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<p>I think there should be a policy that states that any Policy that
has not gone to last call (successfully unchallenged) and is older
than two years must be withdrawn after the next meeting from the
Policy Development Process and can only be brought back after two
years.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>This particular policy would be a great candidate!<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2019/05/12 23:42, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:C3D430C4-17F0-4081-951E-0B2BD9766C84@delong.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On May 12, 2019, at 12:30 , Benjamin Ledoh <<a
href="mailto:benjamin.ledoh@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">benjamin.ledoh@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Dear Community,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Marcus asked simple questions to Melvin. I
was expecting Melvin to respond but as usual, Owen
jumped with his blablabla. We all know that Owen has
no company in the Africa Region; he has no interest in
this policy and every time he is defend or support
policy that could destroy Afrinic. It is not a secret
that he hates Afrinic and now is on mission (for a pay
master -- I stand to be corrected). The less I say,
the better for this community.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
This is very very interesting…</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>It’s true that I’m no longer associated with a company that
has any operations in the AfriNIC region.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I agree with you that the less you say, the better for this
community.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>That’s pretty much where the truth of your statements ends.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I have tremendous interest in this policy for the good of the
region and the good of the internet, both of which stand to be
substantially harmed by the policy for the multiple reasons I
have previously outlined.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I have never defended or supported policy which I believed
could destroy AfriNIC. Indeed, I am opposing this policy because
I believe it would be harmful to AfriNIC.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I’m actually quite fond of AfriNIC and many of the people who
work there. I count much of the AfriNIC staff and many members
of the community as friends. I have no idea where you have come
up with this idea that I hate AfriNIC. I assure you that if I
hated AfriNIC, the easiest thing for me to do would be to turn a
blind eye to this policy and walk away allowing it to do the
damage it will surely do if it is adopted. Indeed, I think if
you review my history, you will find I do not spend anywhere
near this level of effort to try and improve things that I hate.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I also am not sure what you mean by “on a mission for a pay
master”. Nobody is paying me to do this. It is true that I have
received partial expense sponsorship to attend some AfriNIC
meetings from various sources. It is true that I have done other
consulting work for a variety of organizations that are AfriNIC
members. It is also true that no organization or employer has
ever been able to dictate the opinions I express in any public
policy forum. I’m quite certain that if you check with any of my
former employers, you’ll be easily able to confirm this fact.</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">The pathetic aspect in this is the
submission of Daniel. Brother Dan, in Yoruba, there is
a say: "You don't team up with opponents to vandalize
your family's property". To a wise, a word is enough.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
Are you accusing me of vandalism, sir? If so, I would like to
see you back up that claim with some evidence or facts.
Otherwise, it is an inappropriate ad hominem attack which is not
permitted by the list AUP. If not, please explain yourself more
clearly or make an appropriate apology.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">By the way, I am looking for sponsorship
to travel to Kampala to attend AIS. Can you be of
help? Can you direct me to any foundation? I hope you
will take it cool. (LOL)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
I am not sure if the Larus foundation is still taking
applications for Kampala or not. You could try there. I believe
AfriNIC also has a fellowship program, but I’m not sure when
their application period closes, either. I don’t know if there
are other foundations out there offering grants.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Owen</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Benjiloh</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, May 12, 2019
at 6:03 PM Daniel Yakmut via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div class="">Owen, </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Indeed you gave the point
blank solution to what I personally have been
advocating.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Cheers</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Daniel<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Sun, May 12, 2019,
6:14 PM Owen DeLong <<a
href="mailto:owen@delong.com"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">owen@delong.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"
class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On May 12, 2019, at 08:37
, Marcus K. G. Adomey <<a
href="mailto:madomey@hotmail.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">madomey@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div
style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"
class="">
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class="">Hi Melvin</p>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><b class=""><i class="">I
can see you suddenly<span
class=""> <span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>have
interests for the review
policy proposal. Please review<span
class=""> <span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>RPD<span
class=""> <span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>and
PPMs<span class=""> <span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>archives
as it is not<span class=""> <span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>productive
to replay old discussions.</i></b></p>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><b class=""><i class="">Please
could you provide answers to
the following questions<span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span></i></b></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class="">> This policy has a
lot of problems.</p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><i class=""><b class="">It
is not constructive in a
working group to just say
policy has a lot of problems
without listing the problems
you see. Please list all the
problems and propose texts to
address them?</b></i></p>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
It is not legitimate to insist that those
who feel your proposal is flawed must
provide text to address those problems.
