<div dir="ltr">well<br><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 19 July 2014 16:48, Mukom Akong T. <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mukom.tamon@gmail.com" target="_blank">mukom.tamon@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">*** speaking as <span>mysefl i.e.</span> no hats ***<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Seun Ojedeji <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">"<span>changing</span> the subject line to allow for proper <span>followup</span>"<br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Noah Maina <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mainanoa@gmail.com" target="_blank">mainanoa@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Which is why I was arguing that LIRs shouldn't <span>seat</span> on the space allocated but use it extensively. If customers want <span>ips</span> give it to them.</p>
</blockquote><div>Lots of LIR don't practice this, they kind-of encourage <span>NATing</span> by giving their users a few public IP and when the user <span>ask</span> for more, they attach a fee to it. A typical ISP gives max of a /28 for free and everything beyond <span>attracts</span> an extra fee. You can imagine a typical institution with over 40,000 users assigned a /28 for use.<br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I'd say a good engineer would do the math of "get my own space from AFRINIC" <span>vs</span> "pay for more IPs from the provider". A very important point is that moment when the contract is being negotiated - engineers should give input <span>in to</span> this. I'd say two important points need to be made:</div>
<div> </div><div>a) The institutions is paying for a circuit and transit</div><div>b) The institution should connect via BGP if they so wish do</div><div><br></div><div>This should counter that default position from some providers where a connection means a CPE with a /28 and a NAT configuration.</div>
<div><br></div><div> </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Service Providers - typically have different internet service packages which are mostly delivered using different access technologies to target different markets. <br>
<br>For example a service provider may have a package which assigns /29 IPv4 addresses to a 2048 / 512 kbps down/up shared internet connection delivered over ADSL. Thats normal :) because such services are designed for home users. They assume the service will be used by not more than 4 - 10 connected workstations. This is also mostly programmed with the provisioning systems and seen more as a business policy or rule.<br>
<br>If an institution should go for such a service they should not expect a /24 IPv4 or higher to be assigned to them.<br></div><div><br></div><div>It only becomes an issue when institutions purchase dedicated circuits and they are not assigned enough IPv4 (e.g. /24). It will surprise you that service providers mostly assign /24 to their corporate customers but these customers only use about 5 - 8 IPs and just NAT the rest of their network even though the service provider routes the /24 to their demarcation point.<br>
<br></div><div>Lesson: most internet users are only concerned about being connected and how fast their internet connection is. Only a few care to know whether they are NATed or have a direct transparent IP connection. This is universal.<br>
<br></div><div>The bitter truth is the chunk of the IPv4 addresses in general are consumed by data centers and hosting companies worldwide. Lets think about how to get more of such consumers established in our region and stop brooding over IPs and double standard policies.<br>
</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">As for Saun's experience that is <span>outa</span> this world. .<span>.</span><span>eish</span><span>...</span>that provider sounds old <span>school but</span> <span>thats</span> <span>wats</span> up! !!</p>
</blockquote><div>You can say that again, it may shock you to know that <span>the</span> provide is a major ISP in the continent! <br></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Use the power of community to name and shame. I'm sure your institution is not the only one at the receiving end of such policy, when multiple client institutions collectively demanded the proper thing am sure they'll take notice. If the university is part of the BWC in Nigeria, that is a good platform.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I've also seen a REN try to stop its member university from having and advertising their own space. Fortunately, I did tell them that wasn't the purpose of a REN and backed up by some universities which had their own space and the REN seems to have backed off from that position.</div>
<div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">And for the old NAT, <span>its</span> here to stay. .<span>.</span><span>you</span> <span>wanna</span> kick out <span>out</span>...<span>.</span>start from its inception which is <span>collage</span> and <span>academys</span> where Fundamentals of Routing are taught lol<span>...</span>NAT/PAT is like a 1st time ideology <span>embibe</span> <span>onto</span> any aspiring network engineer<span>...</span>then there is <span>the</span> believe that NAT offers some sort of security lol.<br>
</p></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>:-) <span>such</span> has to be particularly BAD class. Every Cisco course (ICND, CCNA) and I'm sure the AFNOG courses teach Routing First and only later teaches NAT as a way to deal with insufficiency of IPv4 addresses.</div>
<div><br></div><div><span>Sure they</span> are engineers who never had those fundamentals straight and somehow ended up running networks - they quickly used NAPT where they should have routed (because it is quite easy to set up NAT than configure routing)</div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">
<br></p></blockquote><div>Hopefully v6 will kick-it out finally, in <span>generation</span> to come though ;)<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>The required change from the training <span>perspective is</span> to now say<span> ...</span> "The sustainable solution to IPv4 insufficiency is IPv6" as well as have a session teaching the contrary consequences of using NAT. </div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>Cheers!<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr"><br></p>
<p dir="ltr">Cheers. </p><span><font color="#888888">
<p dir="ltr">Noah</p>
</font></span><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On 19 Jul 2014 09:12, "Andrew Alston" <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution">
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div><i>There are quite a number of members who are yet to deploy any subnet of the resource allocated to them. There are reasons why this can happen; for example, the upstream provider of a member (which I am <span>contact</span>) <span>attach</span> a recurring fee to block advertisement.
This to me was quite surprising and we are still trying to avoid that cost either through convincing the current provider or moving on to another!</i></div>
<span>
<p dir="ltr"><i>Nevertheless, I don't think there is any member in that category that will successfully get additional allocation.<br>
On a lighter note, this could raise a question on usage and whether a policy is required to "ensure" usage ;)</i></p>
<p dir="ltr">That’s about the most bizarre thing I’ve read in quite a while… as a provider I want my members to advertise every block of space they possibly have to me – the more they advertise to me, the more traffic flows via me to them, the more transit
I sell them. I really don’t understand the logic behind some providers.</p>
</span>
<div>Let’s face facts, IF a provider has customers that have their own space and their own ASN, <span>its</span> in the <span>providers</span> interests to encourage as much advertisement as possible. However, on the converse, it is in a <span>providers</span> <span>interests</span> to have customers on space
assigned by them and not running BGP at all (in the latter case, it means the customer probably isn’t multi-homed, and for the customer to churn the customer will have to renumber, which can be a MAJOR headache, meaning the customer is far less likely to move
on).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It’s an interested dialectic, it is in AfriNIC’s (and hence it could be argued the communities) interests to have as many people as possible with their own space and their own ASN’s. However, it is in the interests of providers to encourage the uptake
of space out of their own blocks assigned by AfriNIC and discourage this <span>behaviour</span>. At the same time, what amazes me about Africa and the substantive use of NAT, it is NOT in a <span>providers</span> <span>interests</span> to have customers behind NAT, and I wonder if this isn’t something
we could use to promote the uptake of IPv4 on the continent. The simple reality is, a customer behind NAT can churn in an instant, the changes required on the customer side are minimal. However, a customer on a <span>providers</span> space that is NOT running NAT and
has the space all over the place has to renumber which could be a downtime and OPEX intensive activity. (I’ve actually seen research that shows that non-NAT customers are
<span style="font-weight:bold">FAR</span> less likely to churn, it reduces the churn rate by double digit percentage points).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Andrew</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
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<i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Seun Ojedeji,<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Federal University Oye-Ekiti<br style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"><span>web</span>: </span><a href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
<span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Mobile: <a value="+2348035233535">+2348035233535</a></span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><br></i><i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"><span>alt</span> email:<a href="http://goog_1872880453" target="_blank"> </a><a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></span></i><br>
<br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The key to understanding is humility - my view<span> !</span><br>
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