[rpd] New Proposal Received | Simple PDP Update for the new “Normal” (Draft-1)

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ]

Hi Ekaterina,

 

I hope previous chairs, staff and actual chairs can confirm that to you.

 

*The actual practice* is what I said, the chairs don’t strictly follow the PDP and also consider all what happens in the mailing list.

 

My proposal is making sure that the PDP is aligned with the actual practice. Otherwise, if we don’t support that, we should cancel all the previous consensus decisions!

 

Regarding “making this explicit is dangerous as it could open doors to potential manipulation”, this is wrong, because this will be only valid IF we count “votes”, but we use “consensus”. The chairs will only take an objection never mind *who* objected, and the value of the objection is not “how many” times you object on a specific issue, or how many people support that, but only in the basis of “is this objection true?” and “has been resolved by the authors or other folks from the community?”.

 

Regarding point 3.4, is nothing wrong to have competitive proposals, you need to follow the timeline. This proposal was made in 2018. I withdraw it, because other authors proposed something else. But that failed, so I proposed making the analysis impact mandatory. With the Covid-19, I decided to resubmit it. As you can see in the agenda, that proposal about the analysis impact has not been updated neither being presented, so if we have the analysis impact as mandatory as part of this proposal, and it reaches consensus, then the other one will be withdrawn by authors.

 

About the consensus definition, I think clearly is in the other way around (as we did in other RIRs), making a short summary of what is consensus and point to the complete RFC, helps people to understand it (even without needed to read the full RFC).

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 16/9/20 11:46, "Ekaterina Kalugina" <kay.k.prof at gmail.com> escribió:

 

Dear Jordi, 

First of all, you wrote and I quote:

“As said, this is the current practice! The chairs can confirm that. We aren’t changing this, just making sure that it is explicit in the PDP.”

I feel like this statement is  greatly misleading because the original policy states that “the Chair(s) determine(s) whether rough consensus has been achieved during the Public Policy Meeting.” While in your proposed policy it is stated that “the Chairs have a maximum of 2 weeks to determine whether rough consensus has been achieved (considering both list and meeting).” You  are including a mailing list as a source for determination of whether the “rough consensus” is achieved. 

Just like Cathie and Beatrix pointed out in the previous emails, making this explicit is dangerous as it could open doors to potential manipulation. Could you please address this point instead of dismissing it?

Secondly, the clause 3.4.1 tries to sneak in a mandatory impact analysis clause. I find it greatly problematic, considering that you already proposed a separate policy that attempts to do precisely that. This comes across very contrived. I think this point should be properly discussed in a separate policy instead of piggybacking on this one.


In addition, I think we should not have a definition of the rough consensus in the CPM. The proposed definition is incomplete, and therefore could leave room for misinterpretation. I think the section 3.1.1 should be scratched completely, so that we can fall back on the initial definition proposed by the IETF.

For the above reasons,  I am strongly against this policy.

Best wishes,

Ekaterina Kay Kalugina

 

On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 10:41 AM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:

Hi Elvis,

 

You’re missing the concept of consensus. It is important to read the relevant RFC (RFC7282). This is what we follow in RIRs.

 

This is not a voting and this proposal is NOT about elections!

 

There is no such thing as “minor or major”. There is only “objection”. An objection is something that is demonstrated and not refuted by authors.

 

Editorial details are a different thing.

 

If in the last call there is an objection AND is not refuted by the authors (or it was refuted already during the discussion), the proposal must keep the consensus status. If there is a “new” objection that was not discovered before, then the chairs should declare no consensus and bring it back to discussion. Then the authors need to make a new version to address that objection.

 

Now if the objection is resolved in that version and the new discussion in the list agree with that, why we need to wait for a new meeting?

 

Or even more. If the objection was just a clarification on the text, to avoid a miss-interpretation, and a new version is done for that, why we need to wait for a new meeting presentation if we can agree on that in the list?

 

Everybody is able to participate in the list, this provides *more* opportunities to everybody. The meetings are only for the people than can pay for the traveling expenses, or if done virtually, have good internet connection to participate. And even in those cases, there is no “unlimited” time in the meetings (virtual or in-person) for everybody to express their objections, while emails have no limit!

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 16/9/20 10:28, "Ibeanusi Elvis" <ibeanusielvis at gmail.com> escribió:

 

Dear community, 

 

In regards to this proposal, I do not concur with the objectives of this proposal. As already pointed out the issue of the process at which the consensus is attained creating unfairness within the community and the chances of email manipulations.Everyone should be given the opportunity to vote in an electoral structure of consensus attainment.  Nevertheless, a major problem with this proposal is the last call. When a major objection is found during the last call procedure, it is meant to return to the discussion phase due to its inability to reach a consensus and inadvertently, the newer version of this proposal should make significant and meaningful changes in comparison with the old version that did not reach a consensus. No proposal should be returned with only few wording or grammatical, and spelling corrections made. 

 

Best, Elvis 

 

On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 4:33 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:

Hi Cathie,

The actual practice in AFRINIC, as the chairs can confirm or you can check with videos from the previous meetings, they *look* at the mailing list to determine consensus. What we do with this proposal is to make sure that the PDP make it explicit.

In all the other RIRs the mailing list is also looked by the chairs to determine consensus.

So if you oppose to the proposal because that, then we should cancel all the consensus determination done during all the last years?

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet



El 16/9/20 9:19, "Cathie Jay" <cathie.kay89 at gmail.com> escribió:

    Dear Jordi, dear community,

    I oppose this policy because of the way in which consensus is reached.
    The current policy stipulates that consensus should be reached through
    the balancing of the mailing list and forum, and not during the PPM.
    Such policy could pave the way for the intrusion of fake emails within
    the discussion, which could endanger the process of reaching a fair
    consensus, and jeopardize the process of policy-making. In addition,
    it would significantly undermine the work of the co-chairs who will
    facilitate the discussion.

    All best wishes,

    Cathie

    On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:26 AM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
    <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:
    >
    > Hi Chloe,
    >
    >
    >
    > Exactly! I just responded to that to Gaby.
    >
    >
    >
    > Tks!
    >
    >
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Jordi
    >
    > @jordipalet
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > El 9/9/20 13:00, "Chloe Kung" <chloe.kung.public at gmail.com> escribió:
    >
    >
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    >
    >
    > I actually think section 3.4.3 is adequate as the discussion period of each policy proposal is a good 8 weeks. If there is no major objection based on technical justification submitted during the 8 weeks, the chance of having one during the last call period is very small. Even so, the community still have more time than needed to address and discuss the matter. Also this section states and I quote "Within 1 week after the end of the last call, the Working Group Chairs shall confirm whether consensus is maintained.” So if there is such case, meaning the consensus cannot be maintained, it will fall back into the discussion period anyway.
    >
    >
    >
    > Best,
    >
    > Chloe
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
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