<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica}
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math"}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:"Segoe UI"}
@font-face
{font-family:inherit}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{margin-right:0in;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif}
span.EmailStyle18
{font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D}
.MsoChpDefault
{font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif}
@page WordSection1
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in}
div.WordSection1
{}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>While I agree it's not AFRINC's place to get involved with administering "Internet shutdowns" and possibly more up to local regulations:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://www.accessnow.org/laws-let-internet-shutdowns-happen">https://www.accessnow.org/laws-let-internet-shutdowns-happen</a>/</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is a reality we all face and possibly a point to add to the agenda for AIS? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="composer_signature">
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:85%; color:#575757">Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: bram.fudzulani@angledimension.com </div>
<div>Date: 2017/04/13 09:07 (GMT+02:00) </div>
<div>To: 'Seun Ojedeji' <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com>, 'rpd' <rpd@afrinic.net> </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [rpd] New Policy Proposal - "Anti-Shutdown (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01)"
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">+1 Seun,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">This policy would be like the U.S.A bombed Syria because Syria bombed Syria. To teach Syria to not bomb Syria.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#767171">B</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#767171">ram Fudzulani
<b>|</b> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#385623"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#385623">*********************************************************************</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#385623"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Seun Ojedeji [mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> rpd <rpd@afrinic.net><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] New Policy Proposal - "Anti-Shutdown (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01)"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello again,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have been following this thread but I think I may have been saying things a little lightly so let me be a little bit frank here. I wonder what "balance"(as Kris puts it) we are looking for as this isn't just a policy that should pass
in any manner or form! We are here talking about internet shutdown implications (like Tamon indicated), is anyone really considering implications for AFRINIC as an organisation, yeah you heard me right.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Imagine this policy passes and then it gets implemented in say Mauritius, ofcourse AFRINIC will loose her welcome by default (or you think govt that has the gut to shutdown internet will not retaliate). So we then move to another country
which could also have shutdowns as well. I have no idea why we think we can discipline or get govt to behave with an RIR policy like the one being proposed. It's just a fantasy at best; "who made us</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">lords over the govt" comes to mind easily. What resources do we have to see implementation of this proposal through? Go with this policy and try to implement it, then you will know AU can unite on certain issues. AFRINIC should then probably
start looking for a home outside the region ;-)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We are here claiming that by withdrawing/banning IP resource from govt entities will put them off the internet, well maybe temporarily but I can assure you that one of those ISP that may add +1 to this policy (including authors) will provide
a solution to the govt, just that it will be a solution that further breaks the internet (most likely NATing), so what will we have achieved in the long run? Well I already listed some of them in my previous post. One thing I did not add is that we would have
significantly severed whatever little relationships with various government and her establishments that AFRINIC currently has.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Going forward I do not feel what we are even discussing here should continue as we seem to be giving ITU folks more exhibit to convince govt to look for other alternatives elsewhere (anyone who can recount happenings within ICANN in the
last few years will know why this is a bad idea) so I would highly recommend a withdrawal of this policy. However the substance of the policy which is the shutdown should be an agenda item to discuss at upcoming AIS. The following question comes to mind:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What more role can AFRINIC play in fighting against internet shutdowns (such role should !=policy)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Apr 13, 2017 5:51 AM, "Kris Seeburn" <<a href="mailto:seeburn.k@gmail.com">seeburn.k@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Badru </p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks I have to say I agree with you. As pointed before I appreciate the thought and the feeling that something needs to be done but I am not in personal favor of the actions presented in the policy. </p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">We should be able to find alternatives to how we look at this but if you look at my views I am not encouraging the actions proposed but t sure we need to find a way of balance somewhere in between. </p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">That's my take on the situation or policy presented. I am for the thinking that has gone in but am not quite totally for the section which proposes hard actions. I fell we can as community find something that tackles the situation but in
a more hard but gentlemen way that does not put afrinic as a policing position.</p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">All I* are working towards freedom and net neutrality as an outset. So am sure we can find and fix the actions and be open minded to our decisions.</p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="m_4163903779809082484AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">So again am partly in support go the policy more so to the ideology but the actions proposed does not help anyone long term. But am sure the community will strike a good balance.<br>
<br>
Kris</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 13 Apr 2017, at 00:36, Badru Ntege <<a href="mailto:badru.ntege@nftconsult.com" target="_blank">badru.ntege@nftconsult.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Kris</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 4/12/17, 8:52 PM, "Kris Seeburn" <<a href="mailto:seeburn.k@gmail.com" target="_blank">seeburn.k@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<blockquote id="m_4163903779809082484MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style="border:none; border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We should not also forget Egypt at what happened their. As much as we hide our faces these will never get sorted by there ownself. I am not saying that we need to act so forcibly but something that puts government on guard and respect people
rights.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To some people and many who lost their loved ones in Egypt the same government is still in power wearing a different hat. So if a policy like the one being proposed were passed and some voices wanted AfriNIC to trigger clause 13.1. How
would this play out. ???</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We need to be very cautious. I know many might even be offended by the above paragraph which is the exact point about subjectivity.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We had a shutdown in Uganda during the last elections and the security organs have a mountain of what one could call subjective evidence to justify what they did. I cannot judge either way but in their position with the evidence and knowledge
they had at the time they thought they were doing the right thing and still defend that position. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I know for sure the same is going to happen in a number of other countries whether or not we have a policy in place.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are allot more important things that Afrinic should be worrying about. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m sure there is some policy at the UN or AU we can send this policy text to </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<blockquote id="m_4163903779809082484MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style="border:none; border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Apr 12, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Arsène Tungali <<a href="mailto:arsenebaguma@gmail.com" target="_blank">arsenebaguma@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">After all no government would want to be told that they are offline because some "Company Ltd" based somewhere in the middle of the Indian Ocean has switched them off (no offence Kris, to the Star and Key of the Indian Ocean... just wearing
the hat of some typical African dictator :-).<br>
<br>
This section is worth some thinking on a longer run! Thanks Walu!<br>
<br>
-----------------<br>
Arsène Tungali,<br>
@arsenebaguma<br>
<a href="tel:+243%20993%20810%20967" target="_blank">+243 993810967</a><br>
GPG: 523644A0<br>
Goma, Democratic Republic of Congo<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone (excuse typos)<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">On Apr 12, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Walubengo J <<a href="mailto:jwalu@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jwalu@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
After all no government would want to be told that they are offline because some "Company Ltd" based somewhere in the middle of the Indian Ocean has switched them off (no offence Kris, to the Star and Key of the Indian Ocean... just wearing the hat of some
typical African dictator :-).</p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Kris Seeburn</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a href="mailto:seeburn.k@gmail.com" target="_blank">seeburn.k@gmail.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc" style="margin-top:0in; outline:0px; display:table-cell">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#333333; line-height:14.4pt; vertical-align:top; outline:0px; font-style:inherit; font-variant:inherit">
<a name="m_4163903779809082484_webProfileURL"></a><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/kseeburn/" target="_blank" title="View public profile"><span style=""><span style="font-size:8.5pt; font-family:"inherit",serif; color:#666666; border:none windowtext 1.0pt; padding:0in; text-decoration:none">www.linkedin.com/in/kseeburn/</span></span><span style=""></span></a><span style=""></span><span style="font-size:8.5pt; font-family:"inherit",serif"></span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a> </p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>