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--></style></head><body lang=ES link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Arnaud, Owen,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>A short input about the ack section.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>While I agree that they should not be part of the policy text, if you look at both previous versions and the actual one, it looks like the authors are including that as part of the policy text when they send it to the staff/co-chair for publication, but when this is actually published, this part is moved out of the policy text and put in an explicit new section.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>By the way, the numbering of this section is broken in the publication, should be 4 instead of 5.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.afrinic.net/policy/2016-gen-001-d7#proposal"><span lang=EN-US>https://www.afrinic.net/policy/2016-gen-001-d7#proposal</span></a><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>When I do documents for IETF, I always have an ack section and I explictly cite there *<b>everyone</b>* who has contributed to that document (not just grammar or typos). Not everybody does that, however I think is fair to recognize all the people contributing, but not just *<b>some</b>* of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>That said, this is not a common practice in the PDP process, I’ve not seen that before in any RIR.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Not saying I’m against this, but if we do that, it should be for every contributor, and in every policy proposal, just to be fair.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 13/6/19 11:39, "Arnaud AMELINA" <<a href="mailto:amelnaud@gmail.com">amelnaud@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Hi Owen, see inline <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Le lun. 10 juin 2019 à 17:27, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>> a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On Jun 10, 2019, at 02:24 , Arnaud AMELINA <<a href="mailto:amelnaud@gmail.com" target="_blank">amelnaud@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen,<br><br>Thanks for the quick review and thanks for spending your time to review and comment on the unnecessary, duplicative, Ill-advised proposal.<br><br>We appreciate your comments and suggestions and will consider them.<br><br>Even though, there is no room for the acknowledgment session in the CPM, it remains a good way to acknowledge effort and contribution of people throughout the proposal lifecycle.Same remark applies to the authors who are not also listed in the CPM. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Yes, but move it out of the proposed policy section of the proposal.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Hmmm. <br>Why is this suddenly so important? it has been there since version 3.0 of the proposal.<br><br>Have you found another substantive objection? do you have an issue with those listed there or concerned for those not listed? <br><br>This objection will be addressed and accommodated. Section 4.0 will be removed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>We continue to disagree on definition of “community” and “ consensus” and I expect the PDP to be followed to determine the future of this proposal.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I expect the PDP to be followed, too. That is why I ask that the authors recognize the lack fo consensus and let it expire or withdraw it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>The community is the set of all natural persons who are interested in participating in the policy process and possess an email address which they can utilize for that purpose. Do you disagree with this definition?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>The disagreement on community came from your claim of “complete lack community consensus”. We have seen the opposite and wonder which “community” were you referring to.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>As to consensus, I am following the IETF definition of rough consensus wherein all remaining objections have been addressed and there is wide support within the community for the proposal.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>IETF consensus calls for all objections to be addressed and not necessary accommodated.<br>Consensus is a path and not a destination and looking at it as a destination takes you to the voting mentality which you are showing below by comparing number of "dissenters" to "supporters".<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Given that you have at least a roughly equal number of dissenters and supporters and that the number of dissenters seems to be growing rather than shrinking, I would argue that the authors have most definitely failed to achieve anything resembling rough consensus with this policy.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I know you as ARIN AC member, but not AFRINIC PDWG co-chair. Why are you trying to play co-chair? Co-chairs have been elected to lead the process including the consensus path.<br>Where did you get these numbers from? Are you counting those who are recruited to say “ I oppose with no new arguments”?<br>The IETF rough consensus clearly stated that objection or support is not based on volume or persistence. <br><br>Let assume a second that your numbers were correct. Can't you see that in the case of “rough equal numbers”, you can’t say “complete lack of community consensus” ? <br>At least, What one would expect in this kind of split situation, is that co-chairs facilitate the discussion for the concerns raised to be accommodated or reasons for not accommodating them explained further.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>If you feel that I am wrong about this, please explain what measure of “community” and what measure of “consensus” you are using. Perhaps you can educate me as to where my definitions do not match the PDP.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I hope the above clarify <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Arnaud<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br>Arnaud <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Le dim. 9 juin 2019 à 15:58, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank">owen@delong.com</a>> a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I have reviewed the diff and have the following comments. I limit my review and my comments to the scope of the proposed policy text. I have made no effort to address anything outside of the proposal itself other than to say that at least according to the Diff, the numbering of the non-policy sections got badly screwed up at the beginning.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>1.<span class=gmail-m8430196260645579531gmail-m4186325958573124471apple-tab-span> </span>It does not appear to address any of my previous objections.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>2.<span class=gmail-m8430196260645579531gmail-m4186325958573124471apple-tab-span> </span>13.3.1 should read “…have not been” rather than “…has not been”. (has would be for a singular, whereas the use her is plural)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>3.<span class=gmail-m8430196260645579531gmail-m4186325958573124471apple-tab-span> </span>While the structure in 13.3.2 is cleaned up, there is no material change to the proposal here.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>4.<span class=gmail-m8430196260645579531gmail-m4186325958573124471apple-tab-span> </span>13.3.3 retains all of its original problems as previously described by many, myself included.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>5.<span class=gmail-m8430196260645579531gmail-m4186325958573124471apple-tab-span> </span>Section 13.4 Line 51, I must ask how addresses can be found to be non-compliant. I suggest instead that the grammar be cleaned up as follows:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>AfriNIC shall initiate the resource recovery process to reclaim sufficient resources to restore resource holder to compliance.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>6.<span class=gmail-m8430196260645579531gmail-m4186325958573124471apple-tab-span> </span>13.4 in general is awkwardly structured and not in a logical order. Consequences defined at the beginning of the section fit better after the rules spelled out in A) and B), for example.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>7.<span class=gmail-m8430196260645579531gmail-m4186325958573124471apple-tab-span> </span>13.5 “Results on the review” should be “Results of the review”.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>8.<span class=gmail-m8430196260645579531gmail-m4186325958573124471apple-tab-span> </span>The acknowledgements are ill-conceived and have no place in the CPM. If the authors wish to acknowledge these people, they are free to do so wherever they wish, but said acknowledgement is not legitimate policy and has no place being inserted into the CPM.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>In summary, this update does nothing to address concerns previously expressed. It does appear to clean up some of the previous grammatical and syntactic errors, but it also introduces new ones. This proposal remains unnecessary, duplicative, harmful, and ill-advised. I again urge the authors to withdraw it based on the complete lack fo community consensus and their utter unwillingness to make changes that address the actual issues.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________<br>RPD mailing list<br><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br>**********************************************<br>
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