<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_39040"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_39226">@Andrew,</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_39039"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38988">I have no objection to attempts to reign in 'internet averse' governments. My worry is what will happen next if and after the policy passes? </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_39514">Most of us are aware of the ITU/ICANN tensions with respect to internet governance...will such a policy give impetus or reason for even the 'moderate' governments to finally have a tangible reason to push for and get their national or regional RIRs?</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_40539">Perhaps at the moment the effort and impetus to go national/regional RIRs has not gained traction simply because there has not been any thing substantive enough to rally the governments together for such a move. Could such a policy be the missing rallying call?</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_39884">After all no government would want to be told that they are offline because some "Company Ltd" based somewhere in the middle of the Indian Ocean has switched them off (no offence Kris, to the Star and Key of the Indian Ocean... just wearing the hat of some typical African dictator :-).</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_40946">In short, lets debate the policy, but remember as we say in contemporary Kenya - choices do have consequences.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38989" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_40987">walu.</span></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38852"><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38860" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38859"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38858"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38857"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38856"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_38956"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Arsène Tungali <arsenebaguma@gmail.com>; Mukom Akong T. <mukom.tamon@gmail.com> <br><b id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_40254"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1491987477045_40253">Cc:</span></b> "rpd@afrinic.net" <rpd@afrinic.net><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 12, 2017 5:52 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [rpd] New Policy Proposal - "Anti-Shutdown (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01)"<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv1443020515"><style>#yiv1443020515 #yiv1443020515 --
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Hi Arsene,</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Your comments are well noted.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Let me ask you however, as a compromise position, would you be willing to accept a situation where we limit this to the state, parastatals, and with
the exclusion of academia and space that can be proved to belong to critical services (hospitals, emergency services etc).</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I’m not sure how we would word this in – but I’d be quite willing to work with anyone who wants to try and have a bash at getting this wording out
if you’re interested in looking at it from that perspective.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">We also need to consider the role of the regulator – because often – it is not the regulator who triggers these shutdowns – it is above them that
those orders come down from. As a matter of fact, I am quite proud to see that I have seen one regulator so far stand up on this list and SUPPORT this proposal – it surprised me and I congratulate and thank them for standing for their convictions, that really
made me a very happy man to see.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I’d love to see more comments from regulators in this discussion about this – there are many on this list – and let’s hope they are prepared to come
and give their views, either for or against, and explain WHY their views are what they are. Let us approach this in the spirit of discussion and the spirit of finding the RIGHT solution. If that is an edit of the current policy or a total re-draft – either
way is acceptable.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I think the point here is – I believe there needs to be something more than statements as you have said – there need to be consequences for actions
such as these – how those consequences are directed and applied is a very wide debate – and I think it’s one we should all deeply engage in. That however an opinion – there are others who feel that the neutrality of the internet organizations is sacrosanct
and we should stay out of it – and on a personal level and not speaking for anyone else, or any other entity, I acknowledge those views – I choose however to disagree with that stance.</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">What I am seeing so far from the discussions, is that there seems to be general agreement on the fact that there is a problem – so the problem statement
of rogue states and shutdowns is real – the debate then is how we do something about it – so, open to ideas, and once again, open to co-authors</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Andrew</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515yqt7695942726" id="yiv1443020515yqt43931"><div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;"> Arsène Tungali [mailto:arsenebaguma@gmail.com]
<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> 12 April 2017 17:14<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Mukom Akong T. <mukom.tamon@gmail.com><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> rpd@afrinic.net<br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] New Policy Proposal - "Anti-Shutdown (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01)"</span></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">Hi everyone,</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""> </div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">Internet shutdowns is a topic that I am interested in so much and have been involved in research, drafting statements sent to government officials, have spoken in various avenues
and have written pieces for websites, blogs, journals, etc. I consider myself being an advocate of an open and accessible internet to all. I am opposed to any form of disruption over the network including Internet shutdown whatever the reason.</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""> </div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">For those of us who have little knowledge on this, I would suggest two links:</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515gmail-msolistparagraph">-<span style="font-size:7.0pt;"> </span>
One which is a report on the State of Internet freedoms in DRC (my country): <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://cipesa.org/?wpfb_dl=234">
http://cipesa.org/?wpfb_dl=234</a></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515gmail-msolistparagraph">-<span style="font-size:7.0pt;"> </span>
And a blogpost I recently wrote for CIPESA on the same issue: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://cipesa.org/2017/03/the-evolution-of-internet-shutdowns-in-dr-congo/">
http://cipesa.org/2017/03/the-evolution-of-internet-shutdowns-in-dr-congo/</a></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">I am also a believer that we need concrete actions (more than just statements) to help our governments understand that for no reason, they should shutdown the Internet. In DRC,
we are at 4% Internet penetration, yet we have experienced Internet shutdown more than 4 times, being one of those African countries that have been seriously touched (Cameroon is now leading). And we felt the effect of being disconnected to all communications
including SMS, Internet, etc. It is harmful!</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""> </div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">I was one of those who sent praises to AFRINIC for issuing a statement condemning Internet shutdowns and I am glad as a community, we have been thinking on some practical measures
that will, hopefully, force our government to no longer consider Internet shutdown whenever they are trying to hide something. I would like to congratulate the authors of this proposal but I am not yet in support of the measures they have suggested because,
