Search RPD Archives
[rpd] Reversal of Consensus on Resource Transfer Policy
Sami Ait Ali Oulahcen
sami at marwan.ma
Tue Oct 20 15:49:54 UTC 2020
+1
On 10/20/20 4:36 PM, Jaco Kroon wrote:
> Hi Abdul,
>
> With all due respect to both yourself and Fernando. I personally think
> you're both right, and both wrong.
>
> Please just stop and read Abdul.
>
> 1. Yes, it's crazy/absurd that it's come to this.
>
> 2. No, the change was made at/after the PPM and straight into last
> call. So whether or not this was made prior to last call or during last
> call is actually irrelevant.
>
> 3. The first opportunity many of us had to see this legacy change was
> during last call.
>
> 4. Many of us acknowledge the need for change to the legacy no longer
> clause but we don't agree with the change as has been taken to last
> call. Many alternatives that would also achieve reciprocity has been
> proposed.
>
> 5. I have actually re-read CPM section 3 last night, and have already
> highlighted that changes are neither permitted nor prevented, but I
> believe some common sense here should prevail in that from the CPM it's
> plain that the intention is for final review, and that any concerns
> raised that's valid should have the proposal go back to discussion.
>
> 6. I disagree that your actions are duly justified, but I can see from
> your perspective why you believe this to be the case.
>
> 7. This is however irrelevant as there is plainly not consensus on a
> policy proposal in last call, and this has been the case from the moment
> it went to last call, so when you took it to ratification, there is
> absolutely no way this could have been in line with the CPM process, and
> if it was, then I would propose that we revisit that and fix that too.
>
> 8. You had the sense to revert the ratification decision. Now we're
> asking you to have the sense to realise that there isn't consensus and
> bring the proposal (along with the other inter-RIR transfer policies)
> back to discussion.
>
> 9. I'm not sure what the conditions was, but either the conditions were
> wrong, or the implementation thereof was wrong. Specifically:
>
> 10. Retaining legacy status is all good and well on outbound transfers
> (Afrinic can't prescribe to other RIRs), but we don't want to have
> legacy status retained on intra-RIR or inbound transfers. Jordi pointed
> out that if any intra-RIR transfers of legacy space has happened the
> change would be detrimental to those that have transferred, and the
> change is thus a complete reversal of previous policy. I for one,
> speaking on behalf of my employer, have no interest in paying fees when
> legacy holders get most of the same services for free.
>
> Yes, I do wish we could finalize this, I don't think anybody is
> disputing that we urgently need this. But in spite of how much it's
> going to hurt to need this and not have it, having it in a non-working
> state is even worse.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Jaco
>
> On 2020/10/20 16:11, ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE wrote:
>>
>> Dear Fernando.
>>
>> See my comments inline
>>
>> The thing is so absurd that now we have the justification based that
>> "Editoral word" doesn't appear in the CPM, therefore in the
>> interpretation of one of the chairs it can just be used to change the
>> text anytime in any way at convenience. They call it "diverse
>> definition". Perhaps this is yet another sign that there is not enough
>> experience to conduct the business of CPM and so why so many mistakes
>> have been made.
>>
>> I think it is your justification here that is absurd. Yes, it is true
>> that it does not appear in the CPM or do you want to rewrite the CPM?
>> and I think this is a typical example that you do not have enough
>> leadership experience to understand that: been elected to a position
>> of responsibility comes with the fact that one has to take decisions
>> on behalf of the community. Be clear we never made a single mistake
>> on this issue and all our actions are duly justified.
>>
>> Been elected by the community is not a mandate to do things the way
>> they feel like and to make up stuff that may not have the expected
>> words in the CPM.
>> The idea of using Editorial changes as normal changes to try make the
>> text achieve consensus is so out of touch that has been mentioned as
>> unprecedented many times by several people here before. Everybody used
>> with these forums in any RIR and other organizations know very well
>> what editorial changes are for and definetelly is not to make a
>> proposal try to reach consensus. Trying to force it to be something
>> else will not work.
>>
>> Been elected by the community is enough mandate that we have the
>> confidence of the community and when there is a disagreement to step
>> in line with the CPM and not using /Fernando's/ idea. Read the CPM
>> clearly more especially section 3.6.
>>
>> Legacy status issue doesn't even deserve discussion of its merit at
>> this point because it was changed after the PPM. This is a major
>> change in the proposal, been done after the PPM and can NOT be
>> considered just a a simple "Editorial change". This changes one of the
>> fundamental points o the proposal, at last minute, given no time for
>> discussion for the community, and worse: this was something that had
>> NEVER been mentioned before in months and months of discussion.
>>
>> Be clear, The changes in regards to the legacy status was done before
>> going into the last call. Please read again the condition for the
>> proposal to go into the last call. It was made very clear. Provided
>> those changes are made then the proposal goes into the last call.
>> Therefore it was before the last call. Please don't try and
>> manipulate or create confusion here. If you have any objection to the
>> proposal state them and stop this cheap blackmail.
>>
>> There are more than enough violations of the PDP for their decision to
>> be ruled out by the Appeal Committee.
