[rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM

[Erick Joshua Lagon]

RIRs are simply the managers of these IP address. Besides, we should
advocate for it in order to avoid idling these IP addresses. Why should we
restrict a resource in one region when it obviously outweighs all of the
cons of doing so?

Regards,
Erick


On Sat, Jul 10, 2021 at 4:59 PM Wijdane Goubi <goubi.wijdane at gmail.com>
wrote:


> Hello,

>

> I find it strange that you continually accuse individuals of being

> something they are most likely not, and that you always resort to the

> argument that those who backed the inter-RIR are also advocating IP leasing.

> People fight for what they believe is best for them and the community.

> Instead of continuously blaming people, let us concentrate on the issue at

> hand by articulating the benefits and drawbacks.

>

> Mimi's remarks are really pertinent; can you give an example of a RIR that

> prohibits or actively opposes IP leasing?

>

> Finally, based on everything we've talked so far, I'm convinced that IP

> leasing is capable of resolving the current issue of IPv4 exhaustion.

>

> Cheers,

> Wijdane

>

> Le sam. 10 juil. 2021 à 02:18, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> a

> écrit :

>

>> Interesting that pretty much the same people who fought a battle to push

>> the controversial Inter-RIR proposal that had stuff added at the last time

>> with zero discussion and had no consensus at all are now strongly trying to

>> defend IP Leasing and usage out of the region as something "normal". What a

>> coincidence !

>> On 09/07/2021 21:14, Meriem Dayday wrote:

>>

>> How about addressing the points I mentioned instead of repeating the same

>> statements over and over again?

>> Can you please give me a clear example of an RIR who bans IP leasing or

>> is explicitly against it ?

>>

>> I think you are just refusing to digest REAL facts and repeating the same

>> song due to the lack of valid arguments.

>>

>>

>> Best,

>>

>> Le sam. 10 juil. 2021 à 01:08, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

>> a écrit :

>>

>>> Unbelievable what an amount of absurd we have to cope with here

>>> sometimes. I guess that is s result of total lack of understanding of how

>>> things work and have always worked.

>>>

>>> If a resource holder has a fair amount of **unused IPs** these

>>> addresses MUST be returned back to AfriNic or transferred to another member

>>> who has justification for it, period. There is no middle term for that nor

>>> philosophical or beautiful words to make something different or noble.

>>> If any organization has to lease IPs in order to work it is already

>>> loosing because it could be a AfriNic member getting these same addresses

>>> directly from AfriNic from not a third part at a higher price.

>>>

>>> IP addresses are meant to build and develop internet ecosystem not to

>>> stay with an organization which does not use them and or be rented to

>>> someone else at a higher cost.

>>> It is also false information that all RIRs allow IP leasing.

>>>

>>> Please improve your basis to discuss certain matters and don't spread

>>> false information.

>>> On 08/07/2021 18:53, Mimi dy wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>> Hi Fernando,

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> First, I find it important to remind you that the Internet is ONE.

>>> Moreover, the African region will immensely benefit from this activity,

>>> how? African ISPs/ network-holders can start leasing out unused IPs,

>>> creating a whole connectivity ecosystem, which primarily can help them

>>> generate more income, and more prominently, small scale enterprises/ tech

>>> start-ups…etc., will also thrive through IP leasing instead of dedicating a

>>> large portion of their capital to pay RIR membership fees. Additionally,

>>> the organizations that have the capacity to lease IP addresses to richer

>>> countries (i.e., Australia) will definitely generate an important profit

>>> that will be used for the striving of internet connectivity worldwide. If

>>> you do not see that as an economic growth incentive and a comparative

>>> advantage, I suggest you give it a second thought.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> As a matter of fact, all RIRs allow IP leasing, and inter-RIR resources

>>> transfer, because there is no harm in liberating number resources and

>>> allowing them to be globally transferrable. It is important to realize

>>> that, in this day and age, the whole concept of the Internet is rooted in

>>> openness, freedom and sharing, if you start elaborating restrictive laws

>>> and regulations, the internet will be no different from a communist

>>> government, which can lead to catastrophic repercussions.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> To sum up, number resources are valuable assets and should be used in a

