<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">Hello All,</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">It is obvious that we do have issues here….</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">Everyone remember the co-chairs elections on the fly we had in Pointe-Noire and Gaborone? After these dramatic scenarios we heard proposals in the rooms for :</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">- having 3 co-chairs</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">-electing interim co-chair and give time to elect co-chair following normal process when last minutes resignation occurred as during these 2 meetings.</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">-etc…</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">It has also be brought up the issue of having the two chairs(according to the PDP) and two co-chairs( according to the common language) disagreeing on the way forward and the idea of having either :</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">- 3 chairs or co-chairs</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">- one chair and co-chair(s). In case of tie or conflict, chair voice prevails. </div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">But let me focus for the other important issues which are moderation of list, face to face discussings and driving the process to “rough Consensus” or to closure.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">The PDP made the choice of “Working Group”, “Working Group Chairs”, and “Rough Consensus”, from an adaptation from RFC 2026. </div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">Managing the Working group activities and process as well as the “rough consensus” process have been challenging. A working Group usually benefits from a strong leadership and clear procedures.</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">But in the absence of explicit definition of the WG management principles and rules and “rough consensus” process, are we not supposed to follow the Working Group Guidelines and Procedures as described by RFC 2418 and RFC 3934 ?</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">- Working Group operations as described by section 3 of RFC 2418</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">- Co-chairs role as described at section 6.1 of RFC 2418</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">Section 6.1.: WG Chair</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">The Chair's responsibility encompasses at least the following:</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">* Ensure WG process and content management</div><p style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></p><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">* Moderate the WG email list</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">* Plan WG Sessions</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">* Communicate results of sessions</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">* Distribute the workload</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">* Document development</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">* Document publication</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">* Document implementations</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><p style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></p><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">- Make decision through “Rough consensus” as described by section 3.3 of RFC2418 and considers RFC7282 on “rough consensus”</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt" class="">https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt</a></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3934.txt" class="">https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3934.txt</a></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">Thanks</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">—Alain</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 26, 2016, at 1:29 PM, Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" class="">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Marcus K. G. Adomey <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:madomey@hotmail.com" target="_blank" class="">madomey@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">
<div id="gmail-m_1364584554471548484divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: calibri, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><p class="">Hi Seun,</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class="">You wrote,</p><span class="gmail-"><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:15px" class=""><i class="">SO: This is indeed one of the challenges that Co-Chairs have had to wrestle with, while the PDP indicated events that will happen before consensus (+rough) is observed, the actual gauging was left
to the Co-Chairs and while it has been a difficult task, I believe the Co-Chairs have all made effort to uphold the principles highlighted in section 4 of the PDP in determining consensus. That said, during my time as Co-Chair, myself and my colleagues (yeah
colleagues because I welcomed at least 2 co-chair while I was still Co-Chair) and the Policy manager did put up a draft consensus building document which we also presented to the community a couple of times. It may be good to revisit and refine that document...
