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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Maina,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You read me wrong, I do not advocate at all for the selling of IP addresses. I believe very strongly though that legacy space is outside of the RIR structure, and legacy space holders are free to do whatever the hell they like with their space. Reality is, there is already a secondary market, it exists, leasing, selling and buying of legacy space is happening. Look at the Microsoft / Nortel case, which was the start of it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As I said, when it comes to non-legacy space, AfriNIC leases that space to its members in the case of LIR’s, they charge an annual fee for it in addition to membership fee, if that is a cost recovery model or a profit model, it doesn’t change the fact that at its very base, it’s a lease, you are granted the right to use something in exchange for a financial fee. ISP’s in addition charge clients for additional address space *<b>all the time</b>*, if you want more than X number of IP’s, the ISP’s ask for money, that again, is a lease agreement even if it is disguised as something else. The economics of profit vs non-profit don’t matter, it’s the fact that a right of use is being charged for at all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have major issues though when it comes to the ability of an LIR to lease space to entities who are using it totally off this continent, if there is to be space transfer off this continent, let it happen under the guise of a proper RIR to RIR mechanism with proper policy. That being said, the community seems to have rejected that approach and I accept that, since there has been an overwhelming voice that has said keep the space here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As such, as I said, I do not support Chad’s proposed policy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Maina Noah [mailto:mainanoa@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:15 PM<br><b>To:</b> Andrew Alston<br><b>Cc:</b> Sunday Folayan; tespok@tespok.co.ke; Ernest - (AfriNIC); AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] New Policy Proposal: Inter RIR IPv4 Address Transfers (AFPUB-2013-V4-001-DRAFT-01)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Andrew,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I hope you are not suggesting that we sell IP's nor should any LIR do the same to its customers. AfriNIC members pay a membership fee so number resources can be allocated to them for use in building the African Internet and extending such services. I opposed the sale of IP's when we were in Rabat in 2008 and i will still oppose it. If AfriNIC is getting doggy applications, its their job to make sure they carry-out enough due-diligence in such a case before allocation. Those who think they can hijac the resources and sell outside Africa can as well forget it, which is why your proposal in TZ was very unpopular ammongst the community.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Lets stick to the HEI proposal you and Sunday have drafted and we see how that goes.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Peace..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Maina Noah<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 16 January 2013 17:22, Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:alston.networks@gmail.com" target="_blank">alston.networks@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Aren’t they? </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That’s exactly what the LIR system is. Here are some IP addresses, you pay X amount per year to have them, and you get to give them to other people. You don’t own addresses. If you’re an LIR you’re free to give them to your customers (and charge your customers for those blocks) and hence lease them out to your customers on the continent.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Same thing… the controversial nature of this proposal surrounds where the addresses are being leased TO.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Have to say though, while initially I supported this proposal, having read anything, I’m pretty convinced that this is the wrong way to go. I still believe that AfriNIC should be willing to participate in a mechanism to allow excess addresses in the pool to be used off continent, via SOME means or other, to avoid a situation where our space gets hijacked as the rest of the world runs out, but that’s another debate. (Add to the fact that information from within AfriNIC indicates that AfriNIC is already receiving loads of applications of “dodgy” nature from companies that seem to want the space off the continent, as I stated in Tanzania, we either use the space, or the rest of the world is gonna take it, and there is nothing we can do about it, we can however control HOW they take it and if we get something outta it or not!)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andrew</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:rpd-bounces@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd-bounces@afrinic.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd-bounces@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd-bounces@afrinic.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sunday Folayan<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 16, 2013 4:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:tespok@tespok.co.ke" target="_blank">tespok@tespok.co.ke</a><br><b>Cc:</b> AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List; Ernest - (AfriNIC)<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] New Policy Proposal: Inter RIR IPv4 Address Transfers (AFPUB-2013-V4-001-DRAFT-01)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Fiona,<br><br><br>On 16/01/2013 12:04, Fiona Asonga wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Hallo Chad<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I hope the author of this proposal in on the list to respond since he has been rather quiet. I am still asking what is the goal of the proposal since I think the proposal is kind of incomplete. What I would like to understand is;... so as to enable, achieve or facilitate what........? <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Still wonder why? Even with McTim's post of 11-01-2013 which quoted is:<br><br><BEGIN><br>In addition, at <a href="http://www.facebook.com/chad.abizeid" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/chad.abizeid</a>, I found:<br><br>"Chad Abizeid<br>Please contact me at <a href="mailto:chad@logicweb.com" target="_blank">chad@logicweb.com</a> / 877-564-4293 ext 79. I am<br>looking to see if your company may be interested in leasing over 250k<br>IP addresses (/14) from my company LogicWeb Inc (est 2004). Smaller<br>subnet leasing available as well. Thank you.<br>Like · · October 10 at 5:45pm"<br></END><br><br>I wonder why AfriNIC is not into the leasing business ;)<br><br>Sunday.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>rpd mailing list<br><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>