<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">In part, I would argue that good numbering practice depends on keeping the barrier to entry for provider independent end-user addresses relatively low so as not to exclude multihomed end-users of modest means from the ability to number their networks in such a way that they are not locked in to a particular provider.<div><br></div><div>In order to do that and still support the other aspects of running an RIR which generally provide significantly more direct benefit to the larger consumers of addresses, most of whom are LIRs, the LIRs must take on a significantly greater proportion of the costs. These other aspects include the RIR meetings, the sponsorship of various trainings in the AfriNIC service region, etc. I think if one were to look in detail at the budget of AfriNIC (I have not), one would find that travel and events are probably among the largest expenses. I suspect that most of the travel and events expenses would be related to the two public AfriNIC meetings each year, AfNOG contributions, and travel for staff to conduct training and other outreach throughout the region.</div><div><br></div><div>At each of the meetings I have attended where the question has been asked, the community has resoundingly said yes to these various training and outreach initiatives.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><div><div>On Jul 21, 2012, at 7:59 AM, Duncan Martin wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=unicode" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 9.00.8112.16447">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div dir="ltr" id="idOWAReplyText20212">
<div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<hr tabindex="-1">
<font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Nii Narku Quaynor [mailto:quaynor@ghana.com]<br><b>Sent:</b> Sat 2012/07/21 04:11 PM<br><b>To:</b> Duncan Martin<br><b>Cc:</b> Sunday Folayan; Guy Antony Halse; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AfriNIC-rpd] Definitions of LIR versus End User<br></font><br></div>
<div>Martin,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>SM is right. Fees are not for here but if you insist...some comments follow<br><br>On Jul 21, 2012, at 13:13, "Duncan Martin" <<a href="mailto:ceo@tenet.ac.za">ceo@tenet.ac.za</a>> wrote:<br><br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" id="idOWAReplyText29479">
<div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">Hi Nii,</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial">What I believe is that huge differences in the fee structures applicable to various groups of allocatees should be justified in terms of AfriNIC's obligations and responsibility as a RIR to ensure/promote good Internet numbering practice in the Region.</font></div></div></div></blockquote>
<div>I am not sure the real issue you wish addressed as the community at sometime approved these fees. Would you therefore say that the community promoted bad numbering practice in the region? And which policy is causing this?<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" id="idOWAReplyText29479">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial">Your remark correctly that my first statement could be an assumption (that present differences in the charges to End-User and LIRs are based on perceptions of the prices and implicit cross-subsidisations that different market segments will tolerate). This is an hypothesis that helps to explain the fee differences.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial">It would be great to see an explantion why these fee differences are indeed essential to promote good numbering practices.</font></div></div></div></blockquote>
<div>Your assumption perhaps has marred the answer;-) you seem to have started with "AfriNIC is not promoting good numbering practices... " and now looking for evidence. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><font color="#0000ff">Nii! Not at all! It is you who insist on imagining prior positions in my mind that have lead me to write what I did. The idea in this thread that I accuse AfriNIC of not promoting good numbering practices is entirely of your invention. </font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff">I asked for an explanation as to how AfriNIC's promotion of good numbering practices demands the large differences in fees charged to End Users and LIRs. I hypothesised that the fee structure derives from other considerations. In three postings you've not attempted any kind of answer. Perhaps someone else will.</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff">Over and out.</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff">Duncan<br></font><br></div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" id="idOWAReplyText29479">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial">Duncan Martin</font></div></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<hr tabindex="-1">
<font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Nii Narku Quaynor [mailto:quaynor@ghana.com]<br><b>Sent:</b> Sat 2012/07/21 10:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> Duncan Martin<br><b>Cc:</b> Sunday Folayan; Guy Antony Halse; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AfriNIC-rpd] Definitions of LIR versus End User<br></font><br></div>
<div>
<div><br><br>On Jul 21, 2012, at 4:28, "Duncan Martin" <<a href="mailto:ceo@tenet.ac.za">ceo@tenet.ac.za</a>> wrote:<br><br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" id="idOWAReplyText81484">
<div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">I support Sunday's call for a review of AfriNIC's fee structures.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">The present huge differences between the fees charged to End-Users and those charged to LIRs show that AfriNIC's fees are not based on cost-recovery, as would befit a non-profit entity, but, evidently, on perceptions of the prices and implicit cross-subsidisations that different market segments will tolerate.</font></div></div></div></blockquote>This could be an assumption <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" id="idOWAReplyText81484">
<div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">If definitions of End Users and LIRs and distinctions between End Users and LIRs are indeed required in AfriNIC's fee structures, should these not be justified in terms of AfriNIC's obligations and responsibility as a RIR to ensure/promote good Internet numbering practice in the Region?</font></div></div></div></blockquote>Please explain why you think AfriNIC is not promoting good numbering practices<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" id="idOWAReplyText81484">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial">Duncan Martin</font></div>
<div dir="ltr">
<hr tabindex="-1">
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:rpd-bounces@afrinic.net">rpd-bounces@afrinic.net</a> on behalf of Sunday Folayan<br><b>Sent:</b> Fri 2012/07/20 09:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> Guy Antony Halse<br><b>Cc:</b> AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AfriNIC-rpd] Definitions of LIR versus End User<br></font><br></div></div>
<div><p>All of this exercise at definitions and ambiguity discoveries points to a total warp in the afrinic fee structure. That is what needs equitable review, not definitions.</p><p>My 1 micro-lira.</p><p>SF.</p><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<blockquote type="cite">On 13 Jul 2012 08:13, "Guy Antony Halse" <<a href="mailto:G.halse@ru.ac.za">G.halse@ru.ac.za</a>> wrote:<br><br>Hi<br><p><font color="#500050"><br>On Wed 2012-07-11 (20:12), Seun Ojedeji wrote:<br>> end-user:<br>> An end-user is an organization receivi...</font></p>When coupled with the definition of LIR:<br><p><font color="#500050"><br>> > A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that receives allocations from<br>> > an RIR and primaril...</font></p>this creates exactly the sort of ambiguity I referred to previously.<br><br>There exists the potential for an organisation that neither uses its IP<br>assignments *exclusively* for its internal use, nor *primarily* assigns<br>address space to end-users. (Note the emphasised words.) From the<br>discussions, most universities come to mind.<br><br>Ergo (at least some) universities are neither end-users nor LIRs.<br><br>Which is why I think that end-user should be !(LIR || RIR).<br><p><font color="#500050"><br>- Guy<br>-- <br>Systems Manager, IT Division, Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa<br>Email: G.Halse...</font></p><p><font color="#500050">_______________________________________________<br>rpd mailing list<br><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.afrin./">https://lists.afrin.</a>..</font></p></blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>rpd mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/rpd</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br>rpd mailing list<br><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a><br>https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/rpd<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>