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[rpd] AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02 - Resource Transfer Policy
Fernando Frediani
fhfrediani at gmail.com
Thu Sep 24 01:53:10 UTC 2020
We can make in another way: if someone justifies and receives resources
from AfriNic but afterwards realizes something changed and doesn't need
those addresses anymore it must give the addresses back to AfriNic so it
can re-distribute it in the most fair way to any other organization who
goes though the same justification process. Why is it difficult to think
about this fairness with all others in the region ?
Fernando
On 23/09/2020 22:22, lucilla fornaro wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I agree with what concerns the problem of the time limit. Companies
> will refrain from such behavior because it is too risky and indicative
> of possible fraud.
>
> Jordi, Considering your example related to the customers' loss, I
> think that it is adverse for the operator to wait 12 months before
> transferring the addresses. What is the point in holding addresses
> that they will not be able to use and deprive someone else of further
> resources? What if they don’t get new customers? What if they lose
> even more customers? Too many hypothetical questions, that is why I
> believe it is more straightforward and more convenient for everyone to
> facilitate the process.
>
> I agree that recovery processes are expensive and time-consuming, but
> we can say the same for those unused resources.
>
> As well as you, I would like to know the staff’s view on this.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lucilla
>
> Il giorno mer 23 set 2020 alle ore 21:14 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> ha scritto:
>
> Hi Anthony,
>
> I think **somehow** you’re right, clearly I overlooked this.
>
> We don’t need a time limit to transfer resrources because that
> will be a demonstration of the “the need was not justified”.
>
> However, the problem of this approach is that if it happens, the
> staff **will need to start a recovery process** which is long,
> costly and a big trouble.
>
> What happens if the **false** justification for the transfer is: I
> had the need 6 months ago, but then I lost customers and now I
> don’t need anymore the space, so I’m transfering it.
>
> What happens if the same operator, repeat that after another 6
> months? There are ways to one and again **justify the need** and
> it is, instead, very dificult for the staff to act on the RSA for
> recovery and member closure in those cases.
>
> On the other way around, what is the “objection” if we have that
> hold time? I can only see one: If the example above (I lost
> customers) happens, the operator need to wait until month 12
> before transfering the addresses. Is that really so bad? Or it is
> good because he may get new customers again?
>
> I think the trade-off is to have a good balance and ensure that we
> avoid this happening and requiring the staff to invest resources
> in an investigation and recovery.
>
> Could the staff provide a view on this?
>
> Regarding the legacy. Yes, ARIN and RIPE don’t have it (I think
> APNIC has it, LACNIC definitively has it). AFRINIC has it right
> now. We are removing a very good thing.
>
> Why it is so good? Because legacy holders aren’t bound to the RIRs
> RSAs, so that’s extremely bad for the overall community. They
> don’t pay for **services** that all the RIRs are doing for them,
> so all the members are covering that part of the cost. They’re not
> bound to RIR policies, so they can break the rules of the
> community all the time and we have no way to react on that.
>
> I don’t agree on the point of the disputed resources, I’ve the
> feeling that somehow in the process of editing the v2, it was
> removed by mistake and we should have it back. The difference in
> between rightful holder and having a dispute, is depending on who
> is saying that, in case of a dispute. I will love also to have the
> staff opinion on that.
>
> As well, can the impact analysis be made clear? Is that all fine
> for the staff after having checked with authors each point?
>
> Please, let’s make this happen!
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
> El 21/9/20 18:10, "Anthony Ubah" <ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com
> <mailto:ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com>> escribió:
>
> Hello Jordi,
>
> We can sight an instance with APNIC as a case study. APNIC has a
> transfer policy that doesn’t have a time limit for retransferring
> resources and time proves to us that it works.
>
> According to APNIC, the act of buying space and reselling it right
> after the purchase seems to be highly unlikely because of two reasons.
>
> First of all, most companies buy space for their own use, and
> hence a commodity trading type of business doesn’t exist in the IP
> space involved.
