[rpd] Transfer Policy Proposal v.3.docx

[lucilla fornaro]

dear all,


Without being catastrophic, I believe that the activities for which the
African economy requires resources are mostly different from Latin America,
and differently should be managed.

We cannot predict when it will happen, and this should be the main reason
to solve the problem now that we have time to manage it properly.
The resource transfer policy proposed by Anthony and Taiwo aims to build a
stable and effective resources management system for the Afrinic service
region. If we start working for the resource problem now, no matter of
issues that will potentially come up (like with any other policy), there
will be space to improve them in the future.

regards,

Lucilla

Il giorno lun 28 set 2020 alle ore 10:02 Fernando Frediani <
fhfrediani at gmail.com> ha scritto:


> There is no "information" between quotes. If you don't believe in it check

> on LACNIC website on your own.

>

> What a terrible scenario is painted here where it could be "terrible" not

> having a Inter-RIR transfer policy as soon as possible.

> There is still IP space at a lower pace and there are internal transfers.

> Clearly a Inter-RIR transfer can wait a few more months in order to get it

> right rather than rush and get a bad policy. Co-Chairs deciding "the region

> needs a transfer policy" shows there is some rush in it that can be delayed

> if they re-think and bring it back to discussion to try to really find a

> rough consensus which is far form existing right now.

>

> It is not correct this proposal "works very well". There are serious

> doubts, lacks confirmation from staff and other RIRs and there has been a

> very serious change in the very last minute not giving anyone else chance

> to discuss. So clearly this proposal is far from ready to reach consensus.

>

> Fernando

> On 26/09/2020 01:53, Ibeanusi Elvis wrote:

>

> @Fernando,

>

> If you are said you never mentioned not to do anything, what then are you

> implying by saying that “It took LACNIC 3years and 6months before they ran

> out completely”. So we should wait for ours to almost run out and drag the

> process along before we do something about it? This scenario is not as

> terrible? Rethink and review the scenario again, judging by the

> “information” you gave to us using LACNIC, it might not have been bad or

> terrible for them, but it might be for us. They might have survived but we

> might not. Put that into consideration as well.

>

> Also, the Resource Transfer Policy proposed by Anthony and Taiwo works

> very well and there is no rush into anything.

>

> The outcome might not be the same for everyone.

>

> Elvis

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Sep 26, 2020, at 13:03, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

> <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> I never mentioned "not do to anything", just to get the things right

> rather than rush,even if it takes a couple of more months.

> It is much worst to get a bad policy than have none. The examples I put

> was to show that this scenario is not as terrible as some people are

> putting as almost if the internet was going to stop work if this policy

> doesn't advance.

>

> Even if it takes a couple more of months to get that things right and out

> of this mess it will not be a big deal at all for the region.

> It's not true this proposal works. It still lacks confirmations specially

> from other RIRs.

> "Many more years" is of course an exaggeration on your side and we are

> talking about months rather than years which surely will not hurt.

>

> The legacy stuff is currently like this: it loses its status, it is like

> this in other places as well which shows this is the obvious thing to keep.

> This was never mentioned in the discussion of this proposal for months and

> changed at the very last minute which gives no chance to others to equally

> oppose. If there is something to be discussed in another proposal is if the

> current status should change or not, not what is being trying to be done at

> rush.

>

> There is no "forcing them to lose their legacy status". Whoever sell them

> don't care other than the money they receive. Whoever receives is only

> interested in the usage of the resources. What is being said about this is

> not correct how things really are in practical.

>

> Fernando

> On 26/09/2020 00:47, Ibeanusi Elvis wrote:

>

> Dear Fernando,

>

> "When LACNIC transitioned from Phase 2 to Phase 3 of the exhaustion phases

> which is very similar to what just happened to AfriNic Phase 2, it took

> exactly *3 years and 6 months* for it to be completely empty”.

>

> According to what you are insinuating, it is preferable not to do anything

> about the resources which are still going to exhaust. Thats makes no sense,

> it will be better if preparations are made prior to the entire exhaustion

> of the resources. LACNIC might have lasted 3 years and 6months before it

> completely emptied that does not mean we should take the same route as

> them, you learn from others not entirely copy their system or mode of

> handling things.

>

> Additionally, “good or not organisation survived, found their way to work

> with this new scenario now there is a proper and well discussed proposal

> that works well for everybody and allow in and out transfer from ALL other

> RIRs”

>

> The fact that the organisation survived does not 100% imply that if the

> same system of waiting till everything ends entirely is applied, AFRINIC

> will survive. It is best to take early necessary precautions and not wait

> till when we are in a desperate and maybe unsurvivable state before we do

> something. Also, this proposal is well detailed and works. Waiting for many

> more years and years of discussion is just compounding the staffs of the

> AFRINIC organisation and the community with excessive work as well.

