<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Andrew,</div><div><br></div><div>I almost missed this but a few commends in-line if you may......<br></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 3:39 PM, Andrew Alston <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.<wbr>com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I have a number of questions and some major objections (sorry, these aren’t minor ones!)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> </span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In my view, the type of objection, whether (major or minor) is more in its description, perhaps the level of impact and finally in how it is perceived by the working group. In all cases, both minor and major objections/issues are dealt with by the entire working group including the proponents/opposer IMHO.<br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0);background:rgb(238,238,238) none repeat scroll 0% 0%">The consensus process begins when somebody proposes a new policy while the discussion phase begins on the mailing list and continues during
the Public policy meetings.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0);background:rgb(238,238,238) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This doesn’t make much sense to me – how can the consensus process begin before any discussions have been held? This also implies very clearly that discussions on the mailing list form part of evaluation of consensus
– which I agree with – </span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>IMHO, a policy proposal has a life-cycle, that is, from its adoption as a work item by the working group during the (adoption-phase), until its ratification, through the “discussion phase”, the “review phase” and the “conclusion phase”. So the consensus process which is [<b>based on addressing objections</b>] starts with the discussion [ either to decide its adoption as the working group work item or directly on the proposal if adoption phase is not needed]. <br><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">what it does not say and where I have a problem – is that objections should carry between meetings.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If fundamental objections are raised at a meeting, and the policy does not pass, and those objections are not addressed at all, when the next meeting comes around – those objections must still be considered valid unless
either addressed or withdrawn – irrespective of if the objector is physically present at the next meeting or not. Objections cannot simply disappear because of a meeting happening (as seems to be the case at the moment)</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I believe objections can be raised anytime during the process, either on the mailing list or during the PPM. Only the draft proposals, i.e proposals which passed the discussion and review phases are scheduled for discussion at the PPM. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Section 3.4.3 and section 3.5.1.3[a-d] define how the final consensus is gauged during the PPM and proposals handled. <br><br><b>3.4.3 Reaching consensus</b><br>In the meeting, the Chair may ask for a show-of-hands, or other techniques, to gauge support for a policy proposal. The use of show-of-hands or other techniques is not a vote. It is a way of broadly measuring opinion and the Chair’s final decision takes many additional factors into account, including earlier discussions on the mailing list.<br><br><b>3.5.1.3 The Review Phase</b><br>a. At the end of the Review Phase, the policy proposal is presented at the next Public Policy meeting.<br>b. The PDWG Chair determines whether the working group has reached rough consensus. In the case the PDWG Chair decides that consensus has not been reached, then the PDWG Chair can send the draft proposal back to the Discussion Phase if the initiators are willing to make an improvement of their proposal and make the necessary changes according to the feedback received from the community.<br>c. A draft proposal sent back to discussion phase automatically loses its status as a draft proposal.<br>d. The PDWG Chair can also decide to have the draft proposal edited and start a new Review Phase with a new version of the proposal or otherwise the proposal shall be withdrawn.<br><br>As such, presence at the PPM is required to make your voice hard and your objections addressed.<br><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0);background:rgb(238,238,238) none repeat scroll 0% 0%">One or all initiators of a policy proposal have the option to remain anonymous. Hence, the PDWG Chair has the responsibility to act as the
document editor or set a call for a volunteer from the WG to act as a document editor on the policy proposal. A Document Editor is responsible for ensuring that the contents of the document accurately reflect the decisions that have been made by the working
group.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0);background:rgb(238,238,238) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0);background:rgb(238,238,238) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I have a _<i>MAJOR</i>_ objection to this point – if someone wishes to propose a policy that could have fundamental impact on individuals and corporates alike across the continent – then who proposed it MUST be recorded.