>
> Secondly, since the buyer is required to justify the need of a
> 12-month usage, if he/she engages in an activity such as buying
> the space and then reselling it right after, this indicative of
> fraud because it contravenes the “NEED” which is a prerequisite
> for receiving such space. This simply implies that the so-called
> “NEED” which they provided was fake. Hence, companies will refrain
> from engaging in such behaviour.
>
> As for the legacy transfer, I believe both ARIN and RIPE have the
> cases of a transferred legacy space remained as a legacy. APNIC
> may be different, but I think this is just a different sort of
> opinion and should not be read as an objection. Also, what matters
> the most is that if we follow ARIN, we can receive space from
> them. Definitely this is a significant advantage.
>
> As for the disputed resources, since AFRINIC have to know who the
> rightful holder of the spaces are before transferring them. I
> don’t think this would be a concern because AFRINIC is not able to
> initiate a transfer for space that is under dispute. However, this
> is a legal matter and is already out of the scope of the policy.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> *Anthony Ubah*
>
> E-mail: anthony.ubah at goldspine.com
> <mailto:anthony.ubah at gloworld.com>.ng
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 10:00 AM <rpd-request at afrinic.net
> <mailto:rpd-request at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02 - Resource Transfer Policy
> (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)
> 2. Re: Abuse Contact Policy (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 10:34:13 +0200
> From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es
> <mailto:jordi.palet at consulintel.es>>
> To: rpd List <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
> Subject: [rpd] AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02 - Resource Transfer
> Policy
> Message-ID:
> <8873E491-A0A7-4506-A490-13C6B6E67A7D at consulintel.es
> <mailto:8873E491-A0A7-4506-A490-13C6B6E67A7D at consulintel.es>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I will be happy to support this proposal and withdraw my own
> one, but *before* I?ve some questions about this decision that
> need to be addressed first (see below, in-line).
>
>
>
>
>
> 10. Resource Transfer Policy
>
> This proposal aims to introduce Inter RIR transfer. However,
> it has the following opposition
>
> a. Issues with Legacy holder transfer is
> potentially considered none-reciprocal by ARIN
>
> b. Potential abuse of AFRINIC free pool
> without the time limit of receiving an allocation from AFRINIC.
>
> Chairs Decision: The proposal is the least contested of all
> the 3 competing proposals. However because of the community?s
> desire and clear expression for the need for an Inter RIR
> transfer, we, the Co-chairs, believe that in the interest of
> the community we should focus on a proposal rather than
> several similar ones. This desire was clearly expressed at the
> AFRINIC 31 meeting in Angola. Therefore, We suggest that the
> authors of this proposal make the following amendments:
>
> ? 5.7.3.2 Source entities are not eligible to receive
> further IPv4 allocations or assignments from AFRINIC for 12
> months period after the transfer.
>
>
>
> [Jordi] This is perfect, and in fact is what I?ve. Just
> different timing to match phase 2 window x 2, but not a big
> issue. However, we are missing something that was also
> objected by the community and I think is key to avoid abuse.
> Actual text in the CPM ?5.7.3.3 Source entities must not have
> received a transfer, allocation, or assignment of IPv4 number
> resources from AFRINIC for the 12 months prior to the approval
> of transfer request. This restriction excludes mergers and
> acquisitions transfers.?. This is no longer considered by this
> proposal, and in my opinion it is a MUST. Doesn?t make any
> sense that someone is getting resources from AFRINIC and being
> able to transfer them immediately! Can please the chairs also
> address this point.
>
> [Jordi] Can the staff explain the consequences from their
> perspective if we don?t have such text or something similar?
> Is even possible that the board will not ratify the policy
> because that, and we are wasting a previous time?
>
>
>
> ? 5.7.4.3. Transferred legacy resources will still be
> regarded as legacy resources.
>
> [Jordi] This is also a major issue. I?m not sure if the chairs
> have understood what was the point about lack of reciprocity.
