequency (which is an actual right to use which may come with legal guarantees of</div><div class="">exclusivity and the possibility that people who infringe that right can be prosecuted under the law).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’m not aware of a case to date where party A using address X which is registered in the RIR system to</div><div class="">party B has been subject to criminal prosecution. There is no authority or capability that I know of for</div><div class="">the RIR(s) to take any sort of legal action against party A under the circumstance. As a general rule, this</div><div class="">is usually solved by contacting party A directly (hoping it is a simple mistake) or contacting their upstreams</div><div class="">if party A is unrepentant and it is a malicious act.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So in reality, when you “buy or sell address space”, really, you are merely buying or selling the right to</div><div class="">modify a unique registration of that address space within a set of cooperating databases.*</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">* The opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not necessarily reflect what a lawyer or</div><div class="">an RIR staffer might say. YMMV.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Secondly, regards to the comments about the bylaws and IP space – let me be clear – no one owns an integer – IP addresses are not assets. When you buy space, or sell space, you are not selling the space, you are charging someone for the process of transferring your right to use said numbers from you to them. Even then, I would argue that IP space and the usage thereof, is built on a trust based system. There is no legislation anywhere that I know of that allows anyone to lay claim to an integer – and if I’m wrong here, please, correct me, because as far as I know, there simply isn’t any case law on this (anywhere)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">As such, I don’t think we can bring arguments about assets into the IP space debate in the context of the bylaws. What you get as a member of an RIR – and what you are paying for – is a book keeping entry – to say “We believe that you have the right to use this number and we’re telling the world we think it should be you using it”, you are NOT paying for IP space, you are NOT paying to have sole claim to that IP space – you are paying for a journal entry – nothing more.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Thanks<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Andrew<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="en-KE" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nasir Faruk <<a href="mailto:nasirfaruk@gmail.com" class="">nasirfaruk@gmail.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, 29 June 2019 12:30<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hello Lee,<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Thanks for the well thought document. It has given considerable numbers needed to support this argument. I think one concern of Noah not addressed on the paper was the statistics of estimated IP address that may flow to AFRINIC when the policy take up. This is a number that would be somehow difficult to provide because it depends on the demand and supply chain.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 16.866666793823242px;">@Noah,<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 16.866666793823242px;">It is great the fact that you have admitted from Lee’s submission that Africa would need address space most. However, I can see that your stand is basically revolving around option A, which I called massive IPv6 deployment.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 16.866666793823242px;">Now, do you honestly think in Africa, the IPv6 deployment will be at the advanced stage before AFRINIC runs out of IPv4 spaces? What is your confidence level, give me some numbers!<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 16.866666793823242px;"> Then supporting one-direction transfers to only Afrinic to me would not be an option if other RIRs constrained to bi-directional flows. I dont think its wise to think other regions would change their policies to agree in one-direction transfers to Afrinic. Why would they do such?<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 16.866666793823242px;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 16.866666793823242px;">Best Regards.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 16.866666793823242px;">Faruk<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 16.866666793823242px;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">..............................................................................................</span><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: blue;" class="">............</span><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 36pt; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Arial Narrow", sans-serif; color: rgb(17, 17, 17);" class=""> </span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 3:59 AM <<a href="mailto:rpd-request@afrinic.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd-request@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Send RPD mailing list submissions to<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a><br class=""><br class="">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br class="">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rpd-request@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd-request@afrinic.net</a><br class=""><br class="">You can reach the person managing the list at<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rpd-owner@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd-owner@afrinic.net</a><br class=""><br class="">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br class="">than "Re: Contents of RPD digest..."<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Today's Topics:<br class=""><br class=""> 1. Re: inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs<br class=""> this policy now! (Ronald F. Guilmette)<br class=""> 2. Re: inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs<br class=""> this policy now! (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)<br class=""> 3. Re: inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs<br class=""> this policy now! (Ronald F. Guilmette)<br class=""> 4. Re: inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs<br class=""> this policy now! (Owen DeLong)<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br class=""><br class="">Message: 1<br class="">Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:09:16 -0700<br class="">From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <<a href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rfg@tristatelogic.com</a>><br class="">To: RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC<br class=""> needs this policy now!<br class="">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:80104.1561759756@segfault.tristatelogic.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">80104.1561759756@segfault.tristatelogic.com</a>><br class="">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br class=""><br class="">Ladies and gentlemen,<br class=""><br class="">I must begin by saying that I have two apologies to make to you all.<br class=""><br class="">The first, which I will need to post at a later time, is for my prior bad<br class="">behavior and unfairly imflamitory and prejuducial comments made on this<br class="">list some several years ago now. I was utterly wrong in my comments<br class="">and assumptions on that occasion, and have been meaning to come here and<br class="">post a lengthy apology every since... a task that, for one reason or<br class="">another, has gotten put in the back burner all this time.