>

> Regarding the legacy resource holders, it is better to have a dedicated

> legacy proposal for them and work with them not forcing them to lose their

> legacy status.

>

> Elvis

>

>

> Consider that LACNIC has a much higher demand than AfriNic and during most

> of these 3 years it survived without a Inter-RIR policy that was discussed

> for quiet a while before it reached consensus, plus the time it took for it

> to be implemented by staff which happened just recently in middle of this

> year.On Sep 26, 2020, at 11:39, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

> wrote:

>

> A couple of information for those who are scary about "the pool be empty

> shortly".

>

> When LACNIC transitioned from Phase 2 to Phase 3 of the exhaustion phases

> which is very similar to what just happened to AfriNic Phase 2, it took

> exactly *3 years and 6 months* for it to be completely empty.

> Consider that LACNIC has a much higher demand than AfriNic and during most

> of these 3 years it survived without a Inter-RIR policy that was discussed

> for quiet a while before it reached consensus, plus the time it took for it

> to be implemented by staff which happened just recently in middle of this

> year.

>

> Good or not organizations survived, found their way to work with this new

> scenario e now there is a proper and well discussed proposal that work well

> for everybody and allow in and out transfer from ALL other RIRs. And by the

> way legacy resources lose its status like is expected.

> And by the way, there is absolutely no "fight" with legacy resource

> holders, not at all. They don't care what will happen when they sell their

> resources on sold. Whoever is buying are not really much interested in this

> status, but in acquiring them for their usage and that's it.

>

> AfriNic can take some more time, specially in the current uncertainty

> scenario to get a proper and better discussed proposal that will in fact be

> reciprocal to all other RIRs and benefit the region to keep going after the

> pool is completely empty which still takes some time.

>

> Fernando

> On 25/09/2020 22:08, lucilla fornaro wrote:

>

> Dear all,

>

> Accepting this policy implies that AFRINIC will develop a way to get even

> more resources to satisfy and push the demand of the developing market.

> We often talked about smoother business (why the community is so scared

> about this word?) operations, the policy does not facilitate any fraud. All

> resources are allocated and transferred in the base of a proven need. It is

> an expensive process, and it is reasonable to think that no one would

> operate a fraud that causes loss instead of benefits.

>

> Yes, shortly the pool will be empty, but the policy proposes a way to

> fight it and promote access to further resources before it's too late.

>

> regards,

>

> Lucilla

>

> Il giorno sab 26 set 2020 alle ore 09:49 Ibeanusi Elvis <

> ibeanusielvis at gmail.com> ha scritto:

>

>> Dear Marcus, Dear Community,

>>

>> I do not concur with your analogy and accusations on the proposal or

>> policy written  by Anthony Ikechukwu Ubah and Taiwo Oyewande called

>> “Resource Transfer Policy” as being a hindrance to the smooth operation of

>> business, is entirely false. The major intention of this policy is to

>> support and boost businesses i Africa not to hinder the operation of

>> business.

>>

>> Likewise, the policy is not based on a fake problem of the African

>> region. This is baseless accusation and a wrong self-interpretation of what

>> factual intentions of the Resource Transfer Policy, Anthony and Taiwo

>> should be appreciated for pointing out this issue.

>>

>> On the other hand, "*Basically, the Resource Transfer Policy is intended

>> to take Internet Resources on one region to the other. We all know that

>> Africa is at its developing stage and needs more internet resources to

>> support its developmental process. Accepting this policy means that the

>> little resources left in our region will be taken away, especially when we

>> don’t have the mechanism in place to enforce the auditing of the use of the

>> allocated resources.**”*

>>

>> *The purpose of this policy is to support a “TWO-WAY INTER-RIR POLICY”

>> which implies that AFRINIC can receive and transfer resources. With the

>> exhaustion of the IPv4, the adoption of this policy will do a greater good

>> to the African continent as it supports the circulation of resources into

>> and out of all the RIRs *

>>

>> *Best, *

>> *Elvis*

>>

>> On Sep 26, 2020, at 02:24, Taiwo Oyewande <taiwo.oyewande88 at gmail.com>

>> wrote:

>>

>> Hi all,

>>

>> Discussing a problem statement that will not be implemented in the CPM is

>> not really taking us forward.

>>

>> There is an obvious war against the co chairs for doing a job that the

>> community mandated them to do by the status of their election. The

>> co-chairs discussed each points raised with the various authors and tried

>> to see if all the points were duly addressed before making their decisions.

>>

>> I saw a false and misleading statement about the cochairs trying to get

>> the authors of 2 of the 3 related policies against the authors of the 3rd

>> policy. Is this what members of this working group has turned to?