> We can?t enforce ARIN to accept that outgoing (to ARIN from
> AFRINIC) resources will no longer be legacy. However the
> actual CPM states ?5.7.4.3 Transferred IPv4 legacy resources
> will no longer be regarded as legacy resources.?. We must keep
> that, because we should avoid legacy resources to keep being
> legacy as much as possible, because they are NOT BIND to the
> CPM. If we accept the chairs proposal, we are going
> *backwards* not forward and we may be creating a
> discrimination with already done transfers within AFRINIC
> (Intra-RIR, according to the current policy). The right text
> here must be ?Transferred incoming or within AFRINIC IPv4
> legacy resources will no longer be regarded as legacy resources?.
>
>
>
> [Jordi] Finally, there were several severe comments from the
> staff that need to be addressed. For example, resources under
> dispute. That?s a big issue! There are a few others. I think
> here we need to see if the staff got everything clear from the
> authors inputs and if the policy can be implemented or there
> will be open questions that will not allow to be a functional
> policy and again, even disallow the board to ratify it.
>
>
>
> Chairs Decision: Provided that the above are amended, the
> decisions is Rough Consensus is achieved
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 11:00:01 +0200
> From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es
> <mailto:jordi.palet at consulintel.es>>
> To: <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
> Subject: Re: [rpd] Abuse Contact Policy
> Message-ID:
> <491C1297-8C2D-4939-B339-EDAA80334B24 at consulintel.es
> <mailto:491C1297-8C2D-4939-B339-EDAA80334B24 at consulintel.es>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Lamiaa,
>
>
>
> 8.3 and 8.4 are making sure that you respond to an abuse case,
> *not* that you *recognize* it as an abuse. It is your choice
> to tell the ?victim ISP?, look for me this is not an abuse, so
> I will not do anything about it.
>
>
>
> AFRINIC can?t verify this automatically, because it doesn?t
> make sense that AFRINIC is ?sending? fake abuse reports to see
> if they get a response.
>
>
>
> AFRINIC can only send an email for the validation of the
> mailbox. It is an existing mailbox? I?m getting a response
> (for example, have they, once I send the validation email,
> clicked the link or went into MyAfrinic to input the
> validation code?).
>
>
>
> 8.4 also states the timing for the validation.
>
>
>
> 8.5 is the validation itself, so I guess, according to your
> response, that you?re ok with this specific point. If we don?t
> have it, AFRINIC can?t do a periodic validation.
>
>
>
> 8.6. is making sure that you don?t try to fake the validation.
> For instance, you could respond only to AFRINIC validations
> and then discard all the other emails. If we don?t have that,
> the policy may become useless. Note also that in fact, if you
> follow the RSA, *anyone* could escalate *any* lack of CPM
> compliance. So this is making sure that the policy text is
> honest and transparent.
>
>
>
> Or do you prefer to be filtered because you don?t respond?
>
>
>
> Clearly this proposal is not asking AFRINIC to be a police. Is
> only making sure that the parties *can talk*. Again: AFRINIC
> will not be involved in ?how you handle the case?, but I least
> you should be able to be contacted and respond.
>
>
>
> See this example:
>
> If AK or Moses customers are sending me spam, or trying to
> intrude my network, and they have abuse contacts, I will be
> able to complain to them. Then we have two cases:
>
> 1. Moses responds to me and say ?you?re right, this is
> against our AUP? (is irrelevant what the law in Moses country
> say, it is the contract with customers what says what is
> allowed or not). Let?s fix it. I will warn the customer, and
> if they don?t stop, we will filter their email port, or even
> cancel the contract (just examples, only Moses can decide what
> they do).
>
> 2. AK instead doesn?t care, or the mailbox is full or
> bouncing emails or respond ?sorry in our network we allow
> that?. Then I can take my own decision, filter only that IP
> address, or the complete AK network. I can even see if this is
> allowed in his country and take legal actions (which usually
> you don?t do because is costly and more of the regulations
> don?t know ?anything? about abuse or even Internet!).
>
> AFRINIC will not take any measure if AK decides that is not an
> abuse. It is our problem not AFRINIC problem. However, if the
> email is bouncing, AFRINIC will revalidate the abuse-c and
> make sure that it works.
