[rpd] Last Call - RPKI ROAs for Unallocated and Unassigned AFRINIC Address Space AFPUB-2019-GEN-006-DRAFT03.

[Paschal Ochang]

Well said Jordi.

They may be people who do not manage networks but have reasonable
contributions to improve or develop some of the discussions. At least we
have witnessed that some of the policies have been fine tuned by some of
these inputs.

My issue with this proposal is the reclamation statement which I reiterated
in the chat in the meeting that it looks too ambiguous. When it comes to
reclamation there are grey and contentious areas that I think should not be
attributed with this policy.

On Tuesday, June 8, 2021, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net>
wrote:


> Hi Saul,

>

>

>

> While I understand your point, I think that we need to agree that

> sometimes, non-operators, also provide points of view that help to improve

> policies. Also, there may be policies where the discussion will not be well

> balanced if only operators participate, because are not so closely related

> to operation, and instead to how to distribute resources that belong to the

> overall community.

>

>

>

> I will prefer non-anonymous postings, but I also understand that some

> people may not be able to speak freely if they show their real names or

> work email (they may be even fired if their personal view point is against

> the corporate policy, etc.). It’s all about a good balance.

>

>

>

> What definitively is not good is if you are speaking up on behalf of

> others, which has been clear in several discussions and policy

> presentations for the last couple of years or so.

>

>

>

> The issue is how much difficulty is added into the chairs to distinguish

> if an argument pro or against a proposal is valid or not, which means that

> they may need to verify, in some cases, a technical question that is not

> within their competences to ensure if there is lack of knowledge or

> mistaken interpretations from any parties in the discussion.

>

>

>

> However, I’m sure chairs have other folks, work colleagues, staff, or

> experts not involved in the discussion that can help them.

>

>

>

> I think that was part of the difficulty with previous chairs. I’m sure

> they tried their best, but they did some mistakes by accepting objections

> which are clearly technical wrong and not hearing other worldwide

> recognized community experts that clarified it.

>

>

>

> I think it is up to chairs to say, if they think so, “do not reapeat this

> arguments” as we have already decided about being invalid, and clarify what

> is expected in the last call, so to avoid wasting time, as I’ve suggested a

> couple of days ago.

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Jordi

>

> @jordipalet

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> El 8/6/21 9:27, "Saul Stein" <saul at enetworks.co.za> escribió:

>

>

>

> Hi

>

>

>

> I say this as an AFRINIC member who is affected by the policies that are

> either implemented or NOT implemented.

>

>

>

> While I agree with the community, bottom up approach, I am starting to

> have an issue where the term “community” is a little stretched. By that, I

> mean people who are in or out of the region, with apparent little to no

> understanding of networks anonymously (gmail, representing themselves

> without us knowing what networks they run and or manage) holding the

> discussion and policy to ransom.

>

>

>

> I have on issues with people who represent and run networks from anywhere

> willing to assist in the betterment of our policies.

>

>

>

> As someone once said, with freedom, comes responsibility.

>

>

>

> Just my 2c worth

>

>

>

>

>

> *From:* JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net>

> *Sent:* Tuesday, 08 June 2021 08:38

> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net

> *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Last Call - RPKI ROAs for Unallocated and Unassigned

> AFRINIC Address Space AFPUB-2019-GEN-006-DRAFT03.

>

>

>

> (semi-irony mode on)

>

>

>

> Wow, so much difficult problem statement! Some possible responses:

>

>

>

> 1)      Because some people don’t operate networks, or don’t do it

> properly?

>

> 2)      Because some people aren’t interested in understanding it or not

> interested in measures to protect resources, because that will make easy to

> avoid their improper business models (or even maybe bad activities)?

>

> 3)      Because some people are speaking on behalf others?

>

>

>

> And all this explains inmature and unreaseanable objections not just to

> this policy proposal, but to any proposal that try to facilitate the

> accuracy of the RIRs and simplify the job of good faith operators in a

> standard way.

>

>

>

> Policies aren’t meant to protect business, specially those against the

> overall community interest. If you’re doing something wrong or in the limit

> of what is acceptable, you don’t have interest in certain policies.

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Jordi

>

> @jordipalet

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> El 8/6/21 8:24, "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> escribió:

>

>

>

> Well said Frank!

>

> I still don't understand why some people don't see this.

>

> On 6/8/21 8:01 AM, Frank Habicht wrote:

>

> Hi

>

>

>

> On 08/06/2021 01:45, Daniel Yakmut via RPD wrote:

>

> Hi,

>

>

>

> Are you postulating here that Resources not allocated are susceptible to

>

> hijack?

>

> - resources are susceptible to hijack.

>

> - if a ROA with AS0 was published for an unallocated resource, it would

>

>    be less susceptible to hijack.

>

>

>

>

>

> My other understanding is an RIR is a resource dispenser.

>

> When I get my next resource from AfriNIC, I will prefer one that was not

>

> previously hijacked and used for spamming and network abuse, and got

>

> blacklisted and a bad reputation everywhere.