Nevertheless, I believe this may indeed be a point to consider in other to better assist the Co-Chairs in their voluntary work.</i></span><br class="">
</p><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span><b class="">Thanks for acknowledging the issues and your challenges as former Co-chair. </b></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">SO: I hope you also <b class="">READ</b> my comment within context and i quote the relevant sections below: "...<span class="gmail-"><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:15px" class="">the
actual gauging was left
to the Co-Chairs and while it has been a difficult task, I believe the
Co-Chairs have all made effort to uphold the principles highlighted in
section 4 of the PDP in determining consensus..." The point is that because consensus building is not documented, it makes some parts of the community (or a community member) often cry foul on the decision of the Co-Chair and that is the challenge. Perhaps, I should note that AFRINIC is not the only RIR that doesn't have a consensus building document and while consensus building isn't really documented within AFRINIC the Co-Chairs do make attempt to gauge consensus(+rough) in a manner similar to that of the IETF. Nevertheless, due to the uniqueness of our community I think it may be a good thing to document even though irrespective of what we finally put on paper, we still require that the community have faith and trust in their elected Co-Chairs as that can't be documented.<br class=""></span></span></div><div class=""> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=""><div id="gmail-m_1364584554471548484divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: calibri, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""> Can you please provide links to the document or discussion in archive?</b></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">SO: I do not know what the current status of the document is but here is the url to the version on my drive which may/may not be the latest version.: <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wOQTSXAr_HzKP8jqrOYKESzyubA680JUsV57yBmfBNU/edit?usp=sharing" class="">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wOQTSXAr_HzKP8jqrOYKESzyubA680JUsV57yBmfBNU/edit?usp=sharing</a><br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=""><div id="gmail-m_1364584554471548484divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: calibri, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class="">Thank you,</b></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Marcus</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" class="">
<div id="gmail-m_1364584554471548484divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><b class="">From:</b> Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 25, 2016 12:36:36 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Omo Oaiya<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b> General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC RPD MList.<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - PDP review?</font>
<div class=""> </div>
</div><div class=""><div class="gmail-h5">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hello,<br class="">
<br class="">
Speaking on my personal behalf and as a former Co-Chair of PDWG, do find a few comments inline:<br class="">
<br class="">
On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:05 AM, Omo Oaiya <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:Omo.Oaiya@wacren.net" target="_blank" class="">Omo.Oaiya@wacren.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">While the new PDP succeeded in addressing #1 and #2, it has not addressed #3 and #4.</p><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">The current PDP introduced the PDWG with co-chairs to perform the "administrative functions” of the group. </p><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">- It did not describe what these administrative functions were. <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">SO: The overall "administrative" roles and responsibilities of the co-chairs can be found at the PDWG homepage. Does it need to be further broken down than it currently is or does it need to be expanded? I will leave that to the community to discuss and
determine. I put the current roles below:<br class="">
<br class="">
<h4 class=""><b class="">Roles and Responsibilities of the PDWG Chairs</b></h4>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Determining whether there is consensus during open policy discussions.</li><li class="">Publishing minutes of the proceedings of public policy meetings.</li><li class="">Initiation and termination of final review of proposals (Last Call).</li><li class="">Sending a report of the outcomes of policy discussions at public policy meetings to the Board of Directors.</li></ul>
ref: <a href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/community/policy-development/pdwg" target="_blank" class="">http://www.afrinic.net/en/<wbr class="">community/policy-development/<wbr class="">pdwg</a><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">- It did not prescribe criteria for co-chairs selection or an election mechanism. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">SO: Hmm...for every election/selection, there has always been election/selection criteria[1]. Although the nomcom leads this process, a quick look at the Bylaw seem to imply that nomcom scope is within Board/Board related elections alone[2] (that may
also be something to fix). However the Bylaw was clear on the fact that the Election committee coordinates all election processes[3] which I believe includes that of the Co-Chairs.<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The question I think the community may need to address is whether the current criteria set is sufficient, if not, should the community recommend more criteria to nomcom or an AFRINIC member propose hard-coding a requirement into the Bylaw which must then
be adhered to by nomcom in addition to their own criteria.<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">- It also did not describe the process for determining “rough consensus”. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">SO: This is indeed one of the challenges that Co-Chairs have had to wrestle with, while the PDP indicated events that will happen before consensus (+rough) is observed, the actual gauging was left to the Co-Chairs and while it has been a difficult task,
I believe the Co-Chairs have all made effort to uphold the principles highlighted in section 4 of the PDP in determining consensus. That said, during my time as Co-Chair, myself and my colleagues (yeah colleagues because I welcomed at least 2 co-chair while
I was still Co-Chair) and the Policy manager did put up a draft consensus building document which we also presented to the community a couple of times. It may be good to revisit and refine that document... Nevertheless, I believe this may indeed be a point
to consider in other to better assist the Co-Chairs in their voluntary work.<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">As a result, we have seen: </p><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">- co-chairs candidates who could be more familiar with PDP and Internet Number Resource management. </p><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">- insufficient moderation of policy proposal discussions on the mailing list and at face to face meetings leading to endless repetitive discussions.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">SO: This is indeed one of the things Co-Chairs find challenging; the current PDP requires that comments on the list and that of the face 2 face should be the basis for checking consensus to last call. It would indeed be helpful if all comments that comes
in on the list are addressed (as much as possible) by the author(s) and it will also be good if people use the mailing list to raise their concerns as much as possible. However that is usually not the case, hence the challenge. While the Co-Chairs moderation
may not have been perfect (depending on our individual standards). I think it would also be good to recognise that we are in a very unique community and environment where effective moderation is not just by skills alone but also by Grace ;-)<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">- inability of co-chairs to determine consensus encouraging abuse of the process with some people persistently opposing proposals and stalling progress with insubstantial arguments causing unnecessary delay and
frustration</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">SO: I am not sure what the above means but I believe "draft policies" always have a consensus status declared at the end of the PPM. Though yes i understand the frustration it could cause if the expectation is different from what the co-chairs declared.