>
>
>
> Is like a phone book. You have there the phones and they must
> be correct, or you need to update them every ?n? months. The
> phone book doesn?t tell the purpose of each phone. If you
> don?t want to accept calls related to ?ordering pizzas?, you
> tell the caller ?this number is not for that?, but at least
> you must pick up the phone otherwise, you don?t know if it is
> somebody calling by error or someone that you really want to
> talk. And this is true for *every* whois contact.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Can you let us know how do you handle it in the networks that
> you operate?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El 21/9/20 10:00, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribi?:
>
>
>
> Hi Fernando,
>
>
>
> I think you are very confused. I never said I have a problem
> with people completing their registration. Keep
> registration---having an abuse contact Email in the whois,
> just like tech contact or admin contact--I am perfectly fine
> with it, and I think the current policy achieves 99% it, if
> you want to add this contact as mandatory field I am fine with
> it as well.
>
>
>
> But the problem of this policy in 8.3-8.6, is that it
> requires AFRINIC to monitor the members HOW to manage their
> abuse mailbox down to the subject line, and that is out of
> the scope of AFRINIC, just read my last email with logic in
> mind and you will understand. I suggest this policy should be
> very simple, adding one line to the current policy-- abuse
> contact is mandatory, and it's done, everything else should be
> deleted.
>
>
>
> And again, you are trying to use AFRINIC for something that is
> not in its scope, how someone manages their mailbox is not in
> the scope of AFRINIC, it is like you go to your local church
> to ask them to arrest your neighbour who plays loud music at
> night when you should go to police instead. Same thing for
> someone running an abusive network, as many already stated, it
> is up to a local Jury to decide if it is simply at an annoying
> level or a criminal offense, but either way please do go to
> your local police to report it.
>
>
>
> As for the internet, we never tell you how to behave--you are
> entirely at your rights in the internet to behave abusively,
> but it is also entirely in everyone's rights to block you,
> that's how de-centralizing works, no central governing,
> everyone plays nice because that's the only way for everyone
> else to play with you, and this policy here asks AFRINIC to
> act like a central government even down to manage people's
> mailbox's subject line and that is way beyond what internet
> meant to be.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Lamiaa
>
>
>
> Le dim. 20 sept. 2020 ? 23:42, Fernando Frediani
> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> a ?crit :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 19/09/2020 13:19, Lamiaa Chnayti wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
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> <clip>
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> How is it in the scope of AFRINIC to decide how I manage my
> abuse mailbox? If I want to reply only to a specific subject
> line of my abuse box, it is entirely in my right to do. Even
> if I don't want to reply at the abuse mailbox at all, that is
> my right to do so and if I think no action in my network would
> be considered abuse (although unlikely), but it is still from
> the internet community point of view, entirely in my right to
> do so. You might choose to block me as a network, but that is
> also your right.
>
>
>
> The reason internet is called INTER-NET is because of its
> decentralized nature, you have to play nice for others to play
> with you, but this community never forces anyone to play nice,
> it is not in the scope of AFRINIC to decide how members reply
> to their abuse mailbox, so if 8.3,8.4, 8.5 and 8.6 are deleted
> in its entirety, I might consider supporting it. Also Jordi, I
> feel you always have this central management type of thinking,
> and that is so not internet.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> It is not in the scope of any RIR how anyone manage people's
>
> mailboxes.
>
>
> Nobody exists alone in the Internet. If an organization
>
> hypothetically doesn't care at all and refuses to respond to abuse
>
> emails it probably should re-think its existence in the Internet
>
> business.
>
>
>
> The Internet is what is among many reasons because of the
>
> cooperation among its organizations, and there are certain rules
>
> that are agreed cooperatively and must be observed by everyone
>
> willing remain on it, otherwise it may in many cases cause serious
>
> damage to those willing to operate in serious manner and keep it a
>
> healthy place to most people who depend on it.
>
>
>
>
> This forum is about setting rules on how registration information
>
> about resources are kept and it may be of the wish of the
>
> community to refuse keep registration for those who repetitively
>
> abuse of their individual rights.
