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<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>...please see below (inline).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 6/20/2019 à 11:38 PM, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via RPD a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Hi Sylvain,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Responding below, in-line.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El 20/6/19
22:31, "Sylvain BAYA" <<a
href="mailto:abscoco@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">abscoco@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Hi all, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">I agree with
the concern raised by Jordi below.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">We must try to
fix it together.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">It sound like
a policy issue :-/<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">...other
comments, inline, below please.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Le jeudi 20
juin 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Hi,<br>
<br>
I will like to ask the staff to complete *ASAP* their
impact analysis in the policy proposal <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Jordi, even
if it's desirable, to have such an impact analysis at
time, you can not (policily speaking) ask for it this way
(contact the staff privately or propose a suitable process
with a reasonable timing ?) :-)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">You probably missed this before, but we
already discussed in the list the need to have on-time
an impact analysis for all the policies. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>...no because i was, hiddenly, following this [1] thread ;-) and
what i said was extracted from there :-)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">It is part of the process (no something new
that I’m trying to impose). </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I wasn't thinking it :-)</p>
<p>But i was just trying to, silently, recall the process as
provisioned by the CPM section 3.4.1.</p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div;border-top:dotted windowtext
3.0pt;border-left:none;border-bottom:dotted windowtext
3.0pt;border-right:none;padding:1.0pt 0cm 1.0pt 0cm"><span
lang="EN-US"></span>CPM section 3.4.1 : «[...]The Working Group
Chair(s) may request AFRINIC to provide an analysis (technical,
financial, legal or other), of the impact of the draft policy
proposal.[...]»</div>
<p>...i think we must follow our rules or change them if they appear
to be broken somewhere. Right ?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">I may agree that if a proposal has been
submitted only 10 days before the meeting, it may be
difficult to make it in time, but not for a “new”
version of an existing proposal, which already had the
analysis impact.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Ok if it's unpractical, we should try to modify the CPM, at
section 3.4.2, to fix|ameliorate what seems to be broken... </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div;border-top:dotted windowtext
3.0pt;border-left:none;border-bottom:dotted windowtext
3.0pt;border-right:none;padding:1.0pt 0cm 1.0pt 0cm"><span
lang="EN-US"></span>CPM section 3.4.2 : «[...]No change can be
made to a draft policy within one week of the meeting. This is so
that a stable version of the draft policy can be considered at the
meeting.[...]» </div>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p>And of course, I’ve asked the
staff several times for it, during the last weeks.
Co-chairs were copied. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Ok, i personaly think that it is legitimate to want to move
things forward ; but i also understand (policily speaking) that
the staff was in their rights to not considere your *direct*
request as a legitimate one. Even though i guess they were just
busy :-) <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">Precisely, most of the newer versions, at
least in the case of my proposals, where to address the
points raised in the impact analysis. So, it should be
easy to get the previous impact analysis, compare the
differences of the old and new versions of the policy
proposal, against the impact analysis, and raise if
something is missing.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>:-) i'm sure that at least one of them (policy liaison?) might be
reading...</p>
<p>Do you think we should also (policily speaking) ask one of them
(say the same staff member i mentioned above) to follow|read the
discussions and react when we need|seek their expertise ? :-D<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><o:p> <br>
</o:p></span></p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">Believe me, in most of the proposals, this
is a matter of few hours of dedication. My only concern
is if staff is overbooked, which is something that
should be evaluated by the organization (not authors). </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>First, have we already tried to fix the problem with our means
(the policy) ?</p>
<p>Secondly, is it possible ?</p>
<p>We know that the staff has their job description (within SLC -
Service Level Commitment) and if something is not clearly included
into their duties, it could be difficult to get them to do it, at
time, even if they are not busiest...<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">I agree that *one* of my proposals, sent 1
months in advance to the meeting, may require “more than
a month” to do the analysis impact, but not all the
other ones.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
lang="EN-US">If publicly, i think you should ask it to
the new Co-chairs (Moses & Abdulkarim), with the
appropriate Policy provision for them to act kickly
accordingly. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">Poor Moses and Abdulkarim, you want me to
stress them the first day? Just joking. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>...have you read the mail of Abdulkarim ? I think, at least that
guy is ready for the task :-)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">I’m pretty sure I have briefly talked about
this with at least one of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">Note that I’ve sent the email to the list
as suggested by some talks with community folks. Is not
to blame anyone from the staff, is to make sure that we
avoid repeating it in the future.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>...because it's important to the best of the PDWG (Policy
Development Working Group), let's try to *rule* it inside the PDP
