Search RPD Archives
Limit search to: Subject & Body Subject Author
Sort by:

[rpd] Policy Development Process and Elections

Sami Salih sami.salih at outlook.com
Mon Aug 17 22:10:03 UTC 2020


Ok Benjamin,
I can't break my own rule,

My name is Sami Salih, from Sudan, Khartoum working for Sudan University of Science and Technology,
http://staff.sustech.edu/simsim4_2005/en

I attend most of the AFRINIC meeting since 2009, and server as PDWG Co-chair for the period Dec 2015 – Jun 2019
https://www.afrinic.net/policy/development-working-group

among participating in other committees.

your turn "nicely" please.

Sami Salih


________________________________
From: Benjamin Investor <investor0189 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 11:33 PM
To: Sami Salih <sami.salih at outlook.com>
Cc: rpd List <rpd at afrinic.net>; JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
Subject: Re: [rpd] Policy Development Process and Elections


Hi

There are a few issues rasied I need to respnd to

1. “I also see it is rude if someone ask you to introduce yourself and you wont. So, I urge anyone who believe he is not well known to the group to introduce himself before make lengthy intervention”.

Sami, What is rude about that? It is my choice to either respond or not and when I respond. I believe it's your above statement that is rude. I would introduce myself as I have nothing to hide but I can't be intimidated to do that cos no rule says I must SO Ask nicely and I would do that. Then did you introduce yourself?

2. “Neither of the above matter too me because in the end, Afrinic must ensure we dont have sock puppets voting in an online election considering that spike in subscription in July of over 177 new rpd list members”

Noah, What matters to you then? I rather leave this.

3. “If you are to be specific, what was your suggestion again?”



You can read my initial email on this thread you find the details there but below is the essential part of the suggestion



1. We have a problem at hand but we don't have a solution that is fair and transparent at the moment.

2. We need to have a process in place that would solve our problems not complicate them

3. The problem cannot be solved before we have an election fo fill one of the vacancies

4. We have those that have signified interest to become the chair,

5. One of them would become the chair even if we have an election

6. As things stand now, the community cannot agree on who are the members that should vote for the chair. Therefore if we have 1 candidate then no need for an election but if we have more than 1 candidate. Then ONLY THE CANDIDATES who have signified their intention to be chair should vote among themself and whoever has the highest number of the vote among the candidates is elected by acclamation by the community. They can have two types of election

A) let each of them rank their choices among themself if no one has the highest number of the first-choice vote then we add the second choice vote then the third choice if needed. That way even if they all vote for themself as 1st choice candidate there would still be a winner at the end of the day depending on ranking done by all the candidate. Therefore we still have the most prefered among them being selected.

B) Have an elimination based election the candidate with the lowest number is eliminated, and another round is conducted by all of them until there is a clear winner alternatively if we have two candidates have a tie then we toss a coin to chose one

my humble suggestion is that the community should take my suggestion as formal policy and the chairs ask for a consensus around it and judge the consensus as we previously do.

4. “Mmmmm ok... so are you writing on the list anonymously in which case Benjamin Investors is not your true identity?”

Am not a computer, I am human.

5. “I would like to respond to your long email (reminds me of AA) but I want to make sure its a real person. Please could you introduce yourself”



I am Benjamin, A software developer with over 7 years of experience in about 5 west and central African countries. What else would you like to know?



5. “These roles are voluntary for goodness sake”

Yes I agree with you there are then why do you bother?

7. “If that's the case, looking at how many joined in July then it's a opened door to fraud”

Fernando,

Yes but I can also say with 53 joinings last June it is also an opened door to fraud. The proposed solution of 6 months the cutoff date is also open to fraud.



Ronald,

In as much as I accept your apologies. I am short of words as to how to describe your email. It is very disrespectful to say the least. I am never linked to any of your " rampant skulduggery" I have never worked for AfriNIC and I don't own a single IP, I have never been dishonest or found wanting.

Your email seems to me like a confirmation to me that there seems to be some things going on behind

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 1:20 PM Sami Salih <sami.salih at outlook.com<mailto:sami.salih at outlook.com>> wrote:
So we ended up with a situation when "sleeping Cells" walkup and mobilize trying to manipulate the system.

I also understand point (g) as those recent subscribers will allow to upsetting our voting equilibrium, I hope I misunderstand it but we need confirmation from AFRINIC.
I only believe that the Holy Book is Perfect, any other systems, laws, and regulations made by human beings are full of loophole, so we are here participating in this list to batch any of them as cached.
"spirit of law vs letter of law" we are not robots.

On related remarks, for a long time we didn't see comments like (I support "--Name--"), we need to teach those new commers that we are not support (and / or) oppose people, it's all about ideas , so you need to justify your position.
I also see it is rude if someone ask you to introduce yourself and you wont. So, I urge anyone who believe he is not well known to the group to introduce himself before make lengthy intervention.

Salam.


Sami Salih

________________________________
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net<mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 11:50 AM
To: rpd List <rpd at afrinic.net<mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [rpd] Policy Development Process and Elections


Don’t think this is different! If you company has rules to avoid speaking in their behalf, and you do so, you are fired, and it is perfectly legal.



But you can clearly indicate that it is your personal view, not your employer.



Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet







El 16/8/20 10:46, "Benjamin Investor" <investor0189 at gmail.com<mailto:investor0189 at gmail.com>> escribió:



Dear Jordie,

Thanks for your suggestion.

My old employer is a resource member and we share different views on some issues. At that time I could only have been able to share my views different from his, if I have another job to feed my family. Africa is not like Europe. It takes 5 seconds to sack an employee in the private sector and NOTING would happen execpt that your wife would leave you for another man and your children would call you a useless father and a sparm donor.

Let me ask again is there anyone against my suggestion?



On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 9:01 AM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net<mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:

Hi Kangamutinma,



It was just an example. Clearly is not the same, in fact