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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">Dear Andrew,</div>
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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">Thank you for your eloquence and timely reply. You have provided a boatload of information that a large percentage of the community is not really aware of or have simply chosen to ignore. Honestly, a part of my brain just went 'poof'.</div>
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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">Kindly allow me to internalize and I will revert.</div>
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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">Regards,</div>
<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">Daniel</div>
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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">On 2017-07-20 15:41, Andrew Alston wrote:
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">Daniel, <br /> <br /> The problem here is deeper than what you see. <br /> <br /> Firstly, there is nothing in any policy that requires an LIR to have<br /> an ASN to announce said space. <br /> <br /> Secondly – there is nothing in any policy that states that IP<br /> addresses assigned to entity that is domiciled in the AFRINIC region<br /> must be utilized within the region – it simply isn’t there <br /> <br /> Thirdly – There is nothing in any policy that prohibits charging for<br /> IP space – and in fact this is extremely common practice in many<br /> African ISPs (You get X number of IP addresses with the link you<br /> purchase, or a dynamic IP, if you want more, or you want static IP<br /> addresses, you pay extra) <br /> <br /> Forth – One of the stated reasons that the LIR pricing from AFRINIC<br /> is so much higher than the end user pricing is that LIRs have the<br /> ability to recover the cost from the market – end users don’t. <br /> <br /> Fifth – the requirements in the policy says that you have to have<br /> infrastructure to utilize the space – the problem with this is there<br /> is no definition of infrastructure – if you are assigning space to<br /> other entities and are legitimately swipping the space to those<br /> entities – the infrastructure you yourself require is a system that<br /> tracks how the space is assigned and a system capable of communicating<br /> the swip updates to AFRINIC – nothing more. <br /> <br /> Now – let me state categorically – I oppose anyone charging for<br /> address space assigned by an RIR – if they have bought space on the<br /> secondary market and paid secondary market prices – then I can<br /> understand an attempt to regain the cost of said IP space – but<br /> beyond that – I have always taken the stance that ISP’s charging<br /> for space is a bad idea. I do not however oppose the secondary market<br /> in the event of space being unavailable from an RIR. I also do not<br /> dispute the requirements of needs based justification – though in an<br /> open secondary market it is my personal opinion that the need for this<br /> is reduced, since the economics involved will ensure adherence to<br /> needs base. <br /> <br /> However, what it comes down to is this – if a cloud services<br /> provider, or a broker, can justify space within the bounds of policy<br /> – then the issues we face with individuals getting large amounts of<br /> space and leasing it out to people around the world – are our fault<br /> – because we did not modify the allocation policies. We cannot<br /> blame those who use the policies as they are written and use the<br /> loopholes we choose to provide. We have to take responsibility for<br /> not tightening the policies – not attempt to create audit policies<br /> and revocation policies to revoke space that was legitimately assigned<br /> within the bounds of policy. <br /> <br /> Basically – what I am saying to this community is this – do not<br /> blame those who use the policies you yourself have passed – if you<br /> don’t like the policies – change them – and if you cannot get<br /> consensus on changing the policy then accept that the community does<br /> not agree this is a problem – that is what bottom up process is<br /> about. <br /> <br /> For example – I will oppose any geographic restriction on where<br /> space can be used until such time as someone comes up with a concrete<br /> way to define geographic usage of space – something that has been<br /> attempted many times over the last few years and has