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Dear David,<br>
<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black; background-color:white">
I find your email rather strange if you can admit to selling/trading of IP Addresses.<br>
<br>
<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black; background-color:white">
At the current state of affairs, LIRs are not allowed to sell IP Addresses to their customers through sub-allocations and assignments.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black; background-color:white">
Afrinic intra transfer policy is even yet to be implemented and its rules are also very clear on how resources can be transferred.
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black; background-color:white">
Passing additional allocations evaluation (and we trust Afrinic staff for always doing their job) is super.
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black; background-color:white">
Equally passing a resource utilization review is also a requirement and desirable by serious LIR's willing to prove to their customer's base that their business is risk-free.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black; background-color:white">
You're concerned by the impact of the policy on other members and not on your own LIR's account? Fantastic!!!<br>
<br>
<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black; background-color:white">
The PDWG is open and they are free to express themselves, <br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black; background-color:white">
Your historical concerns about deregistration, threat of legal risks to Afrinic and opposition of the review policy dictate the contrary of what you claimed here.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black; background-color:white">
You clearly have a conflict of Interest in the discussions on this policy proposal and this must be taken into account.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Marcus<br>
<br>
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<br>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> David Hilario <d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 20, 2017 12:50:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dmurungi@techsupport.co.tz<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rpd List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Last Call for "AFPUB-2016-GEN-001-DRAFT-04 - Internet Number Resources Review by AFRINIC"</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt;">
<div class="PlainText">Hello Daniel,<br>
<br>
Thank you for showing interest in our services.<br>
<br>
If you have any questions, please feel free to direct them towards me<br>
or to our generic email.<br>
<br>
LIRs by definition are there to issue address space to their customers<br>
and services.<br>
Our operations are fully policy compliant, we have passed additional<br>
reviews for each additional allocations issued by AFRINIC.<br>
<br>
If you want more example of large allocations within AFRINIC you can<br>
also check, you can easily sort by date and unique ID per resource<br>
holder:<br>
<a href="ftp://ftp.afrinic.net/pub/stats/afrinic/delegated-afrinic-extended-latest">ftp://ftp.afrinic.net/pub/stats/afrinic/delegated-afrinic-extended-latest</a><br>
<br>
It will help you find more LIRs with large allocated pools, all of<br>
them having passed the rigorous AFRINIC verifications before being<br>
issued their allocations.<br>
<br>
Now, my opposition against the review policy is not for our own<br>
operations which you try to make it sound like.<br>
We already passed so many checks and verification from AFRINIC during<br>
each additional allocations that AFRINIC knows our network and<br>
operations inside out.<br>
So a review would be the least of our worries, and would in our case<br>
be pretty straight forward and simple.<br>
<br>
Secondly, why would we transfer away any of our space?<br>
We are running a network with our clients using these IP address,<br>
selling off IPs is only done when you are not needing your space<br>
anymore, basically your company is going bust or your business<br>
operations have changed.<br>
<br>
David Hilario<br>
<br>
IP Manager<br>
<br>
Larus Cloud Service Limited<br>
<br>
p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784<br>
f: +852 29888068<br>
a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR<br>
w: laruscloudservice.net<br>
e: d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net<br>
<br>
On 20 July 2017 at 14:12, Mwanguhya Daniel Murungi<br>
<dmurungi@techsupport.co.tz> wrote:<br>
> Hello,<br>
><br>
> I came across this various services offered by Larus cloud services amongst<br>
> them IPv4 sales/trading.<br>
><br>
> <a href="https://www.laruscloudservice.net/ip-delegation-service">https://www.laruscloudservice.net/ip-delegation-service</a><br>
><br>
> Below is an excerpt from the site;<br>
><br>
> ----------------------<br>
> [IP DELEGATION SERVICE]<br>
> LARUS has a mega pool of IPv4 addresses to provide unmatched IPv4 address<br>
> solutions in the world. IP addresses will be delegated to you directly from<br>
