<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Thanks for the contributions, guys. Please can we try to leave
out the past failings and stick to the policy discussion proper?
Whenever we go back to past issues of failing to respond to email
and stuff, we take away from the current discussion; discussion is
happening and we thank the contributors for that. Let's stay
focused, please.</p>
<p>Dewole.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/31/2019 9:26 AM, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9260F1B8-416F-432A-9737-624C17947955@consulintel.es">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Times New Roman \(Cuerpo en alfa";
panose-1:2 2 6 3 5 4 5 2 3 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0cm;
margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-left:36.0pt;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.EstiloCorreo19
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
span.EstiloCorreo20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:70.85pt 3.0cm 70.85pt 3.0cm;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:1723362867;
mso-list-template-ids:-1152887720;}
@list l1
{mso-list-id:1890457299;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:1662914902 67764241 67764249 67764251 67764239 67764249 67764251 67764239 67764249 67764251;}
@list l1:level1
{mso-level-text:"%1\)";
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l1:level2
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l1:level3
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l1:level4
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l1:level5
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l1:level6
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l1:level7
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l1:level8
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l1:level9
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="ES-TRAD">Hi Komi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="ES-TRAD"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="ES-TRAD"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El 31/5/19
10:08, "Komi Elitcha" <<a
href="mailto:kmw.elitcha@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">kmw.elitcha@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Hello Jordi,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">You still
don't see the contradiction? Please review what you wrote.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">I did, and again, I don’t see the issue. I
will love if someone can clarify what I’m missing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">A non native
english speaker should go for an easy English and be less
pedantic.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">When you aren’t native, you tend to write
following the writing style for your own language. This is
not easy to avoid.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
lang="EN-US">There are many other non english speakers
like you, struggling over there to understand and
contribute. </span>This is another strong motivation for
a good moderation ( organise the discussions, make sure,
people use easy english, provide regular summary of
discussions...) so that everyone has the same understanding
and do not fall under individual interpretation of the
language....)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">This is asking too much from the chairs. They
can’t interpret each message and clarify to the rest of
the community in their own “writing styles”. Is simply
impossible. Even more this is not done in any other
region, neither in the IETF. Maximum chairs do in *<b>one</b>*
specific WG in IETF (v6ops), is, when there are several
documents under discussion, they send a *<b>single</b>*
message to the list asking the people to read and comment
about one document every week. I can tell you that even
that is not working, people read the documents if they
wish and when they can. No sense to change in the PDP
chairs functions for that, in my opinion is an impossible
micro-management.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">PDP key
principles: bottom-up, inclusiveness, openness and
transparency is well known and no moderation shall go
against them. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Moderation's
definition of PDP-BIS can be found in the PDP document
through chairs actions at each stage of proposal lifecycle,
and in the working group operation guidelines which
conforms to BCP25 definition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On your last
point, coauthors of PDP-BIS have answered all your
mails, including the November's one you referred to, even
those not all mails require response.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">This is not true, even before Dakar, there is
at least one message that was not responded, and what one
of the co-authors told me in the Dakar meeting was “I’m
not reading the mailing list”. This is something I can’t
expect from proposal authors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">HTH<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Komi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
Le 25 mai 2019 à 19:24, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a
href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>>
a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="ES-TRAD">Hi Arnaud,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="ES-TRAD"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">El
25/5/19 14:57, "Arnaud AMELINA" <<a
href="mailto:amelnaud@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">amelnaud@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">Hi
Jordi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">Le mer.
22 mai 2019 à 13:50, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a
href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>>
a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">Hi
Komi, all,<br>
<br>
<br>
Many got lost and confused easily in the
unmoderated flow of mails.<br>
<br>
Big disagreement here. A PDP, by definition is
an open and NOT MODERATED PROCESS AT ALL. It
must be dynamic, and if some people don't
participate, is not good, but that should not
preclude the moderation of those that actually
participate.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">Can
we be more serious in these discussions about
the PDP with less contradictions and
inconsistencies?<br>
What argument are you really making with the
statement above?<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">I don’t
see the contradiction here, unless I said
something broken, not being native English.
What I’m saying is that the PDP and the
corresponding list MUST NOT be moderated at
all. I will love everyone participating, and
that must be the goal. A more complex PDP
process doesn’t facilitate an increase of
participation. Whatever we do MUST NOT add
difficulties or complexities to those that
already participate, or we may lose them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><br>
PDP is not an IGF, but an open, transparent
decision making forum with a clear process.<br>
<br>
</span>The AFRINIC PDP uses a Working Group as
it is expected to study, discuss, design and
implement through policies, solutions for a
proper management of the INRs in the service
region.<br>
And such working group requires appropriate
moderation.<br>
<br>
Moderation of a working group mailing list
must be understood as defined in BCP25, section
6.1<br>
***<br>
Moderate the WG email list<br>
<br>
The Chair should attempt to ensure that the
discussions on the list are relevant and that
they converge to consensus agreements. The Chair
should make sure that discussions on the list
are summarized and that the outcome is well
documented (to avoid repetition). ...........<br>
***<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">[...]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">I’m
sorry but I disagree with the term
“moderation” used in BCP25 for the PDP.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">When you
say “moderation” *<b>unless</b>* you
explicitly CITE BCP25, section 6.1, 99% of the
community will understand a different thing. I
believe also that you aren’t reading correctly
BCP25 for two reasons:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo3"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">The IETF
process is only “on-list”.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo3"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">The IETF
usage of moderation is subjected to other
timing, possible virtual meetings, etc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">I agree
that the chairs should make sure that the
discussions are on topic and polite, and I
think that’s not what the people usually
understands as moderation. Moderate a list is
to allow each email to be sent or not to the
list, in the context that it was said by Komi
“</span><span lang="EN-US">Many got lost and
confused easily in the unmoderated flow of
mails</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-US">”.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><br>
Please, realize that if I send an email to a
given policy authors in November, it should
not be needed that I resend the email 6 months
after to get responses. </span>If you
volunteer to author a proposal, you commit to
advance it according to the community discussion
and respond timely to emails. This is not
necessarily true for community participants,
they can decide NOT to respond to authors
emails.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">[...]
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><br>
Of course, but both things are compatible. I
usually don't expect that a 1st version of a
policy proposal is right, but if you don't keep
improving it along new version, it will not
happen.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Please, lead this process to
conclusion.<br>
> <br>
> Thank you.<br>
> <br>
> On behalf of PDP-BIS Authors<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt">Arnaud
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may be
privileged or confidential. The information is intended to
be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of the contents of this information,
even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If
you are not the intended recipient be aware that any
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially, including attached
files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a
criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender
to inform about this communication and delete it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.theipv6company.com">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may be
privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
communication and delete it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>