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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/06/2018 12:04 AM, Chevalier du
Borg wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH5aO8dTsJYepT_yrXeRFEGiZZCSJ+=YuWzna5-S2qPHuh+sNA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Le mar. 5 juin 2018 à 18:11, Mike Burns <<a
href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mike@iptrading.com</a>>
a écrit :<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">“There’s nothing wrong with being a
broker” – Owen</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for that, Owen. <span
style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Emoji",sans-serif">😉</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">More to the point, there is nothing
wrong with a broker authoring policy.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree that it’s better to be open
about being a broker when authoring policy.</p>
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<div><br>
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<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Generally
speaking in other part of world "There is nothing bad with
being a broker". </div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">However
for Africa, there is EVERYTHING bad with being a broker. </div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">A
broker take away IPs from a continent that does not even
have enough to sell them for massive personal gain. That
is exploitation of this continent the way the colonialist
do before and some still continue to do with other natural
resource.</div>
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<br>
I thought Afrinic policy didn't allow that? Section 5.7 of
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://afrinic.net/en/library/policies/2195-consolidated-policy-manual-v11">https://afrinic.net/en/library/policies/2195-consolidated-policy-manual-v11</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH5aO8dTsJYepT_yrXeRFEGiZZCSJ+=YuWzna5-S2qPHuh+sNA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Brokers
are TOXIC to the trust in this community. Brokers are not
very different from the Arms Dealers sell weapons on the
many wars on both side we have experience (we will get out
profit, irrespective of the cost to Africa). They general
have no other interest in the development of this
continent.</div>
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<br>
I agree that there's some danger of "colonial" exploitation. <br>
<br>
I think it is possible to mitigate this risk, if we choose to. See
far below.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH5aO8dTsJYepT_yrXeRFEGiZZCSJ+=YuWzna5-S2qPHuh+sNA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">This
community is generally AGAINST idea of African IP being
used outside Africa for purpose that does not benefit
Africa. Brokers may want that. We do not</span><br
class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br>
In the case at hand, the proposal was to (further) limit the amount
of IPv4 address space an organization could receive from Afrinic. Is
there a connection to driving Afrinic-issued IPv4 addresses out of
Africa?<br>
<br>
It seems more likely to me that if Soft Landing-bis were to be
adopted, that a few large ISPs (and maybe content or cloud
providers) would find that they must bring addresses *into* Africa,
in order to continue serving the great many users who only have
IPv4. However, this is also not allowed by policy.<br>
<br>
<br>
Story time. <br>
Short version: I went from being the strongest opponent of a market
to being a general supporter.<br>
Long version: settle in with a cup of tea, this may take a while.<br>
<br>
Some years ago, I was on the ARIN Board, at a time when the transfer
market was proposed. I was adamantly opposed to it. I was offended
by the idea that people who got a public resource for free should be
able to exploit it for money. The Internet is a collaborative
network, where we have to work together for it to work at all;
therefore, I reasoned, if you had more addresses than you needed,
you should return them to the RIR. Some people did, and bathed in
the warm glow of righteousness.<br>
<br>
Further, I thought, the RIR has the right to reclaim unused
addresses. Other people thought differently, and while I thought the
RIR system had the weight of rightness on its side, I could see how
being right isn't necessarily enough: one has to be able to enforce
that rightness without crippling oneself.<br>
<br>
After years of debate, I grudgingly had to agree that it is much
more efficient to enable a process which allows local actors to
provide motivation for more efficient utilization. That is: the
people who run the networks (or don't run networks anymore but still
have addresses assigned) need some motivation to do the work to let
go of their addresses. People who need addresses can provide that
motivation. My objections to the creation of a market mostly boiled
down to, "It's unseemly."<br>
<br>
I was very worried about a speculator cornering the market. My math
said that US$500 million would effectively siphon off the supply
that we would see a disruption in the Internet, as networks needing
addresses had to raise prices (or lose stock value) to buy
addresses. So, like Afrinic, the ARIN policy required the recipient
to demonstrate that they needed the IPv4 addresses.<br>
<br>
A year or two later, I was faced with the prospect of deploying CGN
(NAT444). Many respected colleagues told me "NAT is Evil!" I knew
that not all cable modems and CPE supported IPv6 yet. So I needed to
know what broke, and I did some lab testing. I asked myself the
question, "If NAT is evil, and the address market is evil, and I
have to choose between them while I deploy IPv6, which one is more
evil?" Yes, I wanted to choose the lesser of two evils.<br>
<br>
How do you quantify evil? <br>
<br>
So I built a spreadsheet and wrote a paper describing how to
calculate the cost of CGN, the "TCO of CGN." My reasoning was that
if CGN broke X and Y, then some percentage of those customers would
cancel, and some would call tech support, and both of those things
cost money. Make guesses as to how many and what the cost is, and
you know how evil CGN is.<br>
<br>
You know what? It turned out that CGN was more expensive (with the
set of assumptions I used, which may not apply to your network) than
buying IPv4 addresses. Of course, there comes a price point where
IPv4 costs more than the lost revenue and support calls, and I think
we're nearing that point in places where the IPv4 market exists
(next 1-3 years).<br>
<br>
Because of that, it seems to me that there is a natural
back-pressure on the market, too. At some price point, it is more
cost effective to use IPv6 (with some transition mechanism) than to
buy IPv4 addresses. Is that a controversial opinion? <br>
<br>
Let's say you deploy IPv6, plus some transition mechanism, to 1,000
users. How many of them have something that breaks? How many of
those call tech support, costing you money, and how many of the
cancel their service, losing you money, and how much money? If so
many users cancel that you lose $15,000, that's still better than
spending $20,000 on IPv4 addresses. <br>
<br>
All the transfer market does is allow you to decide that it's going
to take you two years to deploy IPv6, and you need enough IPv4
addresses to last you two years.<br>
<br>
<br>
Returning to your point about addresses being sucked out of Africa,
which I think is critical to discuss. . .<br>
Would it be possible to pass a transfer policy that only allowed
addresses to come *into* Africa, and not go out?<br>
ARIN's transfer policy (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#eight3">https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#eight3</a>)
requires that for addresses to be transferred to another RIR, that
RIR have "<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,
helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline
!important; float: none;">reciprocal, compatible, needs-based
policies."</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">
As long as Afrinic requires a demonstration of need (as the current
policy does), the policy is compatible and needs-based. Is it
reciprocal? Probably not, at least in the way I think ARIN means it
(that addresses can trade both ways). Would it be possible to create
some reciprocity without being a net drain on African resources?<br>
<br>
I don't know. <br>
Afrinic could limit outbound transfers to less than inbound
transfers. "I'm sorry, we're at a slight trade deficit right now:
your /16 cannot be transferred to that U.S. company until another
/18 has been transferred into Africa."<br>
Afrinic could limit the size of transfers allowed out of region.
Most demand externally is for very large blocks. Maybe allow any
size transfer within the region, but nothing larger than /19
outbound.<br>
<br>
There are other possibilities, I'm sure. <br>
If we want to allow more local networks to motivate each other to be
more efficient with IPv4 utilization, but we have some major
concerns, then we should discuss how we might deal with those
concerns.<br>
<br>
Your ardent IPv6 evangelist,<br>
<br>
Lee<br>
<br>
<br>
This is only my opinion and my story, of course. <br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Borg le Chevalier<br>
___________________________________<br>
"Common sense is what tells us the world is flat" </div>
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