to sum up my point here, <i>this will cause so much damage to those entities that will not benefit from resources though they are not associated with the decision (which is a Gov decision most of the times) to shutdown the Internet</i>.</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""> </div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">I note so many other people including Seun have mentioned this in this thread.</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""> </div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">After reading the proposal, I have the following comment which are leading my worry in supporting this proposal as it is:</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""><i>We need measures that will only affect the entity ordering the shutdown (the Government then the Regulator). In my country for example, it is the Regulator who is executing an
order that came from the Gov. If we decide to not deliver resources to other entities (Schools, research centers, etc), be they related to the Gov, we will be doing more bad to them as they will simply be victims.</i></div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""> </div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">I am glad the authors are all from ISPs (if I am not mistaken), which is a good sign. In this debate across Africa, there were close to no statement or action from ISPs with regards
to Internet shutdown though they are the ones executing, in most cases, the decision to turn it off, a request they receive from the Regulator. In most cases, they have no means to say no given the fact that they have signed an agreement (MoU) with the Gov
to abide by any request from the Gov including network disruptions (this is applicable in DRC as per the report I previously shared).</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""> </div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">I do believe there is more ISPs can help with in the battle against Government ordered shutdowns and if something like this can be added to this policy, that will be helpful. One
of the possibilities are to engage the Gov. in a win-win discussion. You guys are doing business with the Gov. and you lose money whenever there is shutdown. There is a way you can find an agreement with the Gov. and discuss the fact that you cannot continue
losing money when there is no appealing reason to shutdown the Internet. We have ISPs as AFRINIC members, this is something they can think of and come up with a proposal (with the support of the community).</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""> </div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">If ever this proposal goes further, I would suggest these measures to ONLY affect the Regulator (not sure if they are also members of AFRINIC but they might) rather than any entity
owned or related to/by the Government. We will be doing more harm than good.</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style=""> </div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">Thanks,</div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="">Arsene
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">------------------------<br clear="none">
*<b>Arsène Tungali</b>*</div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">Co-Founder & Executive Director, <i><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rudiinternational.org/">Rudi international</a></i>,<br clear="none">
CEO,<i> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.smart-serv.info/">Smart Services Sarl</a></i>,
<i><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.mabingwa-forum.com/">Mabingwa Forum</a></i>
<br clear="none">
Tel: +243 993810967</div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">GPG: 523644A0</div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><u>Goma, Democratic Republic of Congo</u></div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://tungali.blogspot.com/2015/06/selected-for-2015-mandela-washington.html">2015 Mandela Washington Felllow</a> (YALI) - ISOC Ambassador (IGF
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.internetsociety.org/what-we-do/education-and-leadership-programmes/next-generation-leaders/igf-ambassadors-programme/Past-Ambassadors">
Brazil</a> & <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.internetsociety.org/what-we-do/education-and-leadership-programmes/next-generation-leaders/Current-Ambassadors">
Mexico</a>) <span style="">- <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://afrisig.org/afrisig-2016/class-of-2016/">
AFRISIG 2016</a> - </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://tungali.blogspot.com/">Blogger</a> - ICANN Fellow (<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2014-07-18-en">Los Angeles</a> &
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/marrakech55-attendees-2016-03-14-en">
Marrakech</a>).<i> </i>AFRINIC Fellow<i> </i>(<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/library/news/1907-afrinic-25-fellowship-winners">Mauritius</a>)<i> -
</i><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.igfsa.org/">IGFSA Member</a> - Internet Governance - Internet Freedom.<i>
</i><br clear="none">
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Check the <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://cipesa.org/?wpfb_dl=234">2016 State of Internet Freedom in DRC report</a></div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">2017-04-12 15:20 GMT+02:00 Mukom Akong T. <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mukom.tamon@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mukom.tamon@gmail.com">mukom.tamon@gmail.com</a>>:</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm;">
<div>
<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">**wearing NO hat**</div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"> </div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">On 12 April 2017 at 14:02, Barrack Otieno <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:otieno.barrack@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:otieno.barrack@gmail.com">otieno.barrack@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm;">
<div>Hi Mukom,</div>
<div>Understood, i raised this point because i am aware of the fact that it has not been easy to get the Afrinic Government working group going and this could be a great area of engaging this group since most of the shutdowns can be attributed to lack of knowledge
by key actors and sheer ignorance.</div>
</blockquote>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"> </div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">The job of building capacity with governments is important and definitely will continue - not just from AFRINIC, but also from other stake-holders - irrespective of the outcome of this proposal. But that's a side issue.</div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"> </div>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm;">
<div>As a key stakeholder it would be great idea to include them in this conversation.</div>
</blockquote>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"> </div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">I don't see any attempt to exclude them. The AFRINIC PDP is open to all. Each and every person that has ever been to the AFGWG knows about this mailing list and how to take part in it. I'm hoping that they are following and we'll be seeing
contributions from them soon (some already have responded)</div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"> </div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">My point was that there's no room in the PDP for the community to wait ad-infinitum for a response from them. </div>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm;">
<div>The proposal is well intentioned but the outcome might be in the interest of proponents of Internet shutdowns.</div>
</blockquote>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"> </div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal">It would greatly enhance this discussion if you could state how this will be in their interest. </div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888;"> </span></div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span class="yiv1443020515hoenzb"><span style="color:#888888;">-- </span></span></div>
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<div class="yiv1443020515MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888;"><br clear="none">
Mukom Akong T.<br clear="none">
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</span><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/mukom">LinkedIn:Mukom</a> </span><span style="color:#888888;"> | twitter: @perfexcellent </span></div>
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