<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 2, 2017, at 11:59 , Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On 2 Aug 2017 9:20 p.m., "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank" class="">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class=""><blockquote class="m_4248587688961634904quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><div class="m_4248587688961634904quoted-text"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 2, 2017, at 07:53 , Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_4248587688961634904m_-3670670134868907085Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Dear Afrinic Board Chair,</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">I almost missed this and I have quickly gone through it and I want to thank you for your effort ref: this Appeal Committee Terms of Reference, however, I have some questions section 2.?</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Seats 1 and 2: Two of the past chairs or past co-chairs of the AFRINIC policy development working group (PDWG).</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">+1 and in support of the selection of seat 1 and 2 as those make sense.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">For Seats 3 and 4: I wonder if other RIR's have provisions that require members from the AFRINIC region to seat in their appeal committees? </div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></div>Other RIRs have very different circumstances. As is often pointed out even when the circumstances in the AfriNIC region are not so different. However, in this case, they are quite different. No other RIR has such a degree of infighting nor such a large degree of mistrust among the factions around their policy proposals. Indeed, in the other regions, the factions on any given policy proposal are often quite different and you don’t find nearly identical groups clumping together in support or opposition of a proposal as you do in the AfriNIC region. Indeed, to the best of my knowledge, no other RIR has even such a review committee in the first place.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">That is your own opinion and as I wait the chairman of the board's response, I would like to point to you that the Afrinic numbering community has for years adopted so many policies.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">That is enough reason to inform you thay this numbering community is experienced enough to deal with even conflicts that may arise out of the PDP process.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>The factionalism in this community has been escalating for years and never before has it been at such a high degree as it is now. Indeed, the fact that this is the first time people have even noticed the lack of an appeals committee even though it was (theoretically) established by the PDP many years ago bolsters my point in this regard.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If an appeals committee is truly needed, then said committee must be truly independent and impartial in order to have credibility in their decision with both sides.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If the appeals committee is appointed entirely from within the region, unfortunately, any ruling they make will probably be regarded with mistrust and claims of unfair influence by the losing side.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="m_4248587688961634904quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class="">I don’t know the appeal process (if one exists) in RIPE, LACNIC, or APNIC, but in the ARIN region, the process is governed by what we call the petition process. If members of the community dislike a decision of the ARIN Advisory Council, they can petition that action on the mailing list. If enough other independent participants express support for the petition, </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Details are here: <a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/pdp_petitions.html" target="_blank" class="">https://www.arin.net/policy/pd<wbr class="">p_petitions.html</a></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">The Arin approach is very rational as it takes a community approach via the mailing-lists.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">We have seen such approaches also employed for years within our community ref:PDP and some policies have even failed to reach consensus nor get ratied by means of co-chair decisions. </div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Sure, some policies prevail, some do not. This is the nature of any legislative process.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The ARIN process works well in the ARIN region and the petition process has rarely even been invoked. I will point out that NEVER has any ARIN petition ever resulted in a policy which failed to gain consensus through the normal process becoming policy by the petition process. In fact, no petition has ever ultimately resulted in a different outcome from the original decision.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>However, in the AfriNIC region, I think this would be quite easily abused and could become a tyranny of the minority in that the threshold for petition in the ARIN region is quite low and the divided nature of the factions in AfriNIC would likely result in a constant series of escalating petitions with each faction prevailing in turns creating chaos in the actual policy process.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="m_4248587688961634904quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class=""><div class="m_4248587688961634904quoted-text"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">I fail to understand the rational around selecting 2 members from 2 different RIR's as if the AFRINIC community lacks people within our region who can fill up seats 3 and 4.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></div>I believe the intent is to create a greater degree of independence from the internal politics inherent in the AfriNIC region and to increase the transparency and fairness of the process. </div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Afrinic internal politics if they exist can be solved by the Afrinic community itself and this region is full of so many competent people from both the numbering and the names community that can independly seat on an Appeal committee and make rational decision.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">That Independence can be sought from millions of competent members within our region.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Trust begins from within so to speak.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I would love to see this be true. However, I think that the complete lack of decorum and the outrageous conduct of a minority in the most recent election process shows that while there are a great many skilled and competent people in the region, there is also a vocal minority out to disrupt the processes to such an extent that extraordinary measures are necessary to preserve order.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="m_4248587688961634904quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class="">I think this is a legitimate approach in this case because, frankly, I think that members from different RIRs are more likely to examine the issue purely on the record and the merits of the arguments without regard for the factionalism and politics involved. These are issues that simply either don’t exist or are a much much smaller problem in the other RIRs.</div><div class=""><div class="m_4248587688961634904quoted-text"><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">For Seat 5: A current or past chair or vice chair of the NRO NC/ASO AC, who is not from the AFRINIC region.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">What is the rational behind this? I mean the Afrinic board cant find, out of a continent with 1.2 billion people, one person from within the AFRINIC numbering or names community who can take up seat 5?.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></div>Again, I believe that the intent here is similar to the intent with seats 3 and 4. I consider this an entirely reasonable approach to maintaining the independence of the appeals committee and applaud the board’s wisdom and foresight in this matter.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Since this are your own opinions, I will tell you that there is nothing reasonable or wise here.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>And that is your opinion. I think it both reasonable and wise.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">How can we seek indepence outside of this region before we can even measure or test the effectivenes of own internal approach and independence within our own region.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I think you fail to understand the meaning of the word independence in this context if you can ask that question.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>In order for the appeals committee to remain truly independent of the internal conflicts within the region, they must come from outside.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>So far, no one has laid out an internal approach with independence. If you have a proposal to offer, let’s hear it… How do you make sure that members of the appeal committee appointed from within the region are truly independent of the factions involved in the proposal being appealed?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>In the case of the ARIN region, there’s no appeals committee… Just an open process involving members of the community. I have documented above how I believe this process would come to be abused and be dysfunctional if applied to the AfriNIC region, so IMHO, that’s a non-starter. If you’ve got a better actual proposal, let’s hear it.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""></div></body></html>