[rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG) Guidelines and Procedures

[Daniel Yakmut]

Hi Alain,
I did not call any person selfish on the matter of the elections of
co-chair. I am expressing an opinion that we maintain the status quo with
elections.

The proposal for the co-chair is not talking of ranked voting, but
consensus which I consider a very difficult choice.

So my opinion on this matter is still keeping the old order.

Simply
Daniel

On Sep 2, 2020 7:36 PM, "ALAIN AINA via RPD" <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:


> Hi Daniel,

>

> I could not refrain from reacting to your statement below.

>

> I am very surprised by how you painted AFRINIC compared to RIPE and it

> seriously worried me. I urge you to please provide the evidences of your

> claims.

>

> Since when did the selfishness start? Who are the actors? What are people

> being selfish about?

>

> The PDP is open to anyone to participate and is designed to accommodate

> all, irrespective of their origin, affiliation, interests, behaviours

> etc... by separating roles, imposing transparency, openness.. to prevent

> and mitigate abuses.

>

> Are we missing something?

>

> So far, you have not proposed anything to address your concerns other that

> indirectly opposing an improvement for an open and transparent process of

> appointing cochairs based on merits and consensus ( election by consensus

> or ranked-choice vote) by the WG.

>

> Regards,

>

> —Alain

>

>

> > On 1 Sep 2020, at 05:57, Daniel Yakmut via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:

> >

> > I strongly agree with the salient issues raised here by Owen. I will add

> that RIPE is able to achieve cohesion because significantly there is

> selflessness in the community.

> >

> > In AfriNIC there is a significant distrust and selfishness within the

> community. Hence, it is important we stick to an election procedure that is

> partially workable and acceptable. Again, an attempt to radically alter the

> procedure in such a fractious community can be disastrous.

> >

> > Simply

> > Daniel and

> >

> > On Aug 31, 2020 5:53 PM, "Owen DeLong" <owen at delong.com> wrote:

> > I am the one who said it would not work in Africa and that the

> discussions in Africa are both more fractious and more drama-prone than in

> RIPE. While this may be an uncomfortable truth, I believe that it is a

> measurable and documented fact.

> >

> > Note that ranked voting is _NOT_ election by consensus at least not as

> practiced in RIPE and touted by Marcus. Ranked voting is a system of

> election by vote. It is an alternative to first past the post and I support

> the idea of Ranked voting.

> >

> > One could argue that the end result of ranked voting is likely to be

> consistent with the end result of election by consensus _IF_ a consensus

> can be reliably achieved within the body of voters in question.

> >

> > However, ranked choice voting is a kind of mathematically forced

> consensus and quite different from consensus voting as practiced in RIPE

> working groups. If the authors wish to modify their proposal to suggest a

> ranked-choice voting ballot, then I would not have a problem with that

> aspect of the proposal. That’s not what the current language calls for.

> >

> > As I pointed out earlier, in RIPE, as long as the consensus has no

> controversy, it remains easy, but the RIPE solution in case consensus

> cannot be achieved in the working group is for the RIPE chair to simply

> decide and there is no appeal or check and balance on his decision.

> >

> > To be honest, I’m not wild about that process in the RIPE region, but I

> would find it significantly more abberent in AFRINIC for the following

> reasons:

> >

> >       1.      AFRINIC co-chair elections have a history of being

> significantly

> >               more controversial than RIPE. As such, the fallback

> process which

> >               is almost never used in RIPE would likely be far more

> common in

> >               AFRINIC. (I suspect that if the fallback process in RIPE

> were to

> >               see significant usage, its shortcomings would rapidly lead

> to a

> >               more community-oriented approach to co-chair elections).

> >

> >       2.      The RIPE chair generally enjoys a more widespread and

> higher level

> >               of community trust than is generally granted to the

> various AFRINIC

> >               elected leadership by the AFRINIC community.

> >

> > Like it or not, these differences between the communities in the various

> regions do exist and they do impact the ability to successfully use a

> particular mechanism for conducting elections. IMHO, the paradigm used in

> the RIPE region is far from ideal even for RIPE, but it works because the

> RIPE community is surprisingly cohesive and the amount of controversy tends

> to be significantly less than in AFRINIC.

> >

> > Owen

> >

> >

> >> On Aug 30, 2020, at 7:33 AM, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

> wrote:

> >>

> >> I did not say such thing about Africa, please don't make up stuff.

> >>

> >> I said very clearly elections by consensus are not good anywhere. Why

> make up stuff to support your argument ?

> >>

> >> It is exactly the opposite. "Election" by consensus leaves a great

> margin for subjectivity and for fraud while election by vote eliminates any

> subjectivity in the process if the process is auditable.

> >> This is how it's done in many other places and work as expected,

> without margin for disputes.

> >> Why have a type of "election" that can only serve for the propose of

> margin for fraud and more disputes than the current ones ?

> >>

> >> In my view the only fear of election by vote is from those who may not

> have them.

