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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18/04/2017 15:33, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADu9Aejh4TcB_zqMZS2ihn9xE-aO+ZWYD7S29SKjGySmgCgTGg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Dear Mr.Mark Elkins,
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif">In south
Africa if government shuts yes it shall not succeed as our
politics also different and we big economy which internet
is also spread from telkom to other many isp.</span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I hope a call by government in South Africa to shut down the
Internet would fail (or simply never happen), but if someone
physically holds an AK47 to my head - then I'll quickly comply, in
the hope I can reverse the situation later. If I learn that this
happens to someone else in another country - I would not blame or go
after the guys managing the Internet, but the people holding the
guns.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADu9Aejh4TcB_zqMZS2ihn9xE-aO+ZWYD7S29SKjGySmgCgTGg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">But the ideas of your email is maybe true buy
the look like predictions.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Did the Afrinic ever ever not get paid by its
customers of IPv4 address because they did not have the
money to pay for the next year because of the internet
shuts?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't completely understand your question.<br>
In the past, AFRINIC customers have failed to pay. I was a board
member for six years and, like other board members, at times
assisted AFRINIC staff in trying to contact delinquent members to
get them to pay. My understanding is if they did not pay, their
resources were reclaimed. This has nothing to do with any Internet
shutdown.<br>
<br>
Several ISP's in North Africa had issues after the Arab Spring
though - business failed - etc.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADu9Aejh4TcB_zqMZS2ihn9xE-aO+ZWYD7S29SKjGySmgCgTGg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Does the Afrinic have such report from the
customer who was blocked before.?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I was told this was the procedure.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADu9Aejh4TcB_zqMZS2ihn9xE-aO+ZWYD7S29SKjGySmgCgTGg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">If our Afrinic is worry about loosing payment
from ISP which didnt do business due to internet cuts after
1 year then the Afrinic is very harsh and not understanding.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
None of this (reclaiming IP resources) has anything to do with
Internet cuts. AFRINIC runs a business. If AFRINIC is not paid - bad
things may happen that may effect every other African country. We
looked close to this a few years back.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADu9Aejh4TcB_zqMZS2ihn9xE-aO+ZWYD7S29SKjGySmgCgTGg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">I am sure the Afrinic also not getting payment
from some of the member customers who delay to pay because
of other reasons.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes - for example the budget cycle in some countries didn't match
the beginning of the year (AFRINIC's cycle) and a fellow AFRINIC
director who worked for a university had this problem year after
year. The resources were never reclaimed but his universities
payments were always something like 3 months late.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADu9Aejh4TcB_zqMZS2ihn9xE-aO+ZWYD7S29SKjGySmgCgTGg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">This is political issue and shall be resolved
through dialog politically and government is only shutting
because of political threat the internet pose to it not the
Afrinic refusal to give the IP address in future because
they will say same IP is what we shutdown so we dont need
it.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
For some reason, dialogue always works better when you hold a stick
in your hand. That doesn't mean you actually have to use the stick.
Its mere presence can have a persuading effect.<br>
<br>
As a sometimes naughty boy, when my mother held a stick and said
"time for bed", I would lightly comply immediately, unlike when
there was no stick. The stick was never otherwise used.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADu9Aejh4TcB_zqMZS2ihn9xE-aO+ZWYD7S29SKjGySmgCgTGg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Maybe you have to ask why government will do
it if indeed there is any loose to them.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Do you know how much sactions the UN put on
some countries and nothing change as political problem is
solved by the people through dialog eventually.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
South Africa changed from apartheid to what we have now. Sanctions
were certainly part of the tools used.<br>
<br>
North Korea has been sanctioned - the USA have shown them some
sticks, I'm hoping sanity will prevail.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADu9Aejh4TcB_zqMZS2ihn9xE-aO+ZWYD7S29SKjGySmgCgTGg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Why we want the Afrinic to create rules which
will never works in real life? <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Why do you think they won't work?<br>
Its never been tried before.<br>
The other RIR's are watching us and may copy us.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADu9Aejh4TcB_zqMZS2ihn9xE-aO+ZWYD7S29SKjGySmgCgTGg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">Best
Regards,<br>
<br>
Tutu Ngcaba<br>
Kwazulu Techno Hubs<br>
South Africa<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 18 Apr 2017 3:44 p.m., "Mark Elkins"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mje@posix.co.za"
target="_blank">mje@posix.co.za</a>> wrote:<br
type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 17/04/2017 20:06, Adnan RIHAN wrote:<br>
> Hello brothers,<br>
><br>
> I’m just a young Congolese (BZV) citizen, and here is
my own thoughts<br>
> about this policy and your reactions. I’m a new ML
member and this is<br>
> my first email to any afrinic’s ML.<br>
<br>
Welcome to the list. Please note, I'm going to disagree with
your<br>
thought on this. Please don't be offended or stop posting in
the future.<br>
I'm glad you have viewed your opinion because I believe many
others -<br>
including Governments - share it with you. I also assume
that you<br>
wouldn't mind if there was a solution to the problem of
Internet<br>
disconnections.<br>
<br>
> Some of us live in more or less free countries, others
under hidden<br>
> dictatorships, and the rest of us in locked-down
countries.<br>
<br>
True. I think I live in a more or less free country.