<br class=""><br class="">I don't even have time to go into my past mistakes or the reasons for them<br class="">just now, so that will have to wait, and I will post a more elaborate and<br class="">detailed apology for my past rude comments, hopefully in the very near<br class="">future. (Perhaps nobody even remembers or cares anymore what I bad<br class="">things I said here long ago, especially given what seems to have been<br class="">some dramatically woser behavior here recently. But it is a matter of<br class="">honor and I need to set the record straight and apologize properly,<br class="">but with an explanation.)<br class=""><br class="">My second apology is for coming in late to this discussion about the<br class="">pending Inter-RIR policy proposal(s). I am only now becoming aware of<br class="">this and I confess that I haven't had time to study or even think about<br class="">either the proposal or its implications or the stated postions of various<br class="">members on the proposal(s). Nontheless, I feel compelled to interject<br class="">myself just for the purpose of asking a few very naive questions...<br class=""><br class="">My starting point is Mr. Noah's recent posting on this topic...<br class=""><br class="">In message <<a href="mailto:CAEqgTWYPEMDHoVonhaNTTY5p6%2BShVsOymaVVrz4ShKf8oju%2BvQ@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">CAEqgTWYPEMDHoVonhaNTTY5p6+ShVsOymaVVrz4ShKf8oju+vQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br class="">Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">>So Jordi,<br class="">><br class="">>I still oppose this policy with strongest terms possible. I still believe<br class="">>IPv4 space will leave our region so fast when holders of Idle space who are<br class="">>yet to put them to good use as was allocated/assigned will trade them for<br class="">>some dollars rather than return them to AfriNIC. What we need is a policy<br class="">>that would discourage IPv4 from being transferred out of the region because<br class="">>of attractive prices of IPv$ but rather encourage more space coming into<br class="">>the region.<br class=""><br class="">For whatever it is worth, I personally am totally torn on this issue. On<br class="">the one hand, I would like to support my friend Jordi, and I do, certainly,<br class="">with respect to his anti-hijacking proposal, but perhaps not in the<br class="">case of Inter-RIR transfers. Also, as a longtime fighter against spam<br class="">on the Internet, it is an has been my belief that if all IPv4 space were<br class="">transfered, tomorrow, to whomever was the highest bidder, without any<br class="">regard for any other consideration (e.g. geography) then this alone would<br class="">put a major and perhaps crippling dent in the practice of so-called<br class="">"snowshoe" spamming... a practice that requires a LOT of very cheap IPv4<br class="">address space.<br class=""><br class="">That all having been said, I am also quite sympathetic to the postion<br class="">elaborated by Mr. Noah, and I could even be easily induced to begin<br class="">chanting "Afrinic for Africans!" (And I say this even though I myself<br class="">am not an African, either by residence or birth.)<br class=""><br class="">At the formation, Afrinic was endowed with a great deal of IPv4 address<br class="">space, and I believe that it was everyone's understanding, at that time,<br class="">that all these resources would be used for the good of Africans. Much<br class="">has transpired since that time, the Internet itself has changed dramatically,<br class="">and an open market for IPv4 address space has now evolved. But despite<br class="">all that, it can be, and perhaps should be argued that the fundamental<br class="">principal should still survive, and that Afrinic space should be used to<br class="">the benefit of Africans, and not just as an object of trade, i.e. to derive<br class="">a one-time cash transfer to current or historical holders of these resources.<br class=""><br class="">But I didn't come here to make speeches.<br class=""><br class="">I said above that I would have a few naive questions, and I do. Now I<br class="">finally come to those. Mostly my questions derive from the fundamental<br class="">charter of Afrinic, which is to say its bylaws:<br class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://afrinic.net/bylaws" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://afrinic.net/bylaws</a><br class=""><br class="">Here are my two questions:<br class=""><br class=""> *) Section 3.2 of the Bylaws reads as follows:<br class=""><br class=""> 3.2 The income and the capital of the Company shall be applied<br class=""> solely towards the promotion of the objects of the Company; and<br class=""> no part of the income or capital shall be paid or transferred,<br class=""> directly or indirectly, to the members, whether by way of dividend,<br class=""> capital distribution or bonus or otherwise.<br class=""><br class=""> I wonder if anyone has considered, or reconsidered the implications,<br class=""> legal and otherwise, of this (historical?) section of the bylaws,<br class=""> particularly now that IPv4 address blocks may be, and quite certainly<br class=""> are being treated, by major accounting firms, as part of the capital<br class=""> assets of the various companies, worldwide, i.e. all those that<br class=""> currently buy, sell, trade, and "own" them.<br class=""><br class=""> That's my question. Does Section 3.2 of the Bylaws prohibit Afrinic<br class=""> from "transferring" IP address blocks to any party AT ALL? (Remember,<br class=""> I did warn you all above that my questions would be naive!)<br class=""><br class=""> *) Section 6.1 of the Bylaws reds as follows:<br class=""><br class=""> 6.1 Membership shall be open to:<br class=""><br class=""> (i) any Person who is geographically based within, and providing<br class=""> services in the African region, and who is engaged in the use of,<br class=""> or business of providing, open system protocol network services; or<br class=""><br class=""> (ii) any other Person who is approved by the Board or the members.<br class=""><br class=""> I must and do apologize for my abundant ignorance, but I really am at<br class=""> a loss to understand the implications, if any, of the above quoted<br class=""> section of the Bylaws, particularly with respect to IP address<br class=""> resources.<br class=""><br class=""> If anyone would be so kind as to clarify for me whether or not Section<br class=""> 6.1 of the Bylaws have any specific implications with respect to IP<br class=""> address resources, I sure would appreciate it.<br class=""><br class="">Those are the only two questions I have for now. I look forward to being<br class="">enlightened regarding the above two points.<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Regards,<br class="">rfg<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">------------------------------<br class=""><br class="">Message: 2<br class="">Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 00:24:53 +0200<br class="">From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br class="">To: RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC<br class=""> needs this policy now!