> >>

> >> Fernando

> >>

> >> On 30/08/2020 10:02, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:

> >>> La seule personne qui se répète c'est belle et bien toi Fernando. Tu

> semble dire qu'en Afrique on est pas capable de gérer une élection par

> consensus approximatif alors que d'autres régions le font et que c'est

> utopique, c'est un rêve, etc., pour ton information il existe bel et bien

> une forme d'élection qui s'apparente à une élection par consensus

> approximatif merci de suivre le lien suivant :

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting. Tu es le seul à vouloir

> exiger d'aller vers une élection direct, quand on sait tout ce que ça

> comporte moyen d'abus.

> >>>

> >>> Cordialement

> >>>

> >>> Arnaud

> >>>

> >>> Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 17:28, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

> a écrit :

> >>> You must be joking with it or trying to make tricks and I am having a

> serious discussion.

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> I already answered your question very clearly in the previous message

> very clearly. If you wish to discuss it in a serious way please go straight

> to the point.

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> Fernando

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> On 29/08/2020 14:21, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:

> >>>> Hi Fernando,

> >>>>

> >>>> Let me not get involve at this stage in the discussions about which

> model of election is good or bad for the PDPWG.

> >>>>

> >>>> You have not answered my question. I am posting it again.

> >>>>

> >>>> I would like to find out whether you agree that the election by

> consent is used by working groups in RIPE region?

> >>>>

> >>>> Please do justice to it.

> >>>>

> >>>> Thanks

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> Marcus

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> From: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

> >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 2:29 PM

> >>>> To: rpd at afrinic.net <rpd at afrinic.net>

> >>>> Subject: Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG) Guidelines

> and Procedures

> >>>>

> >>>> Seems the authors are actually repeating the same arguments and

> points.

> >>>> I am instead putting the many reasons election by consensus is not

> feasible, specially in this scenario we are going through currently.

> >>>> What doubt you have about this position regardless the RIR or region

> ? Perhaps you should read the messages again.

> >>>>

> >>>> Fernando

> >>>>

> >>>> On 29/08/2020 10:31, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:

> >>>>> Hi Fernando,

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Thank you for your reaction but it appears you are not discussing

> but repeating yourself with no value add.

> >>>>>

> >>>>> I would like to find out whether you agree that the election by

> consent is used by working groups in RIPE region?

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Thanks

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Marcus

> >>>>>

> >>>>> From: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

> >>>>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2020 7:26 PM

> >>>>> To: rpd at afrinic.net <rpd at afrinic.net>

> >>>>> Subject: Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG)

> Guidelines and Procedures

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Hello

> >>>>>

> >>>>> If we are having all this trouble to define the next elections

> probably

> >>>>> because there are multiple people interested in the next elections,

> how

> >>>>> can we dream about any consensus ?

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Consensus is for proposals, for a collaborative improving process

> that

> >>>>> may take months or even more than an year, not for electing people.

> >>>>> What is the fear to have a proper vote process ? 1 person 1 vote and

> the

> >>>>> candidate with most votes wins and servers the term. What can go

> wrong ?

> >>>>> When one is elected with most votes and there are no signals of

> fraud

> >>>>> there is no room for disputes and discussions.

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Qualified people are people who effectively participate in the

> >>>>> construction of the process, who are truly part of it and have

> >>>>> commitment to it and not someone who is just passing in front of the

> >>>>> door once in a lifetime.

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Afrinic PDP doesn't even have yet the possibility the Board to

> appoint

> >>>>> interim Co-Chairs when necessary.

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Fernando

> >>>>>

> >>>>> On 28/08/2020 15:16, ALAIN AINA via RPD wrote:

> >>>>> > Hello,

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > Below are our  responses to  last comments received on list on

> this proposal.

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > ###### Comment 1

> >>>>> > Elections by consent is not for real world.

> >>>>> > #######

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > It does work for working groups chairs selection in RIPE region

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > ##### Comment 2

> >>>>> > It's just something too utopic.

> >>>>> > #######

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > As  utopic as  how “rough consensus” appear until you experiment

> it and cherish

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > ###### Comment3

> >>>>> > Election by vote where qualified people (with minimal

> requirements) vote and the candidate with the highest votes win, works in

> most places in the world with less margin  for further disputes

> >>>>> > ######

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > there are many models of elections with different ways of

> qualifying voters, determining the winners, etc....

> >>>>> > What you described is just one the them. Not one fits all.

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > Each  region adopts the best model for its PDP and how chairs/lead

> for the PDP activities are selected.

> >>>>> > https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/

> sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > One can see for example that in the case of LACNIC where, there is

> an electronic votes by those subscribed to the policy mailing list, the

> elections results “must” be ratified by consensus among those present  at

> the PPM as judged by the acting chairs. If results can’t be rectified,

> board appoint an interim chair.

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > The AFRINIC PDPWG adopted in the past  the model of  votes by

> those physical present at the PPM, until it showed its limit recently.

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > Can you please elaborate on how the “qualified people” should be

> selected in the context the PDPWG for the online voting and how to prevent

> abuse and further disputes?

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > HTH

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > —Alain

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> >

> >>>>> > _______________________________________________

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> >>>>> > RPD at afrinic.net

> >>>>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

> >>>>>

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