[rpd] A question for the PDWG

[Fernando Frediani]

Hi Mike

I believe you are mistaken in your view.
I often see people requesting absolutely everything be written in a way 
they except and it doesn't work like that. Not everything has to be 
written '/ipsis literis/' for every specific propose as that would be 
impossible thing.
Some actions are not necessarily administrative but political and they 
have practical effect.
It´s not necessary to have a chapter written in the ICANN bylaws or even 
on ICP-2 stating that it may stop to recognize a given RIR, which is a 
purely internal decision of its Board. That's too optimistic or perhaps 
that a view from people who are against it to to happen to put that such 
provisions must exist written in that very specific way to happen in 
order to make it more difficult or impossible.

Regarding the part about "appealing to a high power" it doesn't exist 
administratively nowadays (unfortunately) and I am defending it should 
exist. Of course people in charge of RIRs would not like to have such 
things and have to be accountable to some other body.

Bottom line is RIRs deal with shared resources that is of the business 
of *entire Internet Community* and they should not be allowed to make 
final decisions without any possibility for an external body to review 
it. Even if it's a collective body, doesn't matter. The main point is 
not to have something and believe that a RIR by itself may decide 
without any possibility of review.
Last point is that community doesn't change bylaws, but only membership 
in the case of RIR and Board in the case of ICANN.

Fernando

On 25/05/2022 13:20, Mike Silber wrote:
> Hi Fernando
>
>> On 25 May 2022, at 17:44, Fernando Frediani<fhfrediani at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi David
>> I think you missed my main point about this topic.
>>
>> I am not saying in any moment ICANN can intervene in any RIR or overwrite any decision they made, but simply they can stop recognize it as a RIR and that should be done based on ICP-2.
> Regrettably you have not read David’s very precise email or my less precise contribution very well.
>
> There is no mechanism for ICANN to stop recognising an RIR. ICANN is bound by its bylaws and policies set by its communities and endorsed by the ICANN board. Unless and until ICP-2 is amended [or a new ICP-3 created] that allows for recognition to be reversed / stopped / withdrawn - then there simply is no such mechanism.
>
>> It is just too comfortable for RIR management or membership (if a decision was taken with their support) in general to think they are untouchable and can do whatever they like with shared resources that may severely affect *all the Internet Community*. That must be a counter balance measures for the rest o Internet community to stop bad actors, including entire RIRs to do things that may affect the stability of the Internet. It just does not make any sense to thing that ICP-2 is used only to form RIR as some may desire and right after be trashed way leaving that RIR alone and doing whatever they like forever. It just doesn't have any logical sense.
>>
> That may be true, but absent a clear policy to the contrary, that is just the way it is. I am not really sure it is illogical, but rather it offends your sense of morality.
>
> You remind me of an angry mother shouting at a child: “I brought you in to this world and I can take you out”. That logic may be appealing to some, however the fact that someone brought something into existence [recognition] does not automatically bestow on the creator the right to destroy.
>
>> In reality I recognize that would be something very exceptional and rare to happen, but I would strong support any of these bad actors to be brought to spot and all necessary discussion be conducted up to ICANN Board to analyze the question as well in all other RIRs.
>> It is just a question of stop recognizing another organization as a valid organization for that ecosystem, and although not all other may do the same, that may have a strong impact and should be supported if it's the case. Defending ICP-2 is only valid for the moment of the creating of the RIR is support anarchy in this whole system which organizations being able to make final decisions about something that impact all others.
> Again you seem to be missing the point and appealing to a “higher power” that does not have the power you think it has. The ICANN  board lacks the authority to do any such thing. The only entities that have the ability to review the conduct of an RIR are its own community and the NRO. What they can do having conducted that review if open to debate, but I would argue that the community can change by-laws [and/or leadership] and the NRO can offer advice and guidance. That is all.
>
>> Regarding RFC 7020 I personally hope it gets fixed at some point. I don't think that is all bad, but it lacks a fundamental point to any system like this: double degree of jurisdiction which must exist in any administrative and legal system. It simply makes any RIR administrative final. It just makes it too comfortable for RIR management since then to not be bothered by other organizations from the same ecosystem should a bad decision is taken regarding resource management making in practice the only viable way to appeal the local courts which is worse then an administrative degree of appeal.
>>
> I suggest you start drafting, as it won’t fix itself :-)
>
> Mike
>
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