>>
>> It seems that you are now not just attempting to take over as the WG
>> chair, but also the Appeal committe chair and member.
>>
>> Good luck to you on that
>>
>> Fernando
>>
>> Co-Chair
>>
>> PDWG
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 2:02 PM Fernando Frediani
>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> The thing is so absurd that now we have the justification based
>> that "Editoral word" doesn't appear in the CPM, therefore in the
>> interpretation of one of the chairs it can just be used to change
>> the text anytime in any way at convenience. They call it "diverse
>> definition". Perhaps this is yet another sign that there is not
>> enough experience to conduct the business of CPM and so why so
>> many mistakes have been made.
>>
>> Been elected by the community is not a mandate to do things the
>> way they feel like and to make up stuff that may not have the
>> expected words in the CPM.
>> The idea of using Editorial changes as normal changes to try make
>> the text achieve consensus is so out of touch that has been
>> mentioned as unprecedented many times by several people here
>> before. Everybody used with these forums in any RIR and other
>> organizations know very well what editorial changes are for and
>> definetelly is not to make a proposal try to reach consensus.
>> Trying to force it to be something else will not work.
>>
>> Legacy status issue doesn't even deserve discussion of its merit
>> at this point because it was changed after the PPM. This is a
>> major change in the proposal, been done after the PPM and can NOT
>> be considered just a a simple "Editorial change". This changes one
>> of the fundamental points o the proposal, at last minute, given no
>> time for discussion for the community, and worse: this was
>> something that had NEVER been mentioned before in months and
>> months of discussion.
>>
>> There are more than enough violations of the PDP for their
>> decision to be ruled out by the Appeal Committee.
>>
>> Fernando
>>
>> On 20/10/2020 04:29, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi AK,
>>>
>>> I’m not sure if you followed the thread in ARIN.
>>>
>>> There it was clearly said by the CEO, John Curran, that the
>>> actual version is not reciprocal.
>>>
>>> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/2020-October/068124.html
>>> <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/2020-October/068124.html>
>>>
>>> I don’t think it is a matter of just one paragraph rewording. I
>>> already told this to the authors. There are several conflicting
>>> paragraphs that need to be reworded to make the complete text
>>> coherent.
>>>
>>> You say that the main opponents are the other proposal authors,
>>> of course, it can’t be other way, because everybody is convinced,
>>> they are right.
>>>
>>> However, you’re missing that despite that, I’ve been trying to
>>> help Anthony and Taiwo (they can confirm), even if I think that
>>> the way you’re handling this is not correct according to the PDP
>>> (and this brough me the additional problem of some other people
>>> very angry with me – they don’t understand that I’m trying the
>>> best for the community not for the authors a, b, or c).
>>>
>>> So those are two separate issues (helping to improve the proposal
>>> and doing it in a way that is according to the PDP without any
>>> trace of “PDP illegality”).
>>>
>>> Regarding the legacy there is a wrong working in the text. The
>>> intent was to keep the same situation as we have now for
>>> Intra-RIR, otherwise is not fair with existing transfers and you
>>> need to add some more text to somehow compensate them. So the
>>> text should be “5.7.4.3 Incoming transferred legacy resources
>>> will no longer be regarded as legacy resources”. This way you
>>> keep the reciprocity/compatibility with all the regions but at
>>> the same time, you keep the actual status in AFRINIC compared
>>> with the existing Intra-RIR policy (incomming works for both
>>> inter and intra – we did the same in LACNIC).
>>>
>>> At this point I’m more and more convinced that, unless a new
>>> version is processed in this “last-call” extension, it will not
>>> work, but on the other side, I’m convinced that those are not
>>> just editorial changes and it means is not the right way to
>>> handle this.
>>>
>>> I shall insist that the right thing to do at this point is to
>>> declare no-consensus and ask the board to call in December
>>> (sufficient time to prepare for it, and to have a new version, or
>>> even a new policy) for a specific policy meeting just for this
>>> proposal and concentrate the list in discussing all the issues
>>> and a text that we all can agree. Again is not a matter of
>>> authors it is a matter of having the right thing for the community.
>>>
>>> I could even suggest that we all the authors of the 3 proposals
>>> get together and find an agreement on this in a single text good
>>> for all. At least we must try. You know that I already suggested
>>> this before the Angola meeting.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jordi
>>>
>>> @jordipalet
>>>
>>> El 20/10/20 8:21, "ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE"
>>> <oloyede.aa at unilorin.edu.ng <mailto:oloyede.aa at unilorin.edu.ng>>
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>> Dear Sander and Community,
>>>
>>> We would take my time to respond to you as you hold our
>>> equivalent seat in the RIPE region;
>>>
>>> As per the transfer policy, only about two or three issues were
>>> raised during the last call.
>>>
>>> 1. The problem statement looks like a business problem statement:
>>>
>>> Outcome: The problem statement does not go into the CPM hence, it
>>> does not matter
>>>
>>> 2. Issues with Legacy holders: This is a tricky one and there are
>>> no right or wrong answers about it. Legacy holder remanning
>>> legacy holder, some feel is not fair, Legacy holder not
>>> remanning legacy holders some feel it would be better. On this
>>> issue, we have gone back and forward on it because of the diverse
>>> views of the community even as co-chairs we hold a diverse view
>>> on this because both have advantages and disadvantages.