<br class="">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:47B9CD44-F769-42F7-B7A6-9FF70E00540D@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">47B9CD44-F769-42F7-B7A6-9FF70E00540D@consulintel.es</a>><br class="">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br class=""><br class="">Hi Ronald,<br class=""><br class="">I think the misconception here is to believe that we are "actually" talking about the addresses as a "transferable" object.<br class=""><br class="">By definition, the addresses aren't from the ISP that gets them.<br class=""><br class="">What we are transferring is the right to get the addresses registered for the exclusive use of the resource-holder, so that organization can use those addresses (for its own network or customers).<br class=""><br class="">In fact, we could say that the RIRs are also NOT the owners of the addresses, just the responsible of the registration services and distribution of the "rights to use them" for the community.<br class=""><br class="">I think that may clarify your points?<br class=""><br class="">And by the way, if you were right, then I'm sure we will have a problem in *every* RIR with all the transfer policies, and I guess sufficient lawyers have already looked into that!<br class=""><br class="">Regards,<br class="">Jordi<br class="">@jordipalet<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">?El 29/6/19 0:15, "Ronald F. Guilmette" <<a href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rfg@tristatelogic.com</a>> escribi?:<br class=""><br class=""> Ladies and gentlemen,<br class=""><br class=""> I must begin by saying that I have two apologies to make to you all.<br class=""><br class=""> The first, which I will need to post at a later time, is for my prior bad<br class=""> behavior and unfairly imflamitory and prejuducial comments made on this<br class=""> list some several years ago now. I was utterly wrong in my comments<br class=""> and assumptions on that occasion, and have been meaning to come here and<br class=""> post a lengthy apology every since... a task that, for one reason or<br class=""> another, has gotten put in the back burner all this time.<br class=""><br class=""> I don't even have time to go into my past mistakes or the reasons for them<br class=""> just now, so that will have to wait, and I will post a more elaborate and<br class=""> detailed apology for my past rude comments, hopefully in the very near<br class=""> future. (Perhaps nobody even remembers or cares anymore what I bad<br class=""> things I said here long ago, especially given what seems to have been<br class=""> some dramatically woser behavior here recently. But it is a matter of<br class=""> honor and I need to set the record straight and apologize properly,<br class=""> but with an explanation.)<br class=""><br class=""> My second apology is for coming in late to this discussion about the<br class=""> pending Inter-RIR policy proposal(s). I am only now becoming aware of<br class=""> this and I confess that I haven't had time to study or even think about<br class=""> either the proposal or its implications or the stated postions of various<br class=""> members on the proposal(s). Nontheless, I feel compelled to interject<br class=""> myself just for the purpose of asking a few very naive questions...<br class=""><br class=""> My starting point is Mr. Noah's recent posting on this topic...<br class=""><br class=""> In message <<a href="mailto:CAEqgTWYPEMDHoVonhaNTTY5p6%2BShVsOymaVVrz4ShKf8oju%2BvQ@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">CAEqgTWYPEMDHoVonhaNTTY5p6+ShVsOymaVVrz4ShKf8oju+vQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br class=""> Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""> >So Jordi,<br class=""> ><br class=""> >I still oppose this policy with strongest terms possible. I still believe<br class=""> >IPv4 space will leave our region so fast when holders of Idle space who are<br class=""> >yet to put them to good use as was allocated/assigned will trade them for<br class=""> >some dollars rather than return them to AfriNIC. What we need is a policy<br class=""> >that would discourage IPv4 from being transferred out of the region because<br class=""> >of attractive prices of IPv$ but rather encourage more space coming into<br class=""> >the region.<br class=""><br class=""> For whatever it is worth, I personally am totally torn on this issue. On<br class=""> the one hand, I would like to support my friend Jordi, and I do, certainly,<br class=""> with respect to his anti-hijacking proposal, but perhaps not in the<br class=""> case of Inter-RIR transfers. Also, as a longtime fighter against spam<br class=""> on the Internet, it is an has been my belief that if all IPv4 space were<br class=""> transfered, tomorrow, to whomever was the highest bidder, without any<br class=""> regard for any other consideration (e.g. geography) then this alone would<br class=""> put a major and perhaps crippling dent in the practice of so-called<br class=""> "snowshoe" spamming... a practice that requires a LOT of very cheap IPv4<br class=""> address space.<br class=""><br class=""> That all having been said, I am also quite sympathetic to the postion<br class=""> elaborated by Mr. Noah, and I could even be easily induced to begin<br class=""> chanting "Afrinic for Africans!" (And I say this even though I myself<br class=""> am not an African, either by residence or birth.)<br class=""><br class=""> At the formation, Afrinic was endowed with a great deal of IPv4 address<br class=""> space, and I believe that it was everyone's understanding, at that time,<br class=""> that all these resources would be used for the good of Africans. Much<br class=""> has transpired since that time, the Internet itself has changed dramatically,<br class=""> and an open market for IPv4 address space has now evolved. But despite<br class=""> all that, it can be, and perhaps should be argued that the fundamental<br class=""> principal should still survive, and that Afrinic space should be used to<br class=""> the benefit of Africans, and not just as an object of trade, i.e. to derive<br class=""> a one-time cash transfer to current or historical holders of these resources.<br class=""><br class=""> But I didn't come here to make speeches.<br class=""><br class=""> I said above that I would have a few naive questions, and I do. Now I<br class=""> finally come to those. Mostly my questions derive from the fundamental<br class=""> charter of Afrinic, which is to say its bylaws:<br class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://afrinic.net/bylaws" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://afrinic.net/bylaws</a><br class=""><br class=""> Here are my two questions:<br class=""><br class=""> *) Section 3.2 of the Bylaws reads as follows:<br class=""><br class=""> 3.2 The income and the capital of the Company shall be applied<br class=""> solely towards the promotion of the objects of the Company; and<br class=""> no part of the income or capital shall be paid or transferred,<br class=""> directly or indirectly, to the members, whether by way of dividend,<br class=""> capital distribution or bonus or otherwise.<br class=""><br class=""> I wonder if anyone has considered, or reconsidered the implications,<br class=""> legal and otherwise, of this (historical?) section of the bylaws,<br class=""> particularly now that IPv4 address blocks may be, and quite certainly<br class=""> are being treated, by major accounting firms, as part of the capital<br class=""> assets of the various companies, worldwide, i.e. all those that<br class=""> currently buy, sell, trade, and "own" them.<br class=""><br class=""> That's my question. Does Section 3.2 of the Bylaws prohibit Afrinic<br class=""> from "transferring" IP address blocks to any party AT ALL? (Remember,<br class=""> I did warn you all above that my questions would be naive!)