>
>
>
> Fernando
>
>
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>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
> Lamiaa
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> Le ven. 18 sept. 2020 ? 09:23,
>
> JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net
> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a ?crit :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Lamiaa,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don?t agree. Internet doesn't depend on
>
> any jurisdiction; abuse is about what I (the victim
>
> operator) consider abuse. The RFC is clear about that,
>
> in short ?Inappropriate public behaviour? (is a
>
> mailbox so to be able to contact in case there is a
>
> possible inappropriate behaviour in the public
>
> Internet). If you want a clearer definition, abuse is
>
> *anything* that I don?t want to accept in my
>
> network because is in any way damaging it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If I don?t want to accept a DoS, or spam,
>
> or phising, DMCA, or whatever, this is abuse *for
>
> me*. I?ve the right to tell you because that
>
> abuse is coming from your network. If you believe that
>
> is not abuse (and here is your jurisdiction in some
>
> cases, in other just doesn?t exist, but it may be also
>
> your ?business? decision ? like operators that don?t
>
> care if their customers do spam or intrusion
>
> attempts), you?ve the right to tell me ?sorry, this is
>
> not abuse for us?, and then I?ve the right to decide
>
> if I should filter your network based on your
>
> response.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Not having an abuse contact, means that
>
> I?m not able to contact you, so we can?t talk, we
>
> can?t investigate or agree if it is an abuse or not,
>
> so you (the offender operator) don?t have the chance
>
> to decide about it! Is bad for you, is bad for me. In
>
> those cases, my best choice is to filter you. This
>
> create problems for your customers and my customers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We can?t depend on jurisdictions, because
>
> then the policy will need to consider inter-relations
>
> among every possible ?pairs? of country worlds, and we
>
> will need to update the policy based on any
>
> jurisdiction change. The policy is not about that, is
>
> about having a valid responsible contact, not about
>
> deciding what is an abuse, which is among the two
>
> parties.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tell me what is different from AFRINIC
>
> than the rest of the world, because none of the RIRs
>
> have defined abuse in their policies. I even don?t
>
> recall that having appeared in the discussions!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If
>
> you want, I?m happy to change the title of the
>
> proposal to ?supposed abuse contact?, that may be
>
> clearing your point?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Again,
>
> this is not about defining what is abuse, this is
>
> among the parties. It is about making sure that
>
> there is a valid responsible contact in case of
>
> anyone needs to report what he considers an abuse.
>
> AFRINIC will not punish anyone that believes that
>
> his customer is not doing an abuse because in his
>
> country is not an abuse.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Jordi
>
>
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El
>
> 18/9/20 9:59, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>>
>
> escribi?:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello
>
> Jordi,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> RFC2142
>
> only defines a tiny portion of the network abuse. In
>
> real world operation, abuse consists of a much
>
> boarder range : DMCA(copy rights) claims,
>
> unsolicited emails , phishing websites , trade mark
>
> disputes etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> All
>
> those are legal issues that vary vastly across
>
> different juridictions in which no one but each of
>
> the juridiction?s judges can decide if it is an
>
> abuse or an illegal activity. Claiming that RFC2142
>
> defines not even 1% of real world abuse is
>
> laughable.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lamiaa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Le jeu.
>
> 17 sept. 2020 ? 15:51, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
>
> RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>
> a ?crit :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> Lamiaa,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I?ve
>
> said this already. This policy doesn?t
>
> enforce abuse, it enforces that the abuse
>
> contact is there, and works.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Today
>
> AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the
>
> abuse handling because only a tiny
>
> fraction of the members has the abuse
>
> contacts in place.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If
>
> the contacts in the RIR database aren?t
>
> actual and accurate, this is a clear
>
> violation of the RSA. So what is
>
> unacceptable is not having the contacts,
>
> not on the other way around.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Abuse
>
> is not defined by the RIRs, everybody
>
> knows it and this is the reason why NONE
>
> of the RIRs have re-defined it, because it
>
> is already stated in RFC2142. Can you
>
> justify why AFRINIC is different and need
>
> a definition?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> How
>
> you define it in the networks that you
>
> operate?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Jordi
>
>
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El 17/9/20
>
> 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>>
>
> escribi?:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I
>
> will have to agree with Lucilla on what
>
> she said and would like to add to it
>
> that :
>
>
>
> Firstly, Abuse
>
> enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.