>> Trying to create a bad name for another member using scenarios that never

>> occurred. I think that is the height of desperation and such defamation of

>> character should not be encouraged on this list

>>

>> Taiwo

>>

>> On 25 Sep 2020, at 14:17, Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>

>> wrote:

>>

>> 

>> Dear all,

>>

>> The Policy “Resource Transfer Policy” (AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT01)

>> proposed by Anthony Ikechukwu Ubah and Taiwo Oyewande is based on a fake

>> problem for our region.

>>

>>

>> (1) “The current policy fails to support a two-way Inter-RIR policy” –

>> And so what? This was an intra-RIR transfer policy, not meant to be

>> Inter-RIR

>>

>> (2) “there by hindering smooth business operation”

>>

>> Can the authors of the policy show how the current situation is

>> “hindering smooth business operation?”

>>

>> Further, they should tell us what they mean by “smooth business

>> operation”.

>>

>> (3) “development and growth in the region”

>>

>> Can the authors of the policy prove that the current status is hindering

>> “development and growth in the region”?

>>

>> It is clear that the authors of the policy have used unsubstantiated

>> claims to buttress the need for this policy.

>>

>> Basically, the Resource Transfer Policy is intended to take Internet

>> Resources on one region to the other. We all know that Africa is at its

>> developing stage and needs more internet resources to support its

>> developmental process. Accepting this policy means that the little

>> resources left in our region will be taken away, especially when we don’t

>> have the mechanism in place to enforce the auditing of the use of the

>> allocated resources.

>>

>> Moreover, any unmanaged inter-RIR transfer policy will weaken the

>> development of the Internet in the region as we have no control over this

>> global market which never played in our favor. It may also affect AFRINIC

>> operations.

>>

>> Recent findings discussed on this list show how transferred resources are

>> being used. The global community is yet to discuss the impact on transfer.

>> I am more concerned for our region.

>>

>> Reconsider your decision and let us discuss the best approach to engage

>> the Region into the global resources transfer world.

>>

>>

>>

>> Marcus

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------

>> *From:* Murungi Daniel <dmurungi at wia.co.tz>

>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 23, 2020 8:59 PM

>> *To:* rpd >> AfriNIC Resource Policy <rpd at afrinic.net>

>> *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Transfer Policy Proposal v.3.docx

>>

>> Hello,

>>

>> Can the authors of the resource transfer policy in the last call explain,

>> which problem is being addressed?

>>

>> The problem statement is awkward to say the least. The issue with the

>> problem statement was raised in Luanda and during the virtual AIS. How can

>> we can adopt a proposal when the problem statement is out of scope of the

>> PDP?

>>

>> ——-

>> 1. Summary of the problem being addressed by this proposal

>> The current policy fails to support a two-way Inter-RIR policy, thereby

>> hindering smooth business operation, development, and growth in the region.

>> This proposal aims to establish an efficient and business-friendly

>> mechanism to allow a number of resources to be transferred from/to other

>> regions. This proposal outlines a model in which AFRINIC can freely

>> transfer number resources to/from other regions, i.e. RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN

>> and LACNIC. This includes both IPv4 addresses and AS numbers.

>> ——-

>>

>>

>> Regards,

>>

>> Murungi Daniel

>>

>>

>>

>> On Sep 23, 2020, at 10:39 PM, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

>> wrote:

>>

>> Hello

>>

>> There is no much I can do other than state my *opposition to this

>> proposal* to advance and reach any consensus mainly because 5.7.4.3 has

>> been inverted from what was originally in the proposal and only changed at

>> last minute due to some comments in the PPM going straight to last call

>> which didn't give opportunity to the community re-evaluate this major

>> change and if it's suitable to the region or not.

>>

>> Co-Chairs cannot advance this proposal to rough consensus the way it is

>> and I urge and ask them again to bring it back to discussion to find out a

>> resolution to these opened issues. Multiple people raised substantial

>> concerns about it already. There is no way it can be considered 'rough

>> consensus'.

>>

>> I also understand there may be a hurry to get a Inter-RIR transfer policy

>> as soon as possible, but we must care about what is most important than

>> that which is get policies to reflect what is really good for the region

>> and not just to a few actors, even if it takes a bit longer. I support

>> Jordi's suggestion to have another PPM in a few months so perhaps this

>> proposal can advance from that point in time. LACNIC remained about 2 years

>> without a Inter-RIR transfer policy after it run out of addresses for new

>> organizations and survived. AfriNic will survive if it has to wait a few

>> more months in order to get things really right.

>>

>> Now going to the merit of the proposal specially the main point I oppose

>> (5.7.4.3):

>> There is no sense at all to keep considering transferred legacy resources

>> as legacy. This doesn't work that way and has a proper reason to be like

>> that which is fix a historical internet problem and reduce legacy resources

>> with time as they get transferred to 'normal' organizations who purchased

>> them in the market for example.