That said, I believe that is why we have section 7 of the PDP which can be used to resolve these issues when they arise.<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">The policy discussions at AFRINIC-24 is a perfect illustration. Another easy example is that since AFRINIC-24, there has been little discussion on proposals which were sent back on mailing list for further discussions
as per meeting minutes (<a href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/library/policies/archive/ppm-minutes/1847-afrinic-24-pdwgpdp-minutes" target="_blank" class="">http://www.afrinic.net/en/lib<wbr class="">rary/policies/archive/ppm-minu<wbr class="">tes/1847-afrinic-24-pdwgpdp-<wbr class="">minutes</a>)
and no action from the working group co-chairs. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">SO: The current PDP "DOES NOT" permit the co-chairs to discard a proposed policy within 12months of the proposal/edits of such policy, irrespective of whether there is comment or not. However Co-Chairs makes effort to encourage the author(s) to voluntarily
withdraw their proposals having observed the community's stand/direction about it.
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards<br class="">
1. <a href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/community/elections/pdwg-election?start=3" target="_blank" class="">
http://www.afrinic.net/en/<wbr class="">community/elections/pdwg-<wbr class="">election?start=3</a><br class="">
2. <a href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/about/bylaws?start=8" target="_blank" class="">http://www.afrinic.net/en/<wbr class="">about/bylaws?start=8</a>
<br class="">
3. <a href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/about/bylaws?start=9" target="_blank" class="">http://www.afrinic.net/en/<wbr class="">about/bylaws?start=9</a><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">**Some questions for the community and co-chairs**</p><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">- How do we fix issues #3 and #4? </p><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p1">- Will the proposals returned to the list be presented in AFRINIC-25? if yes, what will be the discussion points be and for which expected outcomes?</p>
<span class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><p class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail-p2">-Omo</p>
<div class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail-m_3743134787250619905gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><a href="http:/" target="_blank" class=""></a></div>
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</div>
</font></span></div>
<br class="">
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<br clear="all" class="">
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
<div class="gmail-m_1364584554471548484gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
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<div dir="ltr" class="">------------------------------<wbr class="">------------------------------<wbr class="">------------<br class="">
<font color="#888888" class="">
<blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;font-family:garamond,serif" class="">
<i class=""><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">Seun Ojedeji,<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">Federal University Oye-Ekiti<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">web: </span><a href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng/" target="_blank" class="">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br class="">
<span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class=""></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">Mobile: <a value="+2348035233535" class="">
+2348035233535</a></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class=""></span><br class="">
</i><i class=""><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">alt email:<a href="http://goog_1872880453/" target="_blank" class="">
</a><a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank" class="">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></span></i><br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="">
Bringing another down does not take you up - think about your action!<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</font><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br class=""><br clear="all" class=""><br class="">-- <br class=""><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class=""><font color="#888888" class=""><blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;font-family:garamond,serif" class="">
<i class=""><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">Seun Ojedeji,<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class=""></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">Federal University Oye-Ekiti<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class=""></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">web: </span><a href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng/" target="_blank" class="">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br class="">
<span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class=""></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">Mobile: <a value="+2348035233535" class="">+2348035233535</a></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class=""></span><br class=""></i><i class=""><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)" class="">alt email:<a href="http://goog_1872880453/" target="_blank" class=""> </a><a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank" class="">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></span></i><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="">Bringing another down does not take you up - think about your action!<br class=""></blockquote></blockquote></font><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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