>
>
>
> Secondly, RIRs
>
> have no ability to define what is
>
> ?abuse?, one abuse or even criminal
>
> activity could be entirely a legal
>
> operation in a different jurisdiction.
>
>
>
> Finally, making
>
> a member forcefully reply to abuse
>
> contact Emails are a waste of resources
>
> and totally pointless, it is entirely up
>
> to the member to define what they think
>
> is acceptable in their network operation
>
> and how they react to it. AFRINIC has no
>
> mandate to force any member to reply to
>
> an ?abuse?, since AFRINIC doesn?t even
>
> have the ability to identify what is
>
> considered an abuse.
>
>
>
> Therefore the
>
> entire policy is out of scope for the
>
> RIR operation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lamiaa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Le jeu. 17
>
> sept. 2020 ? 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
>
> via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>
> a ?crit :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Lucilla,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Today we already have
>
> mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
>
> networks understand what it is an
>
> abuse. If you operate networks you
>
> know that *anything* which
>
> is a non-authorized use of a
>
> network is an abuse.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If you send spam,
>
> attack networks, try to intrude
>
> networks, etc., all those are
>
> abuse.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What the policy ask
>
> is to make sure that in AFRINIC
>
> everybody has an abuse contact
>
> (today we have mnt-IRT, but is not
>
> mandatory, and as a results many
>
> African networks are filtered
>
> because lack of that ? and
>
> consequently they do not respond
>
> to abuse cases -, which exist in
>
> all the other regions of the
>
> world).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Not having an abuse
>
> means more chances of legal
>
> actions, more cost, for both the
>
> victims and the ISPs. Having
>
> that means that you have more
>
> chances to resolve it in
>
> goodfaith.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> One of the *most
>
> important* Afrinic
>
> missions is to have accuracy on
>
> the database, which includes
>
> accuracy on the contacts. We are
>
> not fulfilling that in this
>
> situation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Remember that *all*
>
> the other RIRs have already this
>
> kind of policy. This one is like
>
> the one that has been
>
> implemented in APNIC, and the
>
> accuracy of the contacts is now
>
> 87.5% as reported this month in
>
> the last APNIC meeting. In that
>
> report *none* of the
>
> members indicated any of the
>
> issues that you indicated
>
> (didn't happened as well in the
>
> other regions).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You know who is
>
> interested in not having abuse
>
> contacts? Those that use their
>
> networks for doing abuse
>
> (hijacking, spam, DoS,
>
> intrusions, etc.).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Can you explain if
>
> the network that you operate has
>
> an abuse contact an how if one
>
> of your customes is trying to
>
> penetrate my network or do a
>
> DoS, I will be able to contact
>
> you and if you will do anything
>
> or just ignore it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Jordi
>
>
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El
>
> 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
>
> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>>
>
> escribi?:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear
>
> all,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I
>
> have some concerns about the
>
> ?Abuse Contact Policy?.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> First
>
> of all, it does not offer a
>
> specific and regulated
>
> description of the term
>
> ?abuse? and this opens the
>
> door to potentially bigger
>
> problems: a surplus of
>
> reports, discrimination/legal
>
> issues, and a waste of
>
> resources. Around the world,
>
> we can perceive what abuse is
>
> in very different ways.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Afrinic
>
> is not entitled to force
>
> members to report abuses and
>
> most importantly, this
>
> proposal does not represent
>
> Afrinic?s purpose.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I,
>
> therefore, oppose this policy.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank
>
> you,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lucilla
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> RPD mailing list RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
>
>
> IPv4 is over
>
>
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>
>
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>
>
> The IPv6 Company
>
>
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains
>
> information which may be privileged or
>
> confidential. The information is
>
> intended to be for the exclusive use
>
> of the individual(s) named above and
>
> further non-explicilty authorized
>
> disclosure, copying, distribution or
>
> use of the contents of this
>
> information, even if partially,
>
> including attached files, is strictly
>
> prohibited and will be considered a
>
> criminal offense. If you are not the
>
> intended recipient be aware that any
>
> disclosure, copying, distribution or
>
> use of the contents of this
>
> information, even if partially,
>
> including attached files, is strictly
>
> prohibited, will be considered a
>
> criminal offense, so you must reply to
>
> the original sender to inform about
>
> this communication and delete it.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> RPD mailing list
>
>
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
>
>
>
>
>
> IPv4 is over
>
>
>
>
>
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> The IPv6 Company
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains information
>
> which may be privileged or confidential. The
>
> information is intended to be for the
>
> exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
>
> and further non-explicilty authorized
>
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
>
> the contents of this information, even if
>
> partially, including attached files, is
>
> strictly prohibited and will be considered a
>
> criminal offense. If you are not the intended
>
> recipient be aware that any disclosure,
>
> copying, distribution or use of the contents
>
> of this information, even if partially,
>
> including attached files, is strictly
>
> prohibited, will be considered a criminal
>
> offense, so you must reply to the original
>
> sender to inform about this communication and
>
> delete it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
> RPD mailing list
>
>
>
>
>
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
>
>
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Le jeu.