>>> strategic and intelligent way, which can be beneficial for the whole

>>> Internet, while of course maintaining its cooperative nature.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Best,

>>>

>>> Le mer. 7 juil. 2021 à 23:51, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

>>> a écrit :

>>>

>>>> There are several points and places that make it cristal clear that the

>>>> idea of IP Leasing is not just something absurd in terms of IP usage but

>>>> also against different rules in place. However some keep repeating the

>>>> words are not written in the way "they" would like to read and ignoring all

>>>> that just because that might go against their business.

>>>>

>>>> All that Noah put below makes sense even to a newbie in Internet

>>>> Business so any company who need smaller allocations get them from their

>>>> LIR which provides connectivity and that's the main propose these LIRs

>>>> justified the need of these addresses when they were request to AfriNic.

>>>> These business are developing internet in Africa by allocating internet

>>>> resources for the purposes of enabling communications which is also

>>>> provided by these same businesses. What communications are enabled by a

>>>> member who has unused resources and is renting it to another member - or

>>>> worst - in many cases to *a member of another RIR elsewhere* -

>>>> therefore out of the region?

>>>>

>>>> What promotion of responsible management of Internet resources is being

>>>> done *throughout the African region* when a member simply rent these

>>>> resources to someone out of the region ? What development and operation of

>>>> Internet infrastructure is being done in Africa ?

>>>>

>>>> Every unused resource with hold by a member is one chunk of less of

>>>> resources in AfriNic's pool. What is the point of exhausting that pool

>>>> completely and force newcomers to pay a higher price for the same resources

>>>> they could get directly from AfriNic if these unused resources simply used

>>>> for renting would have been returned back to AfriNic pool ? AfriNic looses

>>>> newer members and in turn these companies become dependent from another

>>>> company whose business is not transporting a single bit throughout the

>>>> African region.

>>>>

>>>> Isn't all that enough to stop those who blindly keep trying to make IP

>>>> Leasing and usage out of the region something normal and that should be

>>>> accepted by AfriNic ?

>>>>

>>>> Fernando

>>>> On 07/07/2021 13:15, Noah wrote:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 1:06 AM Anthony Ubah <ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com>

>>>> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Hi Noah,

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> Hi Oga Ubah,

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> What you describe sounds nice if you are one of the established ISPs

>>>>> who are running a top to bottom network. However you can not say the same

>>>>> for smaller enterprises, too small to be an LIR, and unable to run full

>>>>> operations profitably, giving inability to afford the RIR/AFRINIC fees.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> RIR membership fees are annual and AFRINIC today has close to 200

>>>> resource members across the region both large and small.

>>>>

>>>> I know a good number of small enterprises across the eastern coast of

>>>> Africa that get sub-allocations of /29, /28, /26 to /24 from ISP (LIR's)

>>>> providing them with connectivity or hosting services. This practise is

>>>> common and it enables such small enterprises who don't need to become

>>>> AFRINIC resource members to enjoy internet related services through ISP or

>>>> hosting providers infrastructure on the continent.

>>>>

>>>> I similarly know of hyperscalers who provide compute and storage

>>>> services across their infrastructure to a wide range of customers and each

>>>> service comes with some assignment of an integer which is fundamental to

>>>> provision of the IP related services of (compute, storage, applications)

>>>> enabled by integer wrapped in the service to enable IP communication.

>>>> Customers are not paying hyperscalers or hosting providers for an integer

>>>> but a service.