failed every<br /> time. <br /> <br /> Until such time as someone can concretely demonstrate that someone has<br /> been allocated space outside of allocation policies though – or is<br /> using them outside of the rules under which they are allocated –<br /> there is no cause to do anything – and auditing without evidence or<br /> without any concrete suspicion of violation of policy is simply not<br /> practical. The real issue here is – the policies allow the behavior<br /> you describe – like it or not – and this community has chosen not<br /> to change those policies despite this issue being raised consistently<br /> over the last 5 or 6 years. <br /> <br /> Andrew <br /> <br /> FROM: Mwanguhya Daniel Murungi <<a href="mailto:dmurungi@techsupport.co.tz">dmurungi@techsupport.co.tz</a>><br /> ORGANIZATION: Techsupport Limited<br /> REPLY-TO: "<a href="mailto:dmurungi@techsupport.co.tz">dmurungi@techsupport.co.tz</a>" <<a href="mailto:dmurungi@techsupport.co.tz">dmurungi@techsupport.co.tz</a>><br /> DATE: Thursday, 20 July 2017 at 19:12<br /> TO: Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>><br /> CC: 'rpd List' <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br /> SUBJECT: Re: [rpd] Last Call for "AFPUB-2016-GEN-001-DRAFT-04 -<br /> Internet Number Resources Review by AFRINIC" <br /> <br /> Hello,<br /> <br /> I came across this various services offered by Larus cloud services<br /> amongst them IPv4 sales/trading. <br /> <br /> <a href="https://www.laruscloudservice.net/ip-delegation-service" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.laruscloudservice.net/ip-delegation-service</a><br /> <br /> Below is an excerpt from the site;<br /> <br /> ----------------------<br /> [IP DELEGATION SERVICE]<br /> LARUS has a mega pool of IPv4 addresses to provide unmatched IPv4<br /> address solutions in the world. IP addresses will be delegated to you<br /> directly from Larus’s own IP pool. You will use the IP addresses<br /> like yours without limitation on geography and usage. This is a<br /> flexible and speedy service to meet your business needs.<br /> ----------------------<br /> <br /> Honestly, I wonder how much IPv4 space from the AFRINIC pool is owned<br /> by the organization Larus Cloud Services? <br /> <br /> I run a couple of whois queries and found the following:<br /> <br /> (Organization) : whois -h whois.afrinic.net 'Larus Cloud Service'<br /> ----------------------<br /> <br /> organisation: ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC<br /> org-name: Larus cloud service Limited<br /> org-type: LIR<br /> country: SC<br /> address: C/o Abacus (Seychelles) Limited<br /> address: Mont Fleuri, Mahe<br /> phone: +359 897641784<br /> phone: +852 2988 8918<br /> admin-c: HL6-AFRINIC<br /> tech-c: DH15-AFRINIC<br /> mnt-ref: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br /> mnt-ref: LCSL1-MNT<br /> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> person: David Hilario<br /> address: Ul. Zaychar 54 floor 3, Apartment 11<br /> address: Sofia 1309<br /> address: Bulgaria<br /> phone: +359 897641784<br /> nic-hdl: DH15-AFRINIC<br /> mnt-by: mine<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> person: Heng LU<br /> address: Ebene<br /> address: MU<br /> address: Mahe<br /> address: Seychelles<br /> phone: +248 4 610 795<br /> nic-hdl: HL6-AFRINIC<br /> mnt-by: HLU<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> ----------------------<br /> <br /> Below is a list of resources held by Larus;<br /> <br /> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -T aut-num -T inet6num -T inetnum -i og<br /> 'ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC'<br /> <br /> ----------------------<br /> inetnum: 196.251.244.0 - 196.251.247.255<br /> netname: Larus-Cloud-v4<br /> descr: Larus cloud service Limited<br /> country: SC<br /> org: ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC<br /> admin-c: HL6-AFRINIC<br /> tech-c: DH15-AFRINIC<br /> status: ALLOCATED PA<br /> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br /> mnt-lower: LCSL1-MNT<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> person: David Hilario<br /> address: Ul. Zaychar 54 floor 3, Apartment 11<br /> address: Sofia 1309<br /> address: Bulgaria<br /> phone: +359 897641784<br /> nic-hdl: DH15-AFRINIC<br /> mnt-by: mine<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> person: Heng LU<br /> address: Ebene<br /> address: MU<br /> address: Mahe<br /> address: Seychelles<br /> phone: +248 4 610 795<br /> nic-hdl: HL6-AFRINIC<br /> mnt-by: HLU<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> ----------------------<br /> <br /> One of the sub-allocations/assignment from above Block<br /> (196.251.244.0/22 [<a href="http://196.251.244.0/22" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">1</a>]) is actually assigned to some Saudi Arabia<br /> entity as per below whois query.