>
> 17 sept. 2020 ? 15:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
>
> RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>
> a ?crit :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> Lamiaa,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I?ve
>
> said this already. This policy doesn?t
>
> enforce abuse, it enforces that the abuse
>
> contact is there, and works.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Today
>
> AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse
>
> handling because only a tiny fraction of the
>
> members has the abuse contacts in place.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If the
>
> contacts in the RIR database aren?t actual
>
> and accurate, this is a clear violation of
>
> the RSA. So what is unacceptable is not
>
> having the contacts, not on the other way
>
> around.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Abuse is
>
> not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it
>
> and this is the reason why NONE of the RIRs
>
> have re-defined it, because it is already
>
> stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why
>
> AFRINIC is different and need a definition?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> How you
>
> define it in the networks that you operate?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Jordi
>
>
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El 17/9/20
>
> 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>>
>
> escribi?:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I
>
> will have to agree with Lucilla on what
>
> she said and would like to add to it that
>
> :
>
>
>
> Firstly, Abuse
>
> enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.
>
>
>
> Secondly, RIRs
>
> have no ability to define what is ?abuse?,
>
> one abuse or even criminal activity could
>
> be entirely a legal operation in a
>
> different jurisdiction.
>
>
>
> Finally, making
>
> a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
>
> Emails are a waste of resources and
>
> totally pointless, it is entirely up to
>
> the member to define what they think is
>
> acceptable in their network operation and
>
> how they react to it. AFRINIC has no
>
> mandate to force any member to reply to an
>
> ?abuse?, since AFRINIC doesn?t even have
>
> the ability to identify what is considered
>
> an abuse.
>
>
>
> Therefore the
>
> entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
>
> operation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lamiaa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Le jeu. 17
>
> sept. 2020 ? 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
>
> via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>
> a ?crit :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> Lucilla,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Today
>
> we already have mnt-IRT, and
>
> everybody who operate networks
>
> understand what it is an abuse. If
>
> you operate networks you know that *anything*
>
> which is a non-authorized use of a
>
> network is an abuse.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If
>
> you send spam, attack networks, try
>
> to intrude networks, etc., all those
>
> are abuse.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What
>
> the policy ask is to make sure that
>
> in AFRINIC everybody has an abuse
>
> contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
>
> is not mandatory, and as a results
>
> many African networks are filtered
>
> because lack of that ? and
>
> consequently they do not respond to
>
> abuse cases -, which exist in all
>
> the other regions of the world).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Not having an abuse
>
> means more chances of legal
>
> actions, more cost, for both the
>
> victims and the ISPs. Having that
>
> means that you have more chances
>
> to resolve it in goodfaith.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> One of the *most
>
> important* Afrinic missions
>
> is to have accuracy on the
>
> database, which includes accuracy
>
> on the contacts. We are not
>
> fulfilling that in this situation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Remember that *all*
>
> the other RIRs have already this
>
> kind of policy. This one is like
>
> the one that has been implemented
>
> in APNIC, and the accuracy of the
>
> contacts is now 87.5% as reported
>
> this month in the last APNIC
>
> meeting. In that report *none*
>
> of the members indicated any of
>
> the issues that you indicated
>
> (didn't happened as well in the
>
> other regions).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You know who is
>
> interested in not having abuse
>
> contacts? Those that use their
>
> networks for doing abuse
>
> (hijacking, spam, DoS, intrusions,
>
> etc.).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Can you explain if
>
> the network that you operate has
>
> an abuse contact an how if one of
>
> your customes is trying to
>
> penetrate my network or do a DoS,
>
> I will be able to contact you and
>
> if you will do anything or just
>
> ignore it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Jordi
>
>
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El
>
> 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
>
> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>>
>
> escribi?:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear
>
> all,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I
>
> have some concerns about the
>
> ?Abuse Contact Policy?.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> First
>
> of all, it does not offer a
>
> specific and regulated
>
> description of the term ?abuse?