> Larus’s own IP pool. You will use the IP addresses like yours without<br>
> limitation on geography and usage. This is a flexible and speedy service to<br>
> meet your business needs.<br>
> ----------------------<br>
><br>
> Honestly, I wonder how much IPv4 space from the AFRINIC pool is owned by the<br>
> organization Larus Cloud Services?<br>
><br>
> I run a couple of whois queries and found the following:<br>
><br>
> (Organization) : whois -h whois.afrinic.net 'Larus Cloud Service'<br>
> ----------------------<br>
><br>
> organisation: ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC<br>
> org-name: Larus cloud service Limited<br>
> org-type: LIR<br>
> country: SC<br>
> address: C/o Abacus (Seychelles) Limited<br>
> address: Mont Fleuri, Mahe<br>
> phone: +359 897641784<br>
> phone: +852 2988 8918<br>
> admin-c: HL6-AFRINIC<br>
> tech-c: DH15-AFRINIC<br>
> mnt-ref: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br>
> mnt-ref: LCSL1-MNT<br>
> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> person: David Hilario<br>
> address: Ul. Zaychar 54 floor 3, Apartment 11<br>
> address: Sofia 1309<br>
> address: Bulgaria<br>
> phone: +359 897641784<br>
> nic-hdl: DH15-AFRINIC<br>
> mnt-by: mine<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> person: Heng LU<br>
> address: Ebene<br>
> address: MU<br>
> address: Mahe<br>
> address: Seychelles<br>
> phone: +248 4 610 795<br>
> nic-hdl: HL6-AFRINIC<br>
> mnt-by: HLU<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
> ----------------------<br>
><br>
> Below is a list of resources held by Larus;<br>
><br>
> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -T aut-num -T inet6num -T inetnum -i og<br>
> 'ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC'<br>
><br>
> ----------------------<br>
> inetnum: 196.251.244.0 - 196.251.247.255<br>
> netname: Larus-Cloud-v4<br>
> descr: Larus cloud service Limited<br>
> country: SC<br>
> org: ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC<br>
> admin-c: HL6-AFRINIC<br>
> tech-c: DH15-AFRINIC<br>
> status: ALLOCATED PA<br>
> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br>
> mnt-lower: LCSL1-MNT<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> person: David Hilario<br>
> address: Ul. Zaychar 54 floor 3, Apartment 11<br>
> address: Sofia 1309<br>
> address: Bulgaria<br>
> phone: +359 897641784<br>
> nic-hdl: DH15-AFRINIC<br>
> mnt-by: mine<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> person: Heng LU<br>
> address: Ebene<br>
> address: MU<br>
> address: Mahe<br>
> address: Seychelles<br>
> phone: +248 4 610 795<br>
> nic-hdl: HL6-AFRINIC<br>
> mnt-by: HLU<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> ----------------------<br>
><br>
> One of the sub-allocations/assignment from above Block (196.251.244.0/22) is<br>
> actually assigned to some Saudi Arabia entity as per below whois query.<br>
><br>
> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -M '196.251.244.0 - 196.251.247.255'<br>
><br>
> ----------------------<br>
> inetnum: 196.251.244.0 - 196.251.244.255<br>
> netname: SA-ITC-20120518<br>
> descr: Integrated Telecom Co. Ltd<br>
> country: SA<br>
> org: ORG-ITCL1-AFRINIC<br>
> admin-c: IR1052-AFRINIC<br>
> tech-c: IR1052-AFRINIC<br>
> status: ASSIGNED PA<br>
> mnt-by: LCSL1-MNT<br>
> mnt-routes: LCSL1-MNT<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> ----------------------<br>
><br>
> Larus Cloud Services has no ASN and IPv6<br>
><br>
> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -T aut-num -T inet6num -i og 'ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC'<br>
><br>
> Furthermore, I noticed that the domains laruscloudservice.net and<br>
> cloudinnovation.org have the same owner.<br>
><br>
> ----------------------<br>
> Domain Name: laruscloudservice.net<br>
> Registrant Name: Heng Lu<br>
> Registrant Organization: Larus Cloud Service Limited.<br>
> Registrant Street: 903 Dannies HSE<br>
> Registrant Street: 20 LUARD RD<br>
> Registrant City: WAN CHAI<br>
> Registrant State/Province: HONG KONG<br>
> Registrant Postal Code: 9741mh<br>
> Registrant Country: HK<br>
> Registrant Phone: +31.641734323<br>
> Registrant Phone Ext:<br>
> Registrant Fax:<br>
> Registrant Fax Ext:<br>
> Registrant Email: h.lu@outsideheaven.com<br>
><br>
><br>
> Domain Name: CLOUDINNOVATION.ORG<br>
> Registrant Name: Lu Heng<br>
> Registrant Organization: AnytimeChinese<br>
> Registrant Street: Esdoornlaan 656<br>
> Registrant City: Groningen<br>
> Registrant State/Province:<br>
> Registrant Postal Code: 9741MH<br>
> Registrant Country: NL<br>
> Registrant Phone: +31.641734323<br>
> Registrant Phone Ext:<br>
> Registrant Fax:<br>
> Registrant Fax Ext:<br>
> Registrant Email: er4tmx4khysehimnwr3s@l.o-w-o.info<br>
><br>
> ----------------------<br>
><br>
> Cloud innovation<br>
> ================<br>
><br>
> Cloud innovation and Larus Cloud share the same physical address and<br>
> contacts:<br>
><br>
> whois -h whois.afrinic.net 'CLOUD INNOVATION'<br>
><br>
> ----------------------<br>
> organisation: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br>
> org-name: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br>
> org-type: LIR<br>
> country: SC<br>