>>>>

>>>> AFRINIC Bylaws Section 3.4) Sections i. and iii. Below talk about *enabling

>>>> communication to assist in the development of the Internet in Africa and

>>>> promote responsible management of number resources* and not

>>>> leasing/brokering.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> *i. to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet

>>>> resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system

>>>> network protocols and to assist in the development and growth of the

>>>> Internet in the African region;*

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> *iii. to promote responsible management of Internet resources

>>>> throughout the African region, as well as the responsible development and

>>>> operation of Internet infrastructures; *

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> I feel total reliance on network providers/carriers also limits

>>>>> flexibility

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> As far as I am concerned, we have had multiple customers who wanted

>>>> their own managed INR beyond what we as an LIR can sub-allocate as part of

>>>> the connectivity services they enjoy from us and we encouraged and guided

>>>> them to seek small blocks from AFRINIC. This turned out to be a much

>>>> cheaper alternative than going to brokers and folks who lease each IPv4 for

>>>> 30USD without providing any Internet related service to the customer beyond

>>>> dashing out IP's with LOA's.

>>>>

>>>> AFRINIC FYI, does more than just allocating and managing INR. Read

>>>> Bylaws section 3.4 in full to understand her complete objectives as an RIR

>>>> for this region.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> No textbook analogy. IP leasing can allow the enterprise/organizations

>>>>> certain flexibility in administration. Like having a single contiguous

>>>>> range to numbers on all their interfaces and infrastructure either locally

>>>>> and across the cloud, for better administration and scaling of their

>>>>> network they need. This way all their IPs are unique and contiguous, and

>>>>> they can number their offices networks, servers, VPN etc. for easy

>>>>> management.

>>>>>

>>>> So Yes, fully (physical)provider independent. Without the physical

>>>>> connection to provider being involved, that provider will still be there of

>>>>> course, but the end user is not forced to number their LAN with that

>>>>> provider's IP addresses.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Ooooh well.... last I checked ... AFRINIC is provider Independent and

>>>> has alway been.

>>>>

>>>> So I encourage you to encourage those enterprises to reach out to

>>>> AFRINIC. All they need is to become resource members, sign an RSA and

>>>> justify their needs and they will be served.  AFRINIC manager INR transfers

>>>> within the region as well.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> On another note, AFRINIC itself would give out such IP addresses as

>>>>> assignments with the same justifications,  These  provider-independent

>>>>> address space (PI) has some limitations in the current CPM. The PIs

>>>>> assignments are also called "leasing", and well.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> There is no language in the CPM that indicates that PI assignments are

>>>> also called *leasing*. Please point me to such a language.

>>>>

>>>> However, Section 9.0 talks of temporary assignments of not more than

>>>> one month in section 9.2 and this is often done by AFRINIC to support

>>>> Internet related events and capacity building and education activities

>>>> through various Af* initiatives (AIS, NOG's etc) as per the Bylaws section

>>>> 3.4 iv.) v.) and vi.).

>>>>

>>>> This short term assignment as far I know is done for free and AFRINIC

>>>> does not charge the temporary requesters any fees.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> AFRINIC as a non profit organisation should not place itself in direct

>>>>> competition with its members.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Which members is AFRINIC competing with exactly?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> Resource owners are restricted from leasing,

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> There is no such thing as a Resource owner. What there is, is

>>>> Membership.

>>>>

>>>> *Bylaws section 6.1 subsection i.) talks of Membership as below.*

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 6) *MEMBERSHIP*

>>>>

>>>> 6.1) Subject to the other provisions of this Article, membership shall

>>>> be open to:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> *i. any Person who is geographically based within, and providing

>>>> services in the African region, and who is engaged in the use of, or

>>>> business of providing, open system protocol network services;*

>>>>

>>>> So to break down the above for you, the language talks of *engaged in

>>>> the use of* and not leasing or brokering IPv4's but rather ''*use of*"

>>>> meaning using the IP  to provide internet related services in the

>>>> Afrinic region on some network or system infrastructure.

>>>>

>>>> while the registry can lease out space as described in the policy,

>>>>> placing AFRINIC in a very awkward situation.

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> AFRINIC does not lease, it allocates to LIR's and assigns members who

>>>> seek PI INR's....

>>>>

>>>> CPM Section 5.4.6.2 reads as below and still talks of *use*

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> *5.4.6.2 AFRINIC resources are for AFRINIC service region and any use

>>>> outside the region should be solely in support of connectivity back to the

>>>> AFRINIC region*

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Cheers,

>>>> Noah

>>>>

>>>>

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