However, let me propose text which would
solve all of the problems with this policy
so that it cannot be said that I did not
do so…</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Please replace the entire
proposal with the what is between the
BEGIN and END tags below. That will solve
all of the problems:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">—— BEGIN ——</div>
<div class="">—— END ——</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I think you must agree that
this text is very succinct and does not
create any new policy problems like the
current proposal.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">While it may not solve all of
the problems you intend with your current
problem statement, I believe it does, in
fact, solve all of the material defects of
this proposal and offers a vastly superior
policy alternative. (In other words:
current policy is a vastly superior policy
alternative to the current proposal).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div
style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"
class="">
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt" class="">>
The other is the potential of
end-users being disconnected due
to the review. I think we have to
bear in mind that, end-users have
no clue about the review.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><b class=""><i class="">Please
show which part of policy
proposal requires disconnecting
end users?<span class=""> <span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The
numbers are requested and
allocated to serve end-users and
I don't see how review will lead
to disconnecting these users.</i></b></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Marcus, are you truly so divorced from
reality that you do not understand that if
you successfully and effectively revoke
the resources of an ISP that by
definition, you have disconnected the
customers of said ISP that were using
those resources?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If not, then I can only assume
that you believe that any such revocation
will be without actual effect on the
internet. If you truly believe that, then
you believe that it is OK to render the
AfriNIC registration process meaningless
compared to operational practice and you
wish to create a separation between the
two. I realize that currently the two are
joined only through the voluntary
cooperation of ISPs, but I think it is
irresponsible at best to attempt to end
that cooperation.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Owen</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div
style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"
class="">
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class=""><br
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in
8pt;line-height:15.6933px;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
class="">Thanks</p>
<br class="">
</div>
<hr
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;display:inline-block;width:1449.41px"
class=""><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline"
class=""></span>
<div
id="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"
class=""><font style="font-size:11pt"
class="" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b
class="">From:</b><span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span>Melvin
Cheng <<a
href="mailto:melvinc0730@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">melvinc0730@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday,
May 11, 2019 9:15 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a><br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="gmail-m_-5536846077062982558m_-7235796690132523644Apple-converted-space"> </span>[rpd]
RPD : Prolicy proposal "Internet
Number Resources review by AFRINIC"
informations update</font>
<div class=""> </div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"
class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Hi</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">The
debate over this policy has been
for ages. I really think that if
an issue has been discussed over
and over again, there must be
something fundamentally wrong
about it. It’s quite obvious
that this proposal draws way
more controversy than the others
- its own existence in a way
seems to be a source of extreme
disputes among the community, as
we have seen in Tunisia. I was
in fact there myself. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">This
policy has a lot of problems.
Intrinsically, as a policy
itself, it is not well defined.
A lot of terms remain unclear.
For example, as Owen has also
pointed out earlier, the term
“annual meaningful report” is an
ambiguous term. What is a
“meaningful” report? To whom?
What are the factors? How is
“meaningful” defined? 100 people
can have 100 definitions of
“meaningful”. If the report is
deemed as something crucial to
this proposal, then the author
shall better define and address
it. Honestly speaking, although
this proposal has been
“re-proposed” over and over, I
do not see any improvements in
it. More precisely, I barely see
any changes made in the new
proposal when comparing to the
previous one. I would expect the
authors to make some adjustments
when so many issues have not
been addressed in previous
meetings before they posted them
again, even just as gesture of
their sincerity. You can’t just
post something that’s almost
identical by pretending your
audience were blind. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">On the
other hand, this policy is not
realistic at all. Afrinic does
not have the financial power to
conduct such a big quantity of
reviews within its regions. It’s
quiet easy to imagine that
because of this lack of
financial backup, reviews are
done unfairly and unjustly. For
example, some users are screened
while the others are not because
Afrinic runs out of money during
the process of review. This may,
at the worst, can lead to
Afrinic’s bankruptcy, which I am
sure none of us would wish that
to happen. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">The other
is the potential of end-users
being disconnected due to the
review. I think we have to bear
in mind that, end-users have no
clue about the review. However,
according to this proposal, if
an ISP is found to have violated
the rule (ie, inefficient
utilisation of resources), their
IPs will be taken back by
Afrinic and re-allocate to
others. End-user will lost
connectivity to the Internet
during this process even they
have no idea what is going on.
This is unfair to them. After
all, connectivity to the
Internet shall come as the
priority over any other things.
What this policy will bring is
quiet the opposite. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Having
said so much, I think my stand
is quite clear. This proposal is
not well drafted and the authors
haven’t well considered its
potential problems. It’s
impractical when considering
Afrinic’s current situation. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Let’s not
forget about this. if something
has been doubted by people over
and over again, there must be
something wrong about it. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Cheers </div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Melvin </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline"
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class="">
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
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href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br
class="">
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_______________________________________________<br
class="">
RPD mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br
class="">
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br
class="">
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mje@posix.co.za">mje@posix.co.za</a> Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://ftth.posix.co.za">https://ftth.posix.co.za</a>
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