<br class=""><br class=""> *) Section 6.1 of the Bylaws reds as follows:<br class=""><br class=""> 6.1 Membership shall be open to:<br class=""><br class=""> (i) any Person who is geographically based within, and providing<br class=""> services in the African region, and who is engaged in the use of,<br class=""> or business of providing, open system protocol network services; or<br class=""><br class=""> (ii) any other Person who is approved by the Board or the members.<br class=""><br class=""> I must and do apologize for my abundant ignorance, but I really am at<br class=""> a loss to understand the implications, if any, of the above quoted<br class=""> section of the Bylaws, particularly with respect to IP address<br class=""> resources.<br class=""><br class=""> If anyone would be so kind as to clarify for me whether or not Section<br class=""> 6.1 of the Bylaws have any specific implications with respect to IP<br class=""> address resources, I sure would appreciate it.<br class=""><br class=""> Those are the only two questions I have for now. I look forward to being<br class=""> enlightened regarding the above two points.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> Regards,<br class=""> rfg<br class=""><br class=""> _______________________________________________<br class=""> RPD mailing list<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">**********************************************<br class="">IPv4 is over<br class="">Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br class=""><a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br class="">The IPv6 Company<br class=""><br class="">This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">------------------------------<br class=""><br class="">Message: 3<br class="">Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:58:55 -0700<br class="">From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <<a href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rfg@tristatelogic.com</a>><br class="">Cc: RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC<br class=""> needs this policy now!<br class="">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:80420.1561762735@segfault.tristatelogic.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">80420.1561762735@segfault.tristatelogic.com</a>><br class="">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br class=""><br class="">In message <<a href="mailto:47B9CD44-F769-42F7-B7A6-9FF70E00540D@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">47B9CD44-F769-42F7-B7A6-9FF70E00540D@consulintel.es</a>>,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">>I think that may clarify your points?<br class=""><br class="">Not really. But thanks for trying.<br class=""><br class="">I raised two points, one of them arguably silly, and the other one<br class="">arguably less so.<br class=""><br class="">My first point was that the plain language of Section 3.2 of the Bylaws<br class="">could be construed to disable Afrinic's ablity to "transfer" any kind of<br class="">"asset" to any party. And if "asset" were, in this context, construed<br class="">broadly, then that would result in the arguably remarkable outcome that<br class="">Afrinic could not "transfer" any IP address resources to any party.<br class=""><br class="">Words have meaning, and not just to lawyers, but also to statesmen and<br class="">to those debating policy decisions. So my hope is that Section 3.2 of<br class="">the Bylaws may at some point be formally clarified so as to remove any<br class="">ambiguity.<br class=""><br class="">My second point was about Section 6.1 of the Bylaws which, on the face<br class="">of it, contains a geographically-limited residence/service requirement.<br class=""><br class="">I want to know if that Section still has any current meaning, and if so,<br class="">what that meaning is.<br class=""><br class="">I do not assme that just because it is written in the Bylaws that this<br class="">section has any actual current operative meaning. It may perhaps not.<br class="">I am just asking the question. (In the fundamental Constitution, as<br class="">amended, of my own home nation, there appear the words "A well regulated<br class="">Militia...", however over time, that specific phrase has been adjudicated<br class="">to have essentially no meaning whatsoever, and thus, no practical<br class="">implications whatsoever. It may perhaps be likewise for Section 6.1<br class="">of the Afrinic Bylaws.)<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Regards,<br class="">rfg<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">------------------------------<br class=""><br class="">Message: 4<br class="">Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 19:58:03 -0700<br class="">From: Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">owen@delong.com</a>><br class="">To: Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>><br class="">Cc: RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC<br class=""> needs this policy now!<br class="">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:030F0F9B-29C0-4DF2-9147-94E1B2072385@delong.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">030F0F9B-29C0-4DF2-9147-94E1B2072385@delong.com</a>><br class="">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">> On Jun 28, 2019, at 10:46 , Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 5:47 PM Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>>> wrote:<br class="">> Yes Noah, you are right, people don?t play with money.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Ooh yes and in the face of some $ and idle space, the idle space will go in exchange for some $ and this is simple economics. Space is obtained for one reason.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> And quite frankly ? I?d rather stick to this continent ? rather than being forced to take space in an alternative region with another RIR because I?m going to have to buy in space one of these days ? and guess what ? the space in Africa ? at the rates we?re using it ? doesn?t exist ? it does however exist outside.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Then we don't need reciprocal but rather one direction (into Africa). By the way, do we honestly believe that all allocated/assigned space within Africa has been put to good use? Because save for ISP's and content folks who assign space on a daily basis to enterprise customers, most of the other AfriNIC resource members are heavily using NAT with half of the space being under utilized. That space will flow out quick if there is a market for it.<br class=""><br class="">Actually, as it stands in most of the other RIRs, you do need reciprocal because if your policy is non-reciprocal, their policies won?t allow the space to flow into your region.<br class=""><br class="">This isn?t about trying to exploit addresses from Africa, it?s about the concept of fairness. Even China?s NIR eventually recognized that the one-way policy was preventing them from obtaining resources and switched to a bidirectional transfer policy. Since then, they remain a net importer of addresses.<br class=""><br class="">> So you can force guys like myself to go buy it through a ripe membership, or you can let me bring the space onto the continent.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I would not say force but I would rather encourage you who is a member of both AfriNIC and RIPE (available space), to actually consider getting some from RIPE for some use in Africa.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Why would you want him exporting money to RIPE rather than paying fees to AfriNIC for the same space?