Switching off the<br>
Internet in South Africa wouldn't be as simple as perhaps
others. We<br>
have multiple undersea cables and cables that cross boarders
all over. A<br>
number of people also have Satellite connections. We have a
large number<br>
of providers and much of our content is local. An Internet
shutdown<br>
would indeed be a catastrophe, the countries economy would
almost<br>
certainly slow down considerably.<br>
<br>
> This policy started from an idea, good or bad, based on
the fact that<br>
> Internet is sometimes shutdown in some countries, for
good or bad<br>
> reasons. Unfortunately, AFRINIC has NO POWER AT ALL on
any<br>
> governments, so we are trying to find a leverage.<br>
<br>
This is not quite true (AFRINIC has no power).<br>
<br>
There are many organisations that want to see Internet
Access for all,<br>
such as ISOC. AFRINIC also falls within this category. This
is part of<br>
AFRINIC's vision.<br>
<br>
Unlike a number of these organisations, AFRINIC actually
does have<br>
power. All machines connected to the Internet need unique
identifiers -<br>
that is, IP addresses. If its IPv4 - it could be behind NAT,
but<br>
somewhere along the line - something has to have a unique
address. For<br>
IPv6 - there is no NAT - so every machine numbered with IPv6
is unique.<br>
(I'm ignoring things like AnyCast - to keep this discussion
simple).<br>
<br>
What do you think happens when someone who is a customer of
an RIR stops<br>
paying the RIR for their services? The Address space is
reclaimed. The<br>
RIR can examine the Routing Tables and if the address space
is still<br>
being advertised - they can ask a suitable upstream service
provider (or<br>
two) to stop accepting the routes - so the Address space is
no longer<br>
seen. That organisation is then effectively cut off from
using the Internet.<br>
<br>
This is what AFRINIC can do.<br>
<br>
Perhaps with this (completely plausible) threat hanging over
people that<br>
want to block Internet to other people - they will think
twice before<br>
doing so - because there can be consequences. Perhaps, up
until now,<br>
they are thinking like you, that no one can cut them off?
You should<br>
rather be telling people, indeed, AFRINC could cut you off.<br>
<br>
> Like Tutu said, there is almost nothing we (as
AFRINIC’s community)<br>
> can do about it without collateral damages on citizens.<br>
<br>
If the citizens are already being cut off - what further
damage would be<br>
done? Others might actually say "Hey, you are cutting off
that<br>
population group - then we will happily join them" ?<br>
<br>
> Considering<br>
> the fact that this Policy would be dangerous for
citizens and nearly<br>
> useless against governments, we should start a thread
somewhere else<br>
> to continue finding ideas.<br>
<br>
I hope you see that this is not necessarily correct.<br>
<br>
> Unfortunately, only citizens of a country have the
power to change<br>
> things, legally and peacefully. Such citizens could
organize a sit in<br>
> (if it’s legal) in front of gov’s offices, write mass
letters, do a<br>
> peaceful walk or even create a local protesting group
associating<br>
> medias. Anyways,<br>
<br>
That is certainly one method to do this. Use public opinion
to get a<br>
change to happen. It doesn't seem to have worked in the
Cameroon yet.<br>
<br>
> it won’t be AFRINIC’s business.<br>
<br>
...it could be AFRINIC's business policy - ugly as it is.<br>
<br>
<br>
> --<br>
> Regards, Adnan RIHAN<br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mje@posix.co.za">mje@posix.co.za</a>
Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B27.128070590" value="+27128070590">+27.128070590</a>
Cell: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B27.826010496"
value="+27826010496">+27.826010496</a><br>
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://ftth.posix.co.za"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://ftth.posix.co.za</a><br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mje@posix.co.za">mje@posix.co.za</a> Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://ftth.posix.co.za">https://ftth.posix.co.za</a>
</pre>
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