>

>

>

> What about you?

>

>

>

>

>

> Thanks,

>

> Frank

>

>

>

>

>

> Simply

>

> Daniel

>

>

>

> On Mon, Jun 7, 2021, 11:30 PM Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com

>

> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com> <fhfrediani at gmail.com>> wrote:

>

>

>

>     AfriNic (or any other RIR) is the resource holder for IP space that

>

>     IANA has allocated to it. So who else could secure that space until

>

>     it is assigned to an organization issuing ROAs if not the current

>

>     resource holder ?

>

>

>

>     Must we have a policy accepted by either RIPE or ARIN first in order

>

>     to accept it in AfriNic afterwards ?

>

>     This is not a worry to the RIR, it is actually an additional

>

>     guarantee that no one else will try to make usage of IP space under

>

>     its responsability.

>

>

>

>     Fernando

>

>

>

>     On 07/06/2021 19:14, Daniel Yakmut via RPD wrote:

>

>     Dear Jordi,

>

>

>

>     Just out of curiosity why has RIPE and ARIN refused to adopt the

>

>     RPKI ROA and make it their responsibility that it is used by

>

>     resource holder?. I will agree that RPKI ROA is a good tool to

>

>     secure BGP routing, however I don't see as the responsibility of

>

>     an RIR to implement it.

>

>

>

>     My strong opinion is that any resource holder should be

>

>     responsible for securing its resources and if RPKI ROA is the best

>

>     way to prevent hijack, then it will enjoy patronage. Making it a

>

>     job of AfriNIC, will possibly be going over board.

>

>

>

>     Responding to my opening question, I believe RIPE and ARIN are not

>

>     keen on accepting your arguments because they are mundane. This

>

>     means resource holders should handle this issue, without making it

>

>     a worry of the RIR.

>

>

>

>     In this regard, AfriNIC should concentrate on handling other more

>

>     important issues, hence this policy is not relevant.

>

>

>

>

>

>     Simply

>

>

>

>     Daniel

>

>

>

>     On 07/06/2021 6:3pm, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:

>

>     Ni Mimi,____

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     No, is not ideological, the legal counsel already confirmed the

>

>     being bookkeepers has many other **related** implications, such

>

>     as provide a trustable source of accurate data, and this is what

>

>     RPKI and AS0 improve.____

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     The fact that in RIPE has not been accepted yet is just one more

>

>     excuse, if you compare it with the fact that the other TWO RIRs

>

>     where it has been submitted (APNIC and LACNIC) accepted it and in

>

>     none of those regions there have been any of the excuses and lack

>

>     of knowledge about RPKI that we are hearing here. As I’ve

>

>     explained already, I don’t think the RIPE chairs decision was

>

>     correct, and we will make sure to resubmit the proposal there

>

>     once a consistent appeal process is available, in case chairs

>

>     take again a wrong decision. Also, then the experience in APNIC,

>

>     LACNIC and AFRINIC will show that those motivations are

>

>     ridiculous.____

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     From time to time is good that ARIN and RIPE aren’t the leaders,

>

>     you don’t think so? It shows that very smart people exist in

>

>     other regions as well!____

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     Once more, sometimes policies in one or the other region fail to

>

>     reach consensus, but it happens sooner or later.____

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     If you have a simple and trustable tool such as RPKI to drop

>

>     invalids, you have a better way (if you want) to avoid bad actors

>

>     to use prefixes that don’t belong to them as they are still on

>

>     the hands of AFRINIC. This is just facts. Not ideological, not

>

>     opinions or personal view points. So yes, AS0 avoids, if you

>

>     operate your network in a consistent way, to be faked with

>

>     prefixes not allocated/assigned by AFRINIC, and thus helps to

>

>     prevent hijacking.____

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     Regards,____

>

>

>

>     Jordi____

>

>

>

>     @jordipalet____

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     El 7/6/21 18:47, "Mimi dy" <dym5328 at gmail.com

>

>     <mailto:dym5328 at gmail.com> <dym5328 at gmail.com>> escribió:____

>

>

>

>     __ __

>

>

>

>     Dear WG,____

>

>

>

>      ____

>

>

>

>     I think the issue here is ideological. Many people believe that

>

>     RIRs are mere bookkeepers, and it is not in their mandate to

>

>     inject data into the routing database. That is the reason why

>

>     RIPE did not approve a similar proposal, which I totally agree

>

>     with. Moreover, I wanted to react to Jordi’s statement, saying

>

>     that these objections are based on practical and technical

>

>     matters. There is not only one routing database, there are many,

>

>     isn’t it kind of messy? And that is not even the main reason why

>

>     I object to this policy. ____

>

>

>

>     From another perspective, since people can adjust and control

>

>     their routers, can you precise how this policy can potentially

>

>     prevent/ reduce hijacking?____

>

>

>

>      ____

>

>

>

>     Best.____

>

>

>

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> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa

> mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496>

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-- 
Kind regards,

Paschal.
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