<br class=""><br class="">If you have the transfer policy, he gets the space from a RIPE member and brings it into AfriNIC for administration and pays fees to AfriNIC.<br class="">If you don?t have a transfer policy, he gets the space from RIPE, keeps his space in RIPE and all his fees go too RIPE.<br class=""><br class="">What am I missing, Noah?<br class=""><br class="">Owen<br class=""><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Andrew<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> From: Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Sent: Friday, 28 June 2019 16:30<br class="">> To: Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>>><br class="">> Cc: Boubakar Barry <<a href="mailto:boubakarbarry@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">boubakarbarry@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:boubakarbarry@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">boubakarbarry@gmail.com</a>>>; JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>>>; RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>><br class="">> Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:17 PM Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>>> wrote:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Are you not asking for the identical thing?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> You have absolutely zero empirical data about how much space will supposedly flow off the continent ? and I strongly dispute that it will ? because I don?t believe there is enough of it on the continent as it is to even serve current needs.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> We?re being asked to refuse support for as policy based on fear mongering that has no evidence to support said fears<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> There is historical evidence to show that other resources (non-INR) have left the continent to the benefit of other regions but Africa. Show them the $$$ and they will dance.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I had a very interesting discussion with one of the IPv$ brokers and and he surely cant wait to trade some of the space in our region. I will not go into the details of that discussion but it was enough for me to personally stay firm to my opposition of any policy that would open room for resources meant to be used in our region being traded fast due to economic reasons beyond the real purpose they were meant for which is to help build the African Internet Infrastructure.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> You think its fear mongering, but I can assure you that money is money and people dont play around when it comes to money.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Noah<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Andrew<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> From: Boubakar Barry <<a href="mailto:boubakarbarry@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">boubakarbarry@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:boubakarbarry@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">boubakarbarry@gmail.com</a>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Sent: Friday, 28 June 2019 16:01<br class="">> To: Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>>><br class="">> Cc: Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>>>; JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>>>; RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>><br class="">> Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 11:29 AM Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>>> wrote:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> You?re asking for the impossible ? because to get that you?d need to go to all the brokers (I assume)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> So, we jump into the dark, with no parachute (data would have helped somehow), all eyes closed? Keeping them open in these circumstances won't help anyway.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Boubakar<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> From: Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Sent: Friday, 28 June 2019 14:17<br class="">> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>>><br class="">> Cc: RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>><br class="">> Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> So Jordi,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I still oppose this policy with strongest terms possible. I still believe IPv4 space will leave our region so fast when holders of Idle space who are yet to put them to good use as was allocated/assigned will trade them for some dollars rather than return them to AfriNIC. What we need is a policy that would discourage IPv4 from being transferred out of the region because of attractive prices of IPv$ but rather encourage more space coming into the region.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> We already have a transfer policy that can facilitate internal transfers withing our region and I am keen of getting a report from AfriNIC on how this is going.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> @Jordi, please also share some statistical numbers of available IPv4 space that would actually come into our region so that we can work with figures rather than assumptions.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Noah<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 7:01 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>> wrote:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Hi again Sylvain,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I?m very thankful for your inputs!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> We need to make sure that others also participate!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> See below in-line.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Regards,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Jordi<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> @jordipalet<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> El 21/6/19 23:15, "Sylvain BAYA" <<a href="mailto:abscoco@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">abscoco@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:abscoco@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">abscoco@gmail.com</a>>> escribi?:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Hi all,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Le vendredi 21 juin 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>> a ?crit :<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Hi Sylvain,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I want to thank you, I guess we won a ?strong? contributor to policy discussions! (I recall your name from previous discussions, but you?re now more active, which is what I wish from every one).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> :-D ...please don't expose me too much Jordi ;-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I'm just trying to do my best...i'm not any kind of expert :'-(<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Now I realized that you were not on-site, pity!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> See below, in-line.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Saludos,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Jordi<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> @jordipalet<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> El 20/6/19 22:37, "Sylvain BAYA" <<a href="mailto:abscoco@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">abscoco@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:abscoco@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">abscoco@gmail.com</a>>> escribi?:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Hi all,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Please see, inline, below...