> address: C/o Abacus (Seychelles) Limited<br>
> address: Mont Fleuri, Mahe<br>
> address: Seychelles<br>
> address: Mahe<br>
> phone: +248 4 610 795<br>
> phone: +248 4 610 795<br>
> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> mnt-ref: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br>
> mnt-ref: CIL1-MNT<br>
> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
> person: OutsideHeaven Support<br>
> nic-hdl: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> address: Ebene<br>
> address: MU<br>
> address: Mahe<br>
> address: Seychelles<br>
> phone: +248 4 610 795<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
><br>
> person: OutsideHeaven Support<br>
> nic-hdl: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> address: Ebene<br>
> address: MU<br>
> address: Mahe<br>
> address: Seychelles<br>
> phone: +248 4 610 795<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> ----------------------<br>
><br>
> In fact, Cloud Innovation Ltd has 2x /11 and 2x /12 IPv4 address space<br>
> allocated to them:<br>
><br>
> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -r -T aut-num -T inet6num -T inetnum -i og<br>
> 'ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC'<br>
><br>
> inetnum: 154.192.0.0 - 154.223.255.255<br>
> netname: Cloud-Innovation-v4-II<br>
> descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br>
> country: SC<br>
> org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br>
> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> status: ALLOCATED PA<br>
> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br>
> mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> inetnum: 154.80.0.0 - 154.95.255.255<br>
> netname: Cloud-Innovation-v4-I<br>
> descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br>
> country: SC<br>
> org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br>
> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> status: ALLOCATED PA<br>
> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br>
> mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT<br>
> mnt-domains: CIL1-MNT<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
><br>
> inetnum: 156.224.0.0 - 156.255.255.255<br>
> netname: CloudInnovation-infrastructure<br>
> descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br>
> country: SC<br>
> org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br>
> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> status: ALLOCATED PA<br>
> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br>
> mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> inetnum: 45.192.0.0 - 45.207.255.255<br>
> netname: Cloud-Innovation-v4-I<br>
> descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br>
> country: SC<br>
> org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br>
> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br>
> status: ALLOCATED PA<br>
> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br>
> mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT<br>
> mnt-domains: CIL1-MNT<br>
> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br>
><br>
> Cloud Innovation Ltd just like Larus Cloud Services doesn't have any ASN and<br>
> IPv6 as an LIR with so much space.<br>
><br>
> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -T aut-num -T inet6num -i og 'ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC'<br>
><br>
> Could all the above explain the vehement opposition of the people listed as<br>
> contacts for both Larus Cloud Service and Cloud innovation [1]?<br>
><br>
> If so much IPv4 space/resources above was allocated to these LIR's for<br>
> legitimate purposes, it should not be a problem. They will pass review and<br>
> have ability to use the intra RIR transfer too.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Daniel<br>
><br>
> [1] Heng Lu and David Hilario<br>
><br>
> On 2017-07-19 22:55, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi Noah,<br>
><br>
> There have been over 5,000 policy-compliant global IPv4 sales since<br>
> 2010.<br>
><br>
> The concept is that the profit motive will incentivize those who hold<br>
> unused addresses make them available to sell them to somebody with a<br>
> need for them. This profit could be an incentive to renumber more<br>
> efficiently to free up blocks, or to provide some compensation for the<br>
> expense of that renumbering.<br>
><br>
> Without the profit motive, the only other motive is charity.<br>
><br>
> Charity has not proven to be effective in bringing unused addresses<br>
> back to those who need them, but a market has proven to be quite<br>
> effective. That said, I know that at least two /8 holders voluntarily<br>
> returned their blocks to ARIN years ago.<br>
><br>
> A RIPE study revealed that most address sales are of older legacy<br>
> blocks that have not appeared in the routing table for a long time.<br>
><br>
> This is evidence that the lure of profit has functioned more<br>
> effectively than any prior threat of revocation to move addresses from<br>
> a low- or no-use environment and into the hands of those who need them<br>
> to run operational networks.<br>
><br>
> In order to foster this market, other registries have removed the<br>