It is often very difficult to gauge intent of a policy proposal without a discussion with the author – and if the author is remaining anonymous – the intent of the proposal may never be truly understood. </span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>So, are you saying that, support to the intent of a policy proposal depends of your knowledge of the initiators intentions/thinking? is the problem statement not enough to explain the issues being addressed? Shall the working-group then add a section to the policy proposal template about “motivations” or “intentions” of the initiators? <br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This also creates a situation where the presentation
of the policy – which can often determine pass or fail of the policy is being done by someone who may not understand what was originally intended.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Furthermore – if a document is to be edited and still retain original intent – it is critical that the author be involved to guide that – else what was originally proposed and what may end up could be two entirely different
things (in which case the original policy is null and void and it requires a separate submission). </span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andrew, please don't forget that as specified in section 3.5.1.1, when a proposal is accepted by the working group, it becomes a community document IMHO. It is desirable that the initiators keep editing the document as it goes/changes but this is not mandatory…<br><br>3.5.1.1 The Adoption Phase<br>Once adopted by the working group, the initiator(s) grants all rights to the working group and the proposal becomes a community document. In all matters of intellectual property rights and procedures, the intention is to benefit the community and the public at large, while respecting the legitimate rights of others.<br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This clause also allows the chairs of the PDP to become policy editors – which is a fundamental conflict of interest. It is entirely untenable that those that
must gauge consensus are also involved in the editing (and hence authoring) of the policy – and flies in the face of proper governance.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I believe as a general practice, the co-chairs shall not play the role of document editors. This provision I believe was added as an option in case the working group lacks volunteers and is willing to accept the co-chairs to edit the document. I believe section 3.5 shall be rephrased to reflect this.<br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0)">If the suggested comments or modifications are not significant enough to require a new Discussion Phase, the PDWG Chair can decide to move the proposal to the next phase (Review
Phase) with a new version of the proposal incorporating the necessary changes.</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>This is problematic because it does not define what “significant enough” means – it is entirely ambiguous and lets the chair decide entirely what objections are significant or not – which is problematic
considering that what may be very significant to one members interests may be insignificant in the eyes of a chair that does not come from the same industry. The only way this works is if the process of determining significance is clearly defined</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Hold on, this is not about objections but I stand to be corrected. Objections are classified and dealt with at section 3.4. IMHO, It is more about moving a document [proposal] from discussion phase to review phase. Whether suggestions and amendments accepted at discussion phase require an extension of the discussion phase or not.<br></div><div><br></div><div>If some working group folks feel that they need the new version of the proposal and more time to parse, digest and discuss it, they should say so. Everyone has the right to appeal against co-chairs decision and section 3.9 define how to appeal at each phase.<br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0)">The appeal committee shall be comprised as follows:</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0)">- One (1) board member selected by the AFRINIC board of Directors for 1 year renewable</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0)">- One (1) Council of Elders (CoE) member selected by the COE for 1 year renewable </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0)">- The immediate Policy Development Working Group past co-chair for 1 year renewable</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Again -I have fundamental problems with this. The board is responsible for ratification of policy – this creates a direct conflict of interest and is untenable.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The CoE is an advisory committee with a specific mandate and role as per section 16 of the bylaws – and what is proposed here is outside of that mandate entirely.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The appeal committee here also lacks any form of actual community input and hence is again, untenable</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>But wait a minute, where is the conflict of interest for the board? as far as i am concerned, this appeal committee is responsible for handling appeal at discussion, review and concluding phases of proposals. Board acts at the ratification phase. Moreover, the appeal committee proposed was one (1) board member, NOT the entire BoD; one (1) CoE, NOT the full CoE. <br><br>IMNO, the BoD have processes to handle conflict of interest which may occurred for board member actively involved in policy proposals discussions on RPD or by serving in the appeal committee. <br><br>The intent here is to provide the appeal committee with skilled and experienced people who master AFRINIC business environment as well as its community ecosystem. Avoid selection through election which does not necessary guarantee quality and add unnecessary load to our election system. <br><br>Regarding the lack of community input, I'd say that all the folks to serve in this appeal committee have served or are serving in their position based on the community/members elected mandate. <br><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<span style="color:windowtext"></span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(255,102,0)">The appeal Committee shall be chaired by the CoE nominee and make decisions byIf unable to reach consensus, decisions
shall be made by majority of the members.</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>This sentence does not make sense- I suspect its just typos though. I have to say though that in a party of 3 – if you have consensus you have majority – so it’s a duplication in what it says.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I also think It's indeed a typo. The correct sentence should be: "The appeal Committee shall be chaired by the CoE nominee and make decision by consensus. If unable to reach consensus, decisions shall be made by majority of the members." <br></div><div><br></div><div>That being said, If we can't get the 3 to consent to the decision through the rough consensus approach defined in this PDP, a voting approach will be used and the majority decision would prevail.<br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I also pretty much second everything that Lee has said – though as I said – in the face of the glaring conflicts of interest found in this policy and the fact that an adhoc council with limited mandate
is being drafted into something way outside of the mandate – leaves me with no option but to strongly object.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think it's up to the authors themselves to provides a response and comment to Lee as well as I cat speak for them beyond my own opinions.<br></div><div><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-GB"><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193m_8230962650829873376WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p></div></div><br></blockquote></div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Cheers chief...</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">-- <br><div class="gmail-m_2727271074396060193gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><b>./noah</b></div></div></div>
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