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[rpd] Reversal of Consensus on Resource Transfer Policy

Frank Habicht geier at geier.ne.tz
Mon Oct 19 10:06:03 UTC 2020


Hi,

On 19/10/2020 12:23, Ekaterina Kalugina wrote:

> The first fact is that making changes to the policy during the last call

> is not prohibited by the CPM. And it is in the spirit of the law to make

> the necessary changes during the last call. 


I disagree (as stated before) and I look forward to your arguments
supporting this assertion.
Because "necessary" might mean extensive, which I say is no permitted by
the spirit of the law. You stating the opposite will not convince me
otherwise.

...


> Thirdly, the fact that the policy addresses "almost all"  concerns does

> not disqualify it from being on the last call. The policy is moved onto

> the last call when a rough consensus is achieved. And rough consensus

> does not imply that everyone must agree.


But it means that all valid concerns should have been addressed.


> It means that there should be a

> sense of general agreement as per the determination of the chairs. Which

> we had.

>

>  Then the policy is moved to the last call where it is then edited so

> that a proper consensus could be achieved.


the consensus has to be there already, and editorial changes (agreed
upon) can be done. not bigger changes. Trust me.


> Since this have proved to be

> tenuous journey, it only makes sense that the chairs have extended the

> last call to make sure that all of the issues were properly addressed. 


Has anybody done that, until now?


> And this is what we should focus on: let us try to find a compromise on

> this issue that can satisfy all of us as much as possible. Let us

> discuss the policy in question, raise all  the concerns that still

> remain and try to find the best solution for the region


I believe some were raised and not yet addressed.

Frank



>

> Best, 

>

> Ekaterina 

>

> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 09:28 Daniel Yakmut via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net

> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:

>

> I use Gmail, because i don't want to clog my official mailbox with

> irrelevances. However, I can't be label suspect.

>

> If you do not know the person, and is of interest to you then make

> effort to reach out to the person. Note, there maybe ghost IDs.

>

> On 19/10/2020 7:58 am, Mark Elkins wrote:

>>

>> Mike, I agree with your summary. I'd also add that people who use

>> gmail addresses also add a little suspicion unless I actually know

>> them.

>>

>> On 2020/10/19 08:36, Mike Silber wrote:

>>> Amazing that my mail to “Lamiaa” is answered by “Lucilla” (with a

>>> quick response by “Gabi”).

>>>

>>> This is a response to the list, as I see little point in

>>> responding to an identity whose provenance and identity is still

>>> uncertain.

>>>

>>> I relish different opinions. For example - my friend Noah and I

>>> disagree on many things. However:

>>>

>>> - I have met him;

>>> - I have been on calls with him;

>>> - I know what networks he operates;

>>> - I know his technical background and experience.

>>>

>>> So when we disagree, I have to afford him the respect he deserves

>>> because I have data. I either understand his perspective (even

>>> though I think it may be wrong) or at least I understand his

>>> motivations.

>>>

>>> Through it all - he has worked to earn the respect of all of us

>>> by his commitment to the community and the process.

>>>

>>> However, with you and your echo chamber and despite the cutesy

>>> introductions when I first raised my concern - I have never met

>>> you, never been on a call with you, don’t know what network you

>>> operate or your technical expertise. I don’t have any inclination

>>> of your perspective or motivation.

>>>

>>> As such, it seems that your (collective) motivation is to

>>> manipulate the process towards a particular objective.

>>>

>>> This is not the first time the mailing list has been manipulated

>>> and I am sure it won’t be the last. Some people I call (or used

>>> to call) friends have used sock puppets to manipulate process and

>>> spew hatred.

>>>

>>> I am calling it out here because I think we have a problem that

>>> we have just swept under the rug before - we allow identities

>>> without confirmation to participate.

>>>

>>> For example - ICANN working groups have developed a “statement of

>>> interest” requirement for participation that tries to filter sock

>>> puppets and force disclosure of interest.

>>>

>>> I think that the situation in the PDP has become so toxic that a

>>> similar requirement may be necessary.

>>>

>>> Mike

>>>

>>> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 04:58, lucilla fornaro

>>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com

>>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:

>>>

>>> Dear Mike, 

>>>

>>> Let me understand your point of view.

>>> So, agreeing with someone else means belonging to a “puppet

>>> echo chamber” (which is an insult itself!)?

>>>

>>> You talk about respect and objectiveness when you are

>>> insinuating the false and lacking respect for anyone who has

>>> a different opinion from you.

>>>

>>> This is not a private talk at a coffee shop, you cannot cut

>>> out from the conversation people who disagree with you. You

>>> are accusing some members of pushing a proposal you disagree

>>> with and according to you, this means we belong to a kind of

>>> strange conspiracy gang. If I had a lot of free time I may

>>> end up thinking you are doing exactly the same by rejecting it. 

>>>

>>> Luckily, this is not a cult, this Afrinic and surprise

>>> surprise, Afrinic is a welcoming open community where

>>> DIFFERENT OPINIONS are not only accepted but encouraged. 

>>>

>>> Members have been consistently asking for more time and once

>>> they’ve received it they KEPT COMPLAINING because they now

>>> want something else. So my question is, what game are you

>>> playing? Because if there is something suspicious here, it

>>> comes from you and those who are equally confused about what

>>> they want. At least, my ideas are explicit.

>>>

>>> I think there are enough childish quarrels, if you are really

>>> genuinely interested in Afrinic it is time to accept that

>>> someone may disagree with you.