<br /> <br /> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -M '196.251.244.0 - 196.251.247.255'<br /> <br /> ----------------------<br /> inetnum: 196.251.244.0 - 196.251.244.255<br /> netname: SA-ITC-20120518<br /> descr: Integrated Telecom Co. Ltd<br /> country: SA<br /> org: ORG-ITCL1-AFRINIC<br /> admin-c: IR1052-AFRINIC<br /> tech-c: IR1052-AFRINIC<br /> status: ASSIGNED PA<br /> mnt-by: LCSL1-MNT<br /> mnt-routes: LCSL1-MNT<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> ----------------------<br /> <br /> Larus Cloud Services has no ASN and IPv6<br /> <br /> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -T aut-num -T inet6num -i og<br /> 'ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC'<br /> <br /> Furthermore, I noticed that the domains laruscloudservice.net and<br /> cloudinnovation.org have the same owner.<br /> <br /> ----------------------<br /> Domain Name: laruscloudservice.net<br /> Registrant Name: Heng Lu<br /> Registrant Organization: Larus Cloud Service Limited.<br /> Registrant Street: 903 Dannies HSE<br /> Registrant Street: 20 LUARD RD<br /> Registrant City: WAN CHAI<br /> Registrant State/Province: HONG KONG<br /> Registrant Postal Code: 9741mh<br /> Registrant Country: HK<br /> Registrant Phone: +31.641734323<br /> Registrant Phone Ext:<br /> Registrant Fax:<br /> Registrant Fax Ext:<br /> Registrant Email: <a href="mailto:h.lu@outsideheaven.com">h.lu@outsideheaven.com</a><br /> <br /> Domain Name: CLOUDINNOVATION.ORG<br /> Registrant Name: Lu Heng<br /> Registrant Organization: AnytimeChinese<br /> Registrant Street: Esdoornlaan 656<br /> Registrant City: Groningen<br /> Registrant State/Province:<br /> Registrant Postal Code: 9741MH<br /> Registrant Country: NL<br /> Registrant Phone: +31.641734323<br /> Registrant Phone Ext:<br /> Registrant Fax:<br /> Registrant Fax Ext:<br /> Registrant Email: <a href="mailto:er4tmx4khysehimnwr3s@l.o-w-o.info">er4tmx4khysehimnwr3s@l.o-w-o.info</a><br /> <br /> ----------------------<br /> <br /> Cloud innovation<br /> ================<br /> <br /> Cloud innovation and Larus Cloud share the same physical address and<br /> contacts: <br /> <br /> whois -h whois.afrinic.net 'CLOUD INNOVATION'<br /> <br /> ----------------------<br /> organisation: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br /> org-name: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br /> org-type: LIR<br /> country: SC<br /> address: C/o Abacus (Seychelles) Limited<br /> address: Mont Fleuri, Mahe<br /> address: Seychelles<br /> address: Mahe<br /> phone: +248 4 610 795<br /> phone: +248 4 610 795<br /> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> mnt-ref: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br /> mnt-ref: CIL1-MNT<br /> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> person: OutsideHeaven Support<br /> nic-hdl: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> address: Ebene<br /> address: MU<br /> address: Mahe<br /> address: Seychelles<br /> phone: +248 4 610 795<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> person: OutsideHeaven Support<br /> nic-hdl: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> address: Ebene<br /> address: MU<br /> address: Mahe<br /> address: Seychelles<br /> phone: +248 4 610 795<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> ----------------------<br /> <br /> In fact, Cloud Innovation Ltd has 2x /11 and 2x /12 IPv4 address space<br /> allocated to them: <br /> <br /> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -r -T aut-num -T inet6num -T inetnum -i og<br /> 'ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC'<br /> <br /> inetnum: 154.192.0.0 - 154.223.255.255<br /> netname: Cloud-Innovation-v4-II<br /> descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br /> country: SC<br /> org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br /> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> status: ALLOCATED PA<br /> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br /> mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> inetnum: 154.80.0.0 - 154.95.255.255<br /> netname: Cloud-Innovation-v4-I<br /> descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br /> country: SC<br /> org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br /> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> status: ALLOCATED PA<br /> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br /> mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT<br /> mnt-domains: CIL1-MNT<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> inetnum: 156.224.0.0 - 156.255.255.255<br /> netname: CloudInnovation-infrastructure<br /> descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br /> country: SC<br /> org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br /> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> status: ALLOCATED PA<br /> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br /> mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> inetnum: 45.192.0.0 - 45.207.255.255<br /> netname: Cloud-Innovation-v4-I<br /> descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd<br /> country: SC<br /> org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC<br /> admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC<br /> status: ALLOCATED PA<br /> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT<br /> mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT<br /> mnt-domains: CIL1-MNT<br /> source: AFRINIC # Filtered<br /> <br /> Cloud Innovation Ltd just like Larus Cloud Services doesn't have any<br /> ASN and IPv6 as an LIR with so much space.<br /> <br /> whois -h whois.afrinic.net -T aut-num -T inet6num -i og<br /> 'ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC'<br /> <br /> Could all the above explain the vehement opposition of the people<br /> listed as contacts for both Larus Cloud Service and Cloud innovation<br /> [<a href="http://196.251.244.0/22" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">1</a>]?<br /> <br /> If so much IPv4 space/resources above was allocated to these LIR's for<br /> legitimate purposes, it should not be a problem. They will pass review<br /> and have ability to use the intra RIR transfer too. <br /> <br /> Regards,<br /> Daniel<br /> <br /> [<a href="http://196.251.244.0/22" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">1</a>] Heng Lu and David Hilario <br /> <br /> On 2017-07-19 22:55, Mike Burns wrote: <br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">Hi Noah,<br /> <br /> There have been over 5,000 policy-compliant global IPv4 sales since<br /> 2010.<br /> <br /> The concept is that the profit motive will incentivize those who<br /> hold<br /> unused addresses make them available to sell them to somebody with a<br /> need for them. This profit could be an incentive to renumber more<br /> efficiently to free up blocks, or to provide some compensation for<br /> the<br /> expense of that renumbering.<br /> <br /> Without the profit motive, the only other motive is charity.<br /> <br /> Charity has not proven to be effective in bringing unused addresses<br /> back to those who need them, but a market has proven to be quite<br /> effective. That said, I know that at least two /8 holders<br /> voluntarily<br /> returned their blocks to ARIN years ago.<br /> <br /> A RIPE study revealed that most address sales are of older legacy<br /> blocks that have not appeared in the routing table for a long time.<br /> <br /> This is evidence that the lure of profit has functioned more<br /> effectively than any prior threat of revocation to move addresses<br /> from<br /> a low- or no-use environment and into the hands of those who need<br /> them<br /> to run operational networks.<br /> <br /> In order to foster this market, other registries have removed the<br /> threat of revocation for utilization from their policies and RSAs in<br /> order to make it clear to prospective sellers that the registries<br /> will<br /> act as partners to address-holders seeking to sell, and not as<br /> judges<br /> or juries with the power of revocation.<br /> <br /> Yes, it is quite a shock that formerly public resources are now<br /> yielding windfalls for address holders, but the importance of<br /> creating<br /> a market to fulfill the needs of those seeking address has been<br /> judged<br /> to outweigh the queasiness we may feel when witnessing the<br /> enrichment<br /> of address-holders who sell their blocks.<br /> <br /> If the role of AFRINIC is to get blocks into the hands of those who<br /> need them, and the free pool is dry, what is the best way to answer<br /> that need? One way is to audit, revoke, and recover unutilized<br /> space.<br /> The other way is to harness the profit motive to lift unutilized<br /> addresses to their “highest and best” use.