> threat of revocation for utilization from their policies and RSAs in<br>
> order to make it clear to prospective sellers that the registries will<br>
> act as partners to address-holders seeking to sell, and not as judges<br>
> or juries with the power of revocation.<br>
><br>
> Yes, it is quite a shock that formerly public resources are now<br>
> yielding windfalls for address holders, but the importance of creating<br>
> a market to fulfill the needs of those seeking address has been judged<br>
> to outweigh the queasiness we may feel when witnessing the enrichment<br>
> of address-holders who sell their blocks.<br>
><br>
> If the role of AFRINIC is to get blocks into the hands of those who<br>
> need them, and the free pool is dry, what is the best way to answer<br>
> that need? One way is to audit, revoke, and recover unutilized space.<br>
> The other way is to harness the profit motive to lift unutilized<br>
> addresses to their “highest and best” use.<br>
><br>
> ARIN, APNIC, and RIPE debated these two options and chose the market<br>
> route. I think 5,000 transfers is evidence that the correct decision<br>
> was taken.<br>
><br>
> LACNIC has also chosen to allow a market for IPv4 addresses to<br>
> develop, but unlike the other registries, LACNIC has not removed the<br>
> threat of revocation in its policies and RSA. A comparison in<br>
> transfer volume between the LACNIC region and the other regions<br>
> provides possible evidence that retaining the revocation threat is<br>
> detrimental to the market, as the volume in LACNIC is very, very low,<br>
> at 10 total transfers to date.<br>
><br>
> And surely you know that people will be buying and selling IPv4 in<br>
> Africa very soon:<br>
><br>
> <a href="https://www.afrinic.net/en/library/news/2085-afrinic-board-ratifies-policy-proposal-ipv4-resources-transfer-within-the-afrinic-region">
https://www.afrinic.net/en/library/news/2085-afrinic-board-ratifies-policy-proposal-ipv4-resources-transfer-within-the-afrinic-region</a><br>
><br>
> I have facilitated transfers to recipients in 60 countries, and soon<br>
> that will include African countries. I am proud to have helped get<br>
> address blocks into the hands of the buyers in these countries, and<br>
> there is nothing “so-called” about IP brokerage. It’s a new<br>
> world, Noah, perhaps you should be the one bracing yourself.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
> Mike Burns<br>
><br>
> IPTrading.com<br>
><br>
> FROM: Noah [<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz">mailto:noah@neo.co.tz</a>]<br>
> SENT: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:22 PM<br>
> TO: Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net><br>
> CC: rpd List <rpd@afrinic.net><br>
> SUBJECT: Re: [rpd] Last Call for "AFPUB-2016-GEN-001-DRAFT-04 -<br>
><br>
> Internet Number Resources Review by AFRINIC"<br>
><br>
> On Jun 26, 2017, at 8:37 PM, Lu Heng <h.lu@anytimechinese.com><br>
><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> This policy is in direct conflict with transfer policy, if someone<br>
><br>
> wants to sell their address space, they surely not commit to use it<br>
> with the original purpose, should AFRINIC instead of allowing them<br>
> to transfer the space, but reclaim them and redistribute them for<br>
> "better use"? If that is the case, the transfer policy will have no<br>
> use because of that.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Woow<br>
><br>
> So your worry is that someone will not be in a position to "sell" idle<br>
> IP address space through the transfer policy?<br>
><br>
> I always thought the fundamental premise was for INR's to be allocated<br>
> for use that can promote internet expansion rather than profit from<br>
> INR's.<br>
><br>
> On 12 Jul 2017 9:14 a.m., "Bill Woodcock" <woody@pch.net> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I would just like to point out that the AfriNIC community does not<br>
> exist to serve the financial interests of those who wish to sell<br>
> addresses, rather than use them.<br>
><br>
><br>
> + Bill<br>
><br>
> And whoever in their wildest thoughts think the community shall seat<br>
> back and see them trade IPv4 for any other reason beyond using them to<br>
> build infracture and extend internet related services in AFRICA should<br>
> brace themselves for now.<br>
><br>
> The AfriNIC community is the community of people who need IP<br>
> addresses, in order to route them and give people access to the<br>
> Internet.<br>
><br>
><br>
> +1 Bill<br>
><br>
> The AfriNIC policy process exists to serve those who wish to _use_<br>
> IP addresses, not those who wish to profit from them at the expense<br>
> of the community.<br>
><br>
><br>
> +1 Bill<br>
><br>
> Especially those who wish to profit from INR's especially the so<br>
> called IPv4 brokers. There is AFRINIC for goodness sake.<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
><br>
> Noah<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> RPD mailing list<br>
> RPD@afrinic.net<br>
> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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