[2] (Policy Development Process).<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Hope you
will not have to realise such an impact analysis by
yourself as suggested by some participants ; if i recall
well :'-(<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">Don’t recall that comment, unless you refer
to those that asked me to have the numbers, which is
something I can’t have, is the staff to provide. I’ve
actually asked for that for my presentation, but didn’t
got a response. Just used to it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">Of course, if I can help doing the impact
analysis, I’m always happy. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Good to know. It gives me an idea...<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">However, I think it is much more coherent
that is done by staff, as probably will be more
objective and they can discover issues that I can read
my own text 100 times and not see them. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>You are right !<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">This is the normal process:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Authors submit
the proposal<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Proposal is
published (sometimes it takes too long) and discussion
starts<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Staff do the
impact analysis<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Staff and
authors review impact analysis in case something was
misunderstood, etc., for example this may happen when
English is not your native language and you try to
write something in a way that staff can’t read the
same way you do and it may be so broken that it
changes key aspects of the proposal<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Staff publish
impact analysis<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">At some point,
authors looking at list discussion and impact
analysis, submit a new version, so we are back at the
start point.<o:p></o:p></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><o:p> <br>
</o:p></span></li>
</ol>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Thanks for your support. I really appreciate.<br>
</p>
<p>...for point 3, i agree that if you only considere this [3] old
chart, you will be right ; but the useful rules are at CPM section
3.4.1 ; also pasted above.</p>
<p>I think that this [3] chart could also be ameliorated...because
imho it can misguide.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">that didn't
reached consensus, so the authors can publish new versions
immediately and have more time to discuss before the next
meeting.<br>
<br>
I've submitted some proposals that are new version of
existing ones some of them even 2 months before the
meeting, and the impact analysis has not been updated.<br>
<br>
I think this is actually an extreme delay for such impact
analysis update, and this doesn't help the authors to
correct mistakes and consequently makes more difficult for
the community to take a decision.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">...this
seems to prove a need for a new version of the PDP (Policy
Development Process) :-/<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">A candidate
rule to update ?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">There is a process already for that, simply
is not being followed timely.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>...it seems as there is something to fix :-)</p>
<p>Considering what i have said above, do you admit that, as it is,
the process is flaw ?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">The impact
for this is really big. Right now, we have 8 policy
proposals that didn't reached consensus and only
considering new proposal that I've in mind to submit (5),
it means that for the next meeting we will have *at least*
13 policy proposals in the table.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">...other
might also propose drafts for new policy proposals :'-(<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">I hope so, more people contributing, and
yes, that’s why I said “at least” :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">:-) but
please withdraw one of your two similar policy proposals
about out of AFRINIC region resource (IPv4) transfers.
That action could diminish the number of policy proposals
;-)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">Remember that I presented them jointly,
with the same time for two proposals, that for a single
one, so actually that’s not taking time. Anyway, if we
can have a “clear” decision in the list from now to the
next meeting, I’m happy to withdraw one of them, but
this is only going to work if we have 200 voices in the
list supporting one of those. Otherwise, I can withdraw
the wrong one and then in the meeting, the participants
decision withdraws the other one, so we have nothing.
You see the point? </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>...so you don't want to take the *risk* (i don't actualy see a
risk, though) ? :-)<br>
</p>
<p>__ <br>
</p>
<p>[1]: Thread about Impact Analysis - <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2019/009026.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2019/009026.html</a><br>
</p>
<p>[2]: PDP - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://afrinic.net/policy/manual#PDP-Process"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://afrinic.net/policy/manual#PDP-Process</a></p>
<p>[3]: PDP Chart 2011 - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://afrinic.net/ast/img/pdp_chart2011.png"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://afrinic.net/ast/img/pdp_chart2011.png</a><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Friendly,</p>
<p>--sb.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE5DC0B7-A9F5-4B13-B63D-8A872A222223@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Friendly,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">--sb.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">So either we
have a "2 days" policy day, or we find the way for every
participant to read in advance all the policies and
provide inputs, or it is impossible to be able to really
have a presentation that is making sense for the people to
determine their opinion in each policy proposal.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Jordi<br>
@jordipalet<br>
[...]</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Regards,
Sylvain B.
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.chretiennement.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><http://www.chretiennement.org></a>
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