<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Le jeudi 20 juin 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>> a ?crit :<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Hi Sylvain,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Sorry the email was sent before I finished it ?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Responding below, in-line.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Regards,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Jordi<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> @jordipalet<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> El 20/6/19 15:05, "Sylvain BAYA" <<a href="mailto:abscoco@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">abscoco@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:abscoco@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">abscoco@gmail.com</a>>> escribi?:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Hi all,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Le jeudi 20 juin 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>> a ?crit :<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> As said, this text is redundant (see specific text below my signature), but I don't mind to have explicit text if this facilitate the community to reach consensus.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Here is my proposal, again, please comment about this ASAP, so we can submit a new version already, instead of waiting to be closer to the next meeting. This way we can ensure that we get on time the staff impact analysis, in case something else need to be amended.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> "The Inter-RIR transfers will be automatically suspended in case the balance between IPv4 out-going and in-coming addresses becomes cero."<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Jordi,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ...typos on ?zero? ?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Yeah ? my spelling checker often confuses English and Spanish!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Anyway, here is a better version, because this balance is actually ?cero? at the start of the implementation, so the text may be misleading, we need to define .<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Alright !<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I like the new visage of this policy proposal because i really appreciate the way you are leading the discussions around it.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Believe me, that I always try to heard everybody position and accommodate as much as possible, my own thinking/knowledge and the text to that (or convincing other if I believe they have a wrong vision). This is the way to reach consensus.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Go ahead on this way ! i declare my support for such an approach, because i'm personaly sharing a similar approach.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Hopefully other participants will also share it.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> While contributing to this thread, what i want is to be sure that this policy proposal could be really beneficial to AFRINIC region|community.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Same as me, again, the right thing to do.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ?The Inter-RIR transfers will only be enabled once AFRINIC enter into Exhaustion Phase 2 (<a href="http://5.4.3.2/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">5.4.3.2</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="http://5.4.3.2/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://5.4.3.2/</a>>). The Inter-RIR transfers will be automatically suspended in case the number of out-going IPv4 addresses exceeds the in-coming ones by six consecutive months.?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> This version is a good starting point. Thanks.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I understand it like this :<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * This Policy Validity Starting Point : Exhaustion Phase 2<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * Initial point : balance of zero (nothing in|out)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * First auto-stop point : when the in/out balance becomes down<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ..* After 06 consecutive months {seems to be not interesting for me}<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ..* Even 02 consecutive months is not really interesting, because we miss an #x amount (or %) of resource (IPv4) limit to not reach at any time (without any mention of #y consecutive months) to reduce an unwilling risk.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> This policy shall be able, maybe, to stop a transaction (in course) which could conduct us out of a specific low acceptable in/out balance. So think about it again please.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> This is not possible, I believe, unless someone discovers a ?magic way to write it down? (which I can?t see now). Anyway, I?m still trying to think something before ending this email ?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ...quite difficult for sure :-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> It's simply confirming us that to reach the *goal* of this (and other) policy proposal, we need to think deeply on details. Other meaning : we need more active volunteers|participants engaged with sincere contributions.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> *EXACTLY!* Meetings time is precious and we aren?t allowed to modify the text of the proposals on-site, we need inputs way ahead!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I?ve not personally been involved in transfers, but I understand the process and transfers don?t happen ?in the second?. There are documents to review, justification to be reviewed by the two RIRs, contracts to be signed, payments to be done (via an escrow), etc. It is a matter of several days or weeks.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Thanks for these clarifications.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> It may happen that in the middle of a month, several ?negotiations? for transfers are running, and some of them in one or the other direction may reach or not in time for the end of that month. That?s why I?m suggesting a number of months.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ...to my knowledge, to better text this situation (and reach the *goal*) we must considere that the transfer is started when the parties have sent a request to the staff.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> What we can also do is to add a new section with advices for those who will need to start a inter RIR transfer procedure. On that section, we shall explain why they must not take more than one (?), two or three months to complete the pre-process (b2b negociations). They shall know and understand the risk to come too late to the staff to request a transfer ; because the negociation phase took too much time... :-/<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I don?t think this is possible. Transfers have a lot of ?business talks? among the parties. Only once the parties have reached an agreement, they need to go into the process. You could do on the other way around, it can be a mix of both. I don?t think the community must provide a rule on that, because this has not been done in other RIRs. If we try to setup our own rule, then our policy will have mismatches with the other policies and then we may be in the situation that they are not reciprocal, or the existing procedures in the other regions need to be re-worked, why they are going to do it, now that we are the last one?.