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<p>{i'm starting a new thread. Source : <span
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2019/009601.html"><https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2019/009601.html></a></span>}
</p>
<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>...Please see below (inline).<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 6/25/2019 à 9:09 AM, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D4D8B78A-38FB-424E-8A87-1520EC4A8E75@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">See below, in-line.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> <br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El 25/6/19
1:21, "Sylvain BAYA" <<a
href="mailto:abscoco@gmail.com">abscoco@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">[...]</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">...not sure if we can do it so simple as you
want it ; but...we should try ;-) </span></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><span lang="EN-US">I think
we may use this one, which is a very simple change, and I
hope everybody in the community will be happy to accept as
a “trial”. I’m not suggesting at this time to use it for
other policy proposals. If it works, in the future we can
consider a PDP change to allow policies to go thru the
mailing list without the need to wait for the meeting (as
we do in IETF and RIPE). It is up to the chairs at this
time to accept it and the community to decide on this
small change then.</span></li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
Jordi, thanks for your very kick response :-)<br>
</p>
<p>...as it was, i still believe it can not *correctly* fix our
problem (i may be wrong), and of course it's not just about the
*simplicity* ; it's first about having a workable solution which
could address most of the known issues. I have observed that it
appears to try to get thing done by simply officialising the
*agreement* the Chairs concluded with the Staff. <br>
</p>
<p>But what do i think that was missing :</p>
<p>- I think, as it was, it does not guarantee us to have a timely
Impact Analysis Report (IAR) for all versions (particulary
intermediary ones) of any policy proposal {not really a big issue
for me ; because it would be acceptable to have at least an IAR,
even only, for the first version and for the last version of a
proposal published before the PPM (Public Policy Meeting) and at
least a week before the deadline (TBD | To Be Defined to better
fit) of the publication of all IARs}.</p>
<p>- It also miss to provide the possibility, for the Chairs, to
request for an IAR (as the CPM section 3.4.1 actually allows it),
for an intermediary new version of a given policy proposal ; where
the community agrees there is a need for an IAR. <br>
</p>
<p>- That text was giving to the Staff the rights to provide only
one IAR, even if an author publish more than three (very
impacting) versions of a proposal in five month between two PPM.
{this could be a good point depending on which side you stand :
Staff or Community.}<br>
<br>
</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D4D8B78A-38FB-424E-8A87-1520EC4A8E75@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">I’m proposing you the following and I’m doing
it openly in the list, so others can provide inputs as
well.</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">I agree, let's discuss openly to
collect any available input :-)</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">According “3.6 Varying the Process”, for that
we need a *<b>co-chair</b>* to accept it. Any taker?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">This is the variance that I’m proposing:</span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo3"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Publish officially the policy proposal and
start a 4-weeks for community discussion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo3"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">If after that, the chairs believe there is
consensus, last-call for 4-weeks.</span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo3"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">If there is no-consensus, allow to repeat the
process, maximum up to one month before the next meeting
(then there is no need for the variance of the process).</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">4. This Variance decision shall
take effect one month after its publication on the PDP list.</p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">-> not sure
what do you mean here. Once the chairs accept it, the policy
proposal can be submitted and published in a few days. There
will be 4-weeks (I think is sufficient for this case but I’m
happy for more) for discussing. So why 4 more weeks are
needed? We want to keep it simple, if we start discussing
about the variance itself, we may never have go thru it …</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US">5. That first
month after the publication of the Variance decision shall
serve to prepare the commuty before the effective start
point of the cycle of variance.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">-> Now I see
it, but I don’t think is needed. We are already talking
about it, community should be reading (those not reading now
will not read later … according to my experience, and
anyway, they have several weeks to discuss), and it may take
several days for the chairs to decide, then to prepare a
policy proposal document, then to publish it, and finally
for a formal announcement of the process. The chairs may
decide to just use 6 weeks or 8 instead of 4. Whatever they
decide I’m ok with that.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Thanks, for your explanation, i understand now why it's not
necessary to delay the starting point of the variance period.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D4D8B78A-38FB-424E-8A87-1520EC4A8E75@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">*Question* : where to store this
Variance decision and its future successors ?</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">...to what i understand, when
published it becomes part of the PDP and supersides all
existent concurrent texts which might conflict with it. </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">-> there is no
difference between how a policy proposal is handled, same
process versus a normal one (web page, presentation in the
next meeting if reached consensus, minutes, etc.).</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
:-/ not sure if you are speaking about the *variance decision* taken
by the Chairs or about the policy proposal (IAR Timely
Disponibility) under the *variance of the process*. I'm ok with the
PDP for the latter, but my question was about the first.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D4D8B78A-38FB-424E-8A87-1520EC4A8E75@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">*A Proposed Answer*</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">With the CPM section 3.6, can we
conclude that it's not possible to alter the CPM to
insert|store the variance decision ? (perhaps we should also
prepare a policy proposal to amend the CPM section 3.6 :-/)</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">I have an idea, i'm not sure it
could work fine. But let's give it a try please :-)</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">...so when the Chairs annonce a