>
> and this opens the door to
>
> potentially bigger problems: a
>
> surplus of reports,
>
> discrimination/legal issues, and
>
> a waste of resources. Around the
>
> world, we can perceive what
>
> abuse is in very different ways.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Afrinic
>
> is not entitled to force members
>
> to report abuses and most
>
> importantly, this proposal does
>
> not represent Afrinic?s purpose.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I,
>
> therefore, oppose this policy.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank
>
> you,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lucilla
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> RPD mailing list RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
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> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
>
>
> IPv4 is over
>
>
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>
>
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>
>
> The IPv6 Company
>
>
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains
>
> information which may be privileged or
>
> confidential. The information is
>
> intended to be for the exclusive use of
>
> the individual(s) named above and
>
> further non-explicilty authorized
>
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use
>
> of the contents of this information,
>
> even if partially, including attached
>
> files, is strictly prohibited and will
>
> be considered a criminal offense. If you
>
> are not the intended recipient be aware
>
> that any disclosure, copying,
>
> distribution or use of the contents of
>
> this information, even if partially,
>
> including attached files, is strictly
>
> prohibited, will be considered a
>
> criminal offense, so you must reply to
>
> the original sender to inform about this
>
> communication and delete it.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> RPD mailing list
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>
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
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> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> IPv4 is over
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The IPv6 Company
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains information
>
> which may be privileged or confidential. The
>
> information is intended to be for the exclusive
>
> use of the individual(s) named above and further
>
> non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
>
> distribution or use of the contents of this
>
> information, even if partially, including
>
> attached files, is strictly prohibited and will
>
> be considered a criminal offense. If you are not
>
> the intended recipient be aware that any
>
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the
>
> contents of this information, even if partially,
>
> including attached files, is strictly
>
> prohibited, will be considered a criminal
>
> offense, so you must reply to the original
>
> sender to inform about this communication and
>
> delete it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
> RPD mailing list
>
>
>
>
>
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
>
>
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lamiaa
>
> CHNAYTI
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
>
>
> IPv4 is over
>
>
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>
>
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>
>
> The IPv6 Company
>
>
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be
>
> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to
>
> be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
>
> and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
>
> distribution or use of the contents of this information,
>
> even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
>
> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you
>
> are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure,
>
> copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
>
> information, even if partially, including attached files, is
>
> strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense,
>
> so you must reply to the original sender to inform about
>
> this communication and delete it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> RPD mailing list
>
>
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> RPD mailing list
>
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> RPD mailing list
>
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
> --
>
> Lamiaa CHNAYTI
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ RPD mailing
> list RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be
> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be
> for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and
> further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
> if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited
> and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
> if partially, including attached files, is strictly
> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must
> reply to the original sender to inform about this
> communication and delete it.
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of RPD Digest, Vol 168, Issue 143
> *************************************
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be
> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
> the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
> non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
> of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
> attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
> criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
> of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
> is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
> you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
> communication and delete it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
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> _______________________________________________
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