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> If the staff tries to evaluate the transfers at a single point in time, it may be misleading as some operations in the opposite direction may be being processed. The RIRs may have an ?alert? of a possible transfer, depending on the direction, I don?t know if the exiting coordination systems allow them to check those (this will sort out the problem), but still will not be precise, as some other folks may be ?negotiating? a transfer and have not yet informed the relevant RIRs until the parties agree.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Ok, we need a clarification from the staff. But before that, i propose something below to address the problem...<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> If we stop the policy immediately the balance becomes ?bad? for AFRINIC, then a transfer in the other direction will not be able to happen. You see the point.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Ok you are right ! But let me try other possibility|solution i see : are we still prioritising incoming transfers ? :-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> To be sure, i think we can include a similar (to the following) text (about transfer procedure) :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ?Initiators of a transfer must start the procedure earlier by submitting their request. The transfer procedure is concluded after a cycle of $four months, devided in two periods of $two months for each. Initiators submit their case to the staff and wait for the staff to give their conclusion at least $two months after the "submissions period" and not more than $four months (including the "verification period"). The staff will collect the cases (submissions|requests) during the "submissions period". The staff can start to study the cases immediately, after receiving them, until the end of the "verification period" which is coinciding with the next "submission period"; while collecting other cases. Those in line with the CPM (policy compliant) at the end of the correspondent "verification period". The staff should focus to the goal : keep the in/out balance exceding. Incoming transfer submissions shall be prioritised and treated separately.?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I don?t think this will work, as I just explained a few reasons above. In principle I will not support this.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> With this bit of text, i'm trying to solve a problem you raised above.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> It does, at least, the following :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * To change the approach in considering that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * We can considerably diminish the risk by allowing the staff to study the transfer submissions (cases) during the same dedicated "verifications period" (even just during $one month if possible) and<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * Inform all the requestors only after the "verifications period"<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * With the *goal* balance in mind :-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * Special treathment for incoming transfers ;-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * A cycle of four months within two equal periods for submissions and verifications<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * More control of the balance<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * Focus : *goal* balance<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> * ...<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> See below ? it is not needed. I think, just you misunderstood my point 4.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> We need to ?take a bit of risk?, considering that the real risk, looking at the numbers I?ve presented is really low.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I agree, but just a *bit of risk* :-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I wasn't able to follow your first presentation during the PPM (Public Policy Meeting), just the Hijacking one. Please share the slides of all your policy proposal presentations.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> And now I realize this is part of the problem for your questions. Please, pause this discussion until you?re able to see the video of my presentation and the slides! I guess then you may change a bit your view about the risk, etc.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I already asked the staff (previous email) to make sure they are published tomorrow. I think they deserve the break today :-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Remember that ?nobody? from AFRINIC is forced to sell. Who will sell? Those that for example, reduce or close the business, or those that deploy IPv6, etc.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Ok it walk samely for incoming and outgoing transfers. Considering that we have a seller and a buyer on both side transfers.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Who will buy? Those that go to AFRINIC, ask for more, can?t get all what they need, and try to get the rest of their needs via transfers.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> What is the logic here? Why ARIN is the major donator to all the other RIRs?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ...to what i recall [1] they still have too much unused IPv4 addresses.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> If we don?t take a risk, we lose.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ...i'm ok with that, but let's try to find the lowest risk :-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> This means that if one month there are ?more addresses going out?, it happens again the next month, and it happens again by a third month and so on, then is suspended.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ...so monthly public reports should be needed (for the community to follow-up and for more transparency) ?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> If yes, let's clearly state|text it also.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I believe there is already a public AFRINIC reporting of the Inter-RIR transfers, so we will see this reported ASAP any transfer is completed I think.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Can someone share an uri ?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I think we must insert this requirement to the relevant section of the CPM, if not existent.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> If this is not the case (can please the staff confirm?), I fully agree (for both Inter and Intra-RIR) and will add a specific text so they are reported, not just monthly, but with each completed transfer.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> You are welcome ! Thanks :-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Which this web page, any member, the board, etc., can tell the staff at any point, if they don?t realize by themselves, ?hey what is going on here? Are we good with the transfers??.