new variance of the CPM, we can tag the title of all the
section affected by the new variance decision by something
like [SUPERSIDED by Variance in Place ; see Section 3.6.1] :</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">+ We leave the actual texts of any
affected sections as it is :</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">+ Just add a special tag with a
small text to the title ?</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">Like this : [SUPERSIDED by the
Varying in Place ; see section 3.6.1]</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">+ Title the section 3.6.1 by :
Active Variance Process Decisions</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">+ Paste the variance decision at
the section 3.6.1. (new sub-section)</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">+ Remove the content of the
section when the Variance Decision expires.</p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">I don’t think this is needed and this
makes it very complex, as it means we must change the PDP
before processing this variance …</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
...i also hope it is not needed, Jordi. But please also considere
that the Staff has less than six months (CPM section 3.4.5) to
implement a new policy, then they would be able to insert the new
change (to the CPM, if needed) once the ratification from the BoD
(CPM section 3.4.4). <br>
</p>
<p>As we have the opportunity to use the *variance* for the first
time, i wanted to share my concerns and i added a possible
solution. But i'm ok to use it (as you proposed it) first ; then
come back at the end of the *variance period* for a thorough
appraisal.<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D4D8B78A-38FB-424E-8A87-1520EC4A8E75@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">***</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">ACTUAL text (at 3.4.1):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">The Working Group
Chair(s) may request AFRINIC to provide an analysis
(technical, financial, legal or other), of the impact of
the draft policy proposal.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">DRAFT proposed text (replace the previous
text):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">AFRINIC will publish an impact analysis
(technical, financial, legal or other) at least 10 days
before the next Public Policy Meeting. If justified, in
case of extremely complex new policy proposals, AFRINIC
will publish at least a draft version of the impact
analysis.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">***</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">As discussed before, the problem
to solve is too complex. To handle most of the complexity, i
propose this text instead : </p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">*** DRAFT proposed text (replace
the previous text):<br>
* The AFRINIC Staff publish (website and RPD mailinglist) an
impact analysis report <span class="tlid-translation"><span
lang="EN">during the first week after a new policy
proposal is published.</span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span class="tlid-translation"><span
lang="EN">* When a new version of a policy proposal is
published, on request of the Chair(s) or the Author(s),
the Staff publish a new impact analysis report, during the
first week after the publication of that policy proposal
version.</span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span class="tlid-translation"><span
lang="EN">* </span></span>No impact analysis report
should be published ten (10) days before the next Public
Policy Meeting. </p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">* If justified, in case of
extremely complex new policy proposals, AFRINIC Staff publish
at least a draft version of the impact analysis report.</p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">* An impact analysis report shall
be of one or both following types : technical, financial,
legal or other. <br>
*** END</p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">-> I think
you’re making it extremely complex without a real need for
that. Keep it simple and “short”. Some impact analysis need
much more time than a week. Just let’s make sure we have it
ahead of the meeting. 10 days allows the authors, if they
are quick, to publish immediately a new version (within the
1-week deadline before the meeting), in case minor issues
discovered by the impact analysis (I’ve done that in a
couple of cases!). The impact analysis already includes all
that, no need to mention it.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
...again, i have no problem with simplicity (yes it still a
difficult exercise for me to write short texts which would take into
account complex considerations. I admit to need some help here) ;
however i don't see (IMHO) simplicity and shortness as the similar
things. Your explanation is awaiting.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D4D8B78A-38FB-424E-8A87-1520EC4A8E75@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">-> This will
only work if we make it extremely simple and acceptable for
all the community. I’m happy to change the 10-days before
the meeting to 2-weeks, for example. See a new version
below.</span></p>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
...now i ask you to explain me how your actual text can deal with
all these points i listed on top of this mail. As soon as you
confirm me that it taking into account these basic requirements it
will be seen as a sustainable draft policy proposal which can
correct the problem we actually faced with the IARs.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D4D8B78A-38FB-424E-8A87-1520EC4A8E75@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">DRAFT proposed text (replace the previous
text):</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">AFRINIC will publish an impact analysis
(including technical, financial, legal and other aspects) as
soon as possible for each policy proposal submitted (as a
maximum 2 weeks before the next Public Policy Meeting). When
duly justified, in case of extremely complex new policy
proposals, AFRINIC will publish meanwhile a draft version of
the impact analysis.</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><span
lang="EN-US"> </span> </p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> </blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>...i can live with this version, better than the previous. But,
please, can you check it once more against the basics requirements
i listed on the near top of this mail ? ;-)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Thanks & Shalom,</p>
<p>--sb.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D4D8B78A-38FB-424E-8A87-1520EC4A8E75@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">This small change in our PDP will prove
ourselves that AFRINIC community is able to pro-actively
discuss and pass policy proposals in the list.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">What do you think?</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
I agree that we are doing a good job (thank GOD), together,
and hopefully some other will follow this challenging
approach. </p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
[...]<br>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Regards,
Sylvain B.
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.chretiennement.org"><http://www.chretiennement.org></a>
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