<br /> <br /> ARIN, APNIC, and RIPE debated these two options and chose the market<br /> route. I think 5,000 transfers is evidence that the correct decision<br /> was taken.<br /> <br /> LACNIC has also chosen to allow a market for IPv4 addresses to<br /> develop, but unlike the other registries, LACNIC has not removed the<br /> threat of revocation in its policies and RSA. A comparison in<br /> transfer volume between the LACNIC region and the other regions<br /> provides possible evidence that retaining the revocation threat is<br /> detrimental to the market, as the volume in LACNIC is very, very<br /> low,<br /> at 10 total transfers to date.<br /> <br /> And surely you know that people will be buying and selling IPv4 in<br /> Africa very soon:<br /> <br /> </blockquote>
<a href="https://www.afrinic.net/en/library/news/2085-afrinic-board-ratifies-policy-proposal-ipv4-resources-transfer-within-the-afrinic-region" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.afrinic.net/en/library/news/2085-afrinic-board-ratifies-policy-proposal-ipv4-resources-transfer-within-the-afrinic-region</a>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><br /> I have facilitated transfers to recipients in 60 countries, and soon<br /> that will include African countries. I am proud to have helped get<br /> address blocks into the hands of the buyers in these countries, and<br /> there is nothing “so-called” about IP brokerage. It’s a new<br /> world, Noah, perhaps you should be the one bracing yourself.<br /> <br /> Regards,<br /> <br /> Mike Burns<br /> <br /> IPTrading.com<br /> <br /> FROM: Noah [mailto:<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz">noah@neo.co.tz</a>]<br /> SENT: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:22 PM<br /> TO: Bill Woodcock <<a href="mailto:woody@pch.net">woody@pch.net</a>><br /> CC: rpd List <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br /> SUBJECT: Re: [rpd] Last Call for "AFPUB-2016-GEN-001-DRAFT-04 -<br /> Internet Number Resources Review by AFRINIC"<br /> <br /> On Jun 26, 2017, at 8:37 PM, Lu Heng <<a href="mailto:h.lu@anytimechinese.com">h.lu@anytimechinese.com</a>><br /> <br /> wrote:<br /> <br /> This policy is in direct conflict with transfer policy, if someone<br /> <br /> wants to sell their address space, they surely not commit to use it<br /> with the original purpose, should AFRINIC instead of allowing them<br /> to transfer the space, but reclaim them and redistribute them for<br /> "better use"? If that is the case, the transfer policy will have no<br /> use because of that.</blockquote>
<br /> Woow<br /> <br /> So your worry is that someone will not be in a position to "sell" idle<br /> IP address space through the transfer policy?<br /> <br /> I always thought the fundamental premise was for INR's to be allocated<br /> for use that can promote internet expansion rather than profit from<br /> INR's.<br /> <br /> On 12 Jul 2017 9:14 a.m., "Bill Woodcock" <<a href="mailto:woody@pch.net">woody@pch.net</a>> wrote:<br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">I would just like to point out that the AfriNIC community does not<br /> exist to serve the financial interests of those who wish to sell<br /> addresses, rather than use them.</blockquote>
<br /> + Bill <br /> <br /> And whoever in their wildest thoughts think the community shall seat<br /> back and see them trade IPv4 for any other reason beyond using them to<br /> build infracture and extend internet related services in AFRICA should<br /> brace themselves for now.<br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">The AfriNIC community is the community of people who need IP<br /> addresses, in order to route them and give people access to the<br /> Internet.</blockquote>
<br /> +1 Bill<br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">The AfriNIC policy process exists to serve those who wish to _use_<br /> IP addresses, not those who wish to profit from them at the expense<br /> of the community.</blockquote>
<br /> +1 Bill<br /> <br /> Especially those who wish to profit from INR's especially the so<br /> called IPv4 brokers. There is AFRINIC for goodness sake.<br /> <br /> Cheers,<br /> <br /> Noah<br /> _______________________________________________<br /> RPD mailing list<br /> <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br /> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a> <br /> <br /> Links:<br /> ------<br /> [1] <a href="http://196.251.244.0/22" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://196.251.244.0/22</a></blockquote>
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