>>> Personally, I have had to change my view on this issue when I got
>>> a superior argument but I have not allowed my personal view to
>>> have any effect on the decision we take on this issue. The
>>> authors indicated that they do not mind whichever way the
>>> community goes on this issue. Originally on the proposal, they
>>> indicated "legacy holders should not remain legacy holders" they
>>> were asked to change this and they also did. Therefore this issue
>>> of Legacy holders can to be discussed separately more importantly
>>> when there is no right or wrong answer on it and the authors have
>>> been very flexible on this issue. The decision on this issue has
>>> been addressed in relation to the transfer policy but it can
>>> still be amended if the community agrees now or later in future.
>>> We just have to go with the majority for now since no right or
>>> wrong answer from our view. We see how this goes.
>>>
>>> Finally, on the issue of reciprocity, As far as we all know, the
>>> policy has no reciprocity issue and if any is pointed out then it
>>> can be fixed. We keep getting a vague response regarding this
>>> issue and we cannot wait forever on this.
>>>
>>> If anyone knows of any other issue raised that has not been
>>> fixed apart from emotional issues, please let us know.
>>>
>>> People kept on shouting about what is "Editorial" changes and
>>> what is not, *but the word "Editorial" is not even in the CPM*.
>>> Therefore it is subjected to a diverse definition. In this case,
>>> we as co-chairs elected by the community has to step forward cos
>>> this is our role. To take decisions on behalf of the community in
>>> situations like this. Unfortunately, some people want to take
>>> over this role. We have two co-chairs for a reason and am sure
>>> we both cant be stupid. Some said we should follow the convention
>>> on this issue, we said "/Ok no problem/", Unfortunately, when we
>>> reversed our decision it was the same person that criticised us
>>> as if previous chairs never had reason to reverse their decisions.
>>>
>>> As far as we can see the main opponents of this proposal are
>>> those that have a conflicting proposal and it is impossible for
>>> all three proposals to pass. I hope they get this, We all love
>>> the community and should not think some do more than the others.
>>> We as Co-Chairs have to make a tough but rational decision as to
>>> which of the three is most acceptable to the community. I have
>>> explained this several times and no one as brought forward a
>>> superior argument rather they keep chasing shadows, we took the
>>> decision based on the proposal with the least number of
>>> objections to it. More importantly, the authors have been very
>>> flexible in making changes as suggested by the community.
>>>
>>> We have consistently asked, Please tell us any issue that has not
>>> been fixed with this proposal and rather than getting a direct
>>> answer what we get is you broke the CPM. We ask again point us to
>>> the CPM we broke they cant point us to any.
>>>
>>> We understand that as shepherds for the community, we have to
>>> take tough decisions and we are ready to do that as long as it is
>>> in the best interest of the community.
>>>
>>> My humble suggestion to the community is that we now have time to
>>> review this policy which is still on the last call. *Let us spend
>>> our energy and time to review this in the interest of the
>>> community and leave behind personal and selfish issues and stop
>>> chasing shadows.*
>>>
>>> Hence, we call on the authors of the proposal to start a new
>>> thread with the proposed text and allow for a line by line
>>> discussion so that we can put this behind us and address other
>>> issues that require the attention of the community.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Co-Chair PDWG
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:33 PM Sander Steffann
>>> <sander at steffann.nl <mailto:sander at steffann.nl>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 18-10-2020 12:08, dc at darwincosta.com
>>> <mailto:dc at darwincosta.com> wrote:
>>> > Dear Abdul,
>>> >
>>> > Can you tell us on what basis you declared rough consensus and
>>> > eventually consensus on this proposal only to comeback and
>>> reverse the
>>> > decision....
>>> >
>>> > Maybe I’m missing something and your clarification is much
>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>> This would indeed be very helpful. Abdul: please provide
>>> pointers to the
>>> messages on the mailing list where issues were raised and to the
>>> messages those issues were addressed. After all: that is the
>>> basis of
>>> consensus.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sander
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RPD mailing list
>>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>>
>>> Website <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng>, Weekly Bulletin
>>> <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng/index.php/bulletin> UGPortal
>>> <http://uilugportal.unilorin.edu.ng/> PGPortal
>>> <https://uilpgportal.unilorin.edu.ng/>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ RPD mailing list
>>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>>
>>>
>>> **********************************************
>>> IPv4 is over
>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>>> The IPv6 Company
>>>
>>> This electronic message contains information which may be
>>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
>>> the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
>>> non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or
>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially,
>>> including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be
>>> considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or
>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially,
>>> including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be
>>> considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original
>>> sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RPD mailing list
>>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RPD mailing list
>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>
>>
>> Website <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng>,Weekly Bulletin
>> <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng/index.php/bulletin> UGPortal
>> <http://uilugportal.unilorin.edu.ng/> PGPortal
>> <https://uilpgportal.unilorin.edu.ng/>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RPD mailing list
>> RPD at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>
More information about the RPD
mailing list