>> In this way organizations receiving these resources are bind to the same

>> rules everybody else making it much fair to everybody and making no

>> distinction between members.

>> Allowing resources to remain considered legacy only contributed to abuses

>> and unfairness allowing those who can pay more do whatever they like which

>> is bad for the rest of the Internet community which are subject to the same

>> rules  that apply equally to them.

>> If transferred legacy resources are not considered legacy anymore more

>> and more they will apply equally for everybody as they become as a normal

>> resource within any RIR. There has been a strong reason for this be like

>> that until now and to continue like that.

>>

>> Regards

>> Fernando

>> On 23/09/2020 09:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:

>>

>> Hi Taiwo, all,

>>

>> I've looked into the doc.

>>

>> Let me say something before going into a more detailed analysis: I *fully support* this proposal, and I will be happy to withdraw it once:

>> 1) The staff confirms that all the points on the staff analysis have been cleared and thus, the policy could be implemented and will be functional in the intended purpose.

>> 2) The board ratifies the policy (which means also it passes the last call).

>>

>> Why? If anything in the process fails, I still believe my proposal is clearer and never mind is my proposal or this one I'm happy to work with the authors to make sure to resolve the issues that may happen as indicated in 1 and 2 above (hopefully there are no issues).

>>

>> I've now a more detailed analysis, please really, needs to be taken seriously with the staff or we may ruin the policy and not allow to be functional.

>>

>> There is something which doesn't make sense: The text in point 5.7. The CPM should be read always as "actual" so "soon will exhaust ..." is not logic, neither needed for the purpose of this policy. In addition, there are typos there ...

>>

>> This is an editorial change that according to the PDP should be possible as part of the last call. I will suggest to keep it simple:

>> 5.7 IPv4 Resources transfer

>> This policy applies to an organization with a justified need for IPv4 resources (recipients) and organizations with IPv4 resources which no longer need (sources).

>>

>> I see that the "disputes" issue has been resolved! Tks! Anyway, I think there is another editorial problem there.

>> Actual text:

>> 5.7.3.1 The source must be the current rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources registered with any RIR, and shall be in compliance with the policies of the receiving RIR, and shall not be involved in any dispute as to the status of those resources.

>>

>> I suggest:

>> 5.7.3.1 The source must be the current rightful holder of the IPv4 address resources registered with any RIR, in compliance with the relevant policies, and shall not be involved in any dispute as to the status of those resources.

>>

>> Keeping the "policies of the receiving RIR" is contradictory ... changing it with "relevant policies" allows both RIRs to ensure that everything is correct.

>>

>> Grammar maybe, I'm not English native speaker:

>> "for 12 months period" or "for a 12 months period"

>>

>> I think 5.7.3.3. doesn't add any value, it could be removed and doesn't change anything: if there is no limite, no need to mention it. If there is not agreement, clearly the transfer will not happen because the parties don't authorize it, and then the RIR(s) don't authorize it!

>>

>> Similarly 5.7.4.2. could be removed as well. We already said that the recipient should comply with policies (5.7.3.1), so what is this adding? Just superfluous text.

>>

>> Note also my imputs in the previous email, regarding the hold period and the legacy status. I think 5.7.4.3, should be "IPv4 legacy resources "Transferred incoming or within AFRINIC IPv4 legacy resources will no longer be regarded as legacy resources".

>>

>> 5.7.5.1 is already indicated by the staff as something problematic with the actual wording. The transferring party (the source) may not have any relation (not a member) with the receiving RIR. With this text we are enforcing *all the RIRs* to offer a standard template and process on our mandate. WE CAN'T DO THAT. Our policies only have a mandate in AFRINIC, not in the other RIRs.

>>

>> If we just remove section 5.7.5, and leave it to the staff as part of the operational procedure, the the problem is resolved because the existing process among the all other 4 RIRs for transfers will be "joined" by AFRINIC. It is just a matter of interconection among systems and processes!

>>

>> I think all this should be carefully studied among the authors and the staff and the chairs should make sure that the verstion coming to last call has corrected all those issues.

>>

>> I hope all this is useful.

>>

>> Regards,

>> Jordi

>> @jordipalet

>>

>>

>>

>> El 23/9/20 9:38, "Taiwo Oyewande" <taiwo.oyewande88 at gmail.com> <taiwo.oyewande88 at gmail.com> escribió:

>>

>>     Hello PDWG,

>>

>>     Attached is the updated version of the Resource Transfer Policy proposal. As recommended, changes have been effected on sub-section  5.7.3.2, and 5.7.4.3 according to the co-chair summary.

>>

>>

>>     _______________________________________________

>>     RPD mailing list

>>     RPD at afrinic.net

>>     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

>>

>>

>>

>> **********************************************

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