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Yes, transparency and more power to the community ;-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I?ve also added a condition to make sure that this policy only starts once we are in the next exhaustion phase.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> So, you shall consider that, if AFRINIC service|community doesn't gain anything in the balance this policy should not be needed...<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> And that should be clearly stated.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I agree with that, but I don?t think we need to put that in the policy text, this should be in the text of the policy justification.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ...wasn't the point here. Apologize but English is not my first tongue.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> What i was (trying) advising|suggesting is to ensure to text it the clearest possible ; in order to remove any ambiguity.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I'm glad that you have seen, by yourself, that there was a problem with the first zero state.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Got it, thanks! And nothing to excuse!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Note that in order to make it simpler, I've used a text that instead of talking about %, is stating that the balance of in/out is reached. This way we ensure that the total number of the "region IPv4 addresses" never can go down regarding the actual figures, so Africa never will lose addresses. Do you think this is good enough?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Ok after policing this, it seems to be necessary to clearly state, *?policily?*, that the staff must follow-up (automatically) the in/out balance, with regular (automated) public reports and a special (auto) stop report (for the zero state).<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I'm not sure how to "policy-ze" this idea. Perhaps with a separate policy ?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I?m not completely sure to understand 100% what you mean, but let me try anyway: Staff is mandated to follow the policies. So, during the implementation the staff will make the necessary provisions so they get an alarm when the balance of in-coming vs out-going addresses becomes cero. It may be done automatically anyway, but at least they should get an ?alarm?. The operational details about ?how? to implement this are outside of the policy scope.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Ok i am in accord with the logic of separation between policy rules and their operational implementations. I don't want us to ?policy-ze? the implementation phase of any policy :-)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> But you probably miss something in my above suggestion.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> The point is that, if you don't clearly ask, via a policy, for a regular (public) report (for example) from the staff, you could not be sure to get it when it shall be needed. Because, without a specific policy provision, it will be just out of their duties...<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Let?s try it again, based on all the discussion (the numbers are just to split the text now, they will be correctly placed in the relevant part of the policy proposal when we ?reach consensus? about this text:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> 1. Each time a transfer is completed, the relevant, non-confidential information will be automatically published in a specific web page, including at least: Date of the transfer, transferred addresses, source organization and RIR, destination organization and RIR.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> 2. The Inter-RIR transfers will only be enabled once AFRINIC enter into Exhaustion Phase 2 (<a href="http://5.4.3.2/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">5.4.3.2</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="http://5.4.3.2/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://5.4.3.2/</a>>).<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> 3. The Inter-RIR transfers will be automatically suspended in case the number of outgoing IPv4 addresses exceeds the incoming ones by six consecutive months.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> 4. The staff can provisionally suspend any suspicious operation that creates a big unbalance against AFRINIC, until the board takes a decision.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> See point 4. If there is any suspicious unbalance, the suspension temporary suspension of *that* operation protects our pool of addresses, for a few days (I guess the board in that case should call for a decision by email or by conference call), and meanwhile, it can be observed if other ?incoming? operations will restore the balance.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Possible solution, thanks for the effort you produced above. But there is still more than acceptable risk on it (including point 4) ; because the next new transfer request can come after the *few* days of suspension.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> The point here is that the staff is still able to suspend any suspicious operation. Not just one. Is not that clear my text? (any)<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Please look how to also consider the alternative solution i have proposed above. I don't need you to keep that text as it is, but to use it to figure how it could be merged with yours and reduce the risk (no suspension with it).<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> __<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> [1]: MIT and their 8 million IPv4 addresses ?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.techspot.com/news/69055-mit-unload-8-million-ipv4-addresses-fund-ipv6.html" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.techspot.com/news/69055-mit-unload-8-million-ipv4-addresses-fund-ipv6.html</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="https://www.techspot.com/news/69055-mit-unload-8-million-ipv4-addresses-fund-ipv6.html" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.techspot.com/news/69055-mit-unload-8-million-ipv4-addresses-fund-ipv6.html</a>><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Friendly,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> --sb.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I really believe this is not needed, it can be done applying the bylaws (very recently ARIN board suspended in emergency a policy, so it is a good demonstration that this works even if is not in the policy) but I?m happy to keep this text if this means that we are more unconcerned this way.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> What do you think?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Thanks!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> [...]<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> _______________________________________________ RPD mailing list<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">RPD@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">RPD@afrinic.net</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> **********************************************<br class="">> IPv4 is over<br class="">> Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.theipv6company.com/</a>><br class="">> The IPv6 Company<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. 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