>>>

>>> regards,

>>>

>>> Lucilla

>>>

>>> Il giorno dom 18 ott 2020 alle ore 20:47 Mike Silber

>>> <silber.mike at gmail.com <mailto:silber.mike at gmail.com>> ha

>>> scritto:

>>>

>>> Lamiaa 

>>>

>>> Thanks for confirming (yet again) to the list members

>>> that you and several others seem to serve as an echo

>>> chamber for each other and for little other purpose -

>>> other than an attempt to manipulate the PDP.

>>>

>>> Objectively there was nothing offensive or constituting a

>>> personal attack in what Fernando said and attempting to

>>> amplify that lie is offensive to all of us who engage in

>>> robust discussion on this list.

>>>

>>> As for your opinions on the appeal, frankly they are

>>> irrelevant. Hopefully the appeal committee will be

>>> objective and not manipulated by your echo chamber.

>>>

>>> While I appreciate the co-chairs extension of the last

>>> call period, as others have pointed out, the extension

>>> does not substantively change the decision against which

>>> the appeal has been lodged.

>>>

>>> Mike

>>>

>>> Sitting back and waiting for the flames from the sock

>>> puppet echo chamber 

>>>

>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 12:35, Lamiaa Chnayti

>>> <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com

>>> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> wrote:

>>>

>>> Hello Fernando,

>>>

>>> First of all, I would like to report to the chairs

>>> your improper behaviour that consists of personally

>>> attacking and offending Lucilla. This should be taken

>>> seriously and shouldn’t go unnoticed so as to

>>> maintain a fair and sensible discussion on the list.

>>>

>>> I would also like to point out that now that the

>>> chairs have amended their decision, the appeal has

>>> become invalid. 

>>>

>>> Please start showing a little respect for what the

>>> chairs are doing. Everything they voluntarily do is

>>> for the sake of this community.

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>>

>>> Lamiaa

>>>

>>> Le dim. 18 oct. 2020 à 00:20, Fernando Frediani

>>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>

>>> a écrit :

>>>

>>> Do not deceive yourself. There is an appeal

>>> ongoing before any possible ratification.

>>>

>>> Fernando

>>>

>>>

>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020, 20:12 lucilla fornaro,

>>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com

>>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:

>>>

>>> No, what I meant is that we’ve been

>>> discussing for weeks, the end of the last

>>> call has been already announced. 

>>> Co-chairs shouldn’t make any changes to that

>>> decision. The policy shall now move to

>>> ratification. 

>>>

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>>

>>> Lucilla 

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>> *Da:* dc at darwincosta.com

>>> <mailto:dc at darwincosta.com>

>>> <dc at darwincosta.com <mailto:dc at darwincosta.com>>

>>> *Inviato:* domenica, ottobre 18, 2020 2:49 AM

>>> *A:* lucilla fornaro

>>> *Cc:* ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE; rpd List

>>> *Oggetto:* Re: [rpd] Reversal of Consensus on

>>> Resource Transfer Policy

>>>  

>>>

>>>> On 17 Oct 2020, at 19:36, lucilla fornaro

>>>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com

>>>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>>

>>>> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> 

>>>> Dear Co-chair, dear community,

>>>>

>>>> I disagree with this extension of one week.

>>>> I don’t see how this further week can do any

>>>> good to a discussion that has already

>>>> reached its purpose.

>>>> It is clear that the community members have

>>>> had exhaustive time to discuss the policy.

>>>>

>>>> The end of the last call for this policy has

>>>> already been declared and we should keep

>>>> moving forward from that.

>>> I guess you meant send it back to discussion?

>>> I have previously asked the Co-chair to share

>>> with the community facts & figures on how

>>> this proposal have reached consensus... Until

>>> now, we have not seen nothing on this

>>> regards... 

>>>

>>> Luckily there is an appeal submitted.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Regards,

>>>>

>>>> Lucilla 

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>> Darwin-.

>>>

>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>> *Da:* ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE

>>>> <oloyede.aa at unilorin.edu.ng

>>>> <mailto:oloyede.aa at unilorin.edu.ng>>

>>>> *Inviato:* domenica, ottobre 18, 2020 1:03 AM

>>>> *A:* rpd List

>>>> *Oggetto:* [rpd] Reversal of Consensus on

>>>> Resource Transfer Policy

>>>>  

>>>> Dear colleagues,

>>>>

>>>> Despite our belief that this policy has

>>>> covered almost all of the concerns raised

>>>> especially the major objections, we would

>>>> like to give the community more time to

>>>> discern after considering the community's

>>>> feedback on the consensus declared on the 

>>>> Resource Transfer Polic. 

>>>>

>>>> We, the co-chairs, have changed our decision

>>>> and opt to extend the last call for one more

>>>> week for prudence's sake. 

>>>>

>>>> Thank you.

>>>>

>>>> Co-Chair 

>>>> PDWG

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Website <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng>, Weekly

>>>> Bulletin

>>>> <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng/index.php/bulletin> UGPortal

>>>> <http://uilugportal.unilorin.edu.ng/>

>>>> PGPortal <https://uilpgportal.unilorin.edu.ng/>

>>>>

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>>> --

>>> Lamiaa CHNAYTI

>>>

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>> --

>>

>> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa

>> mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>       Tel: +27.826010496

>> <tel:+27826010496>

>> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA:

>> https://ftth.posix.co.za <https://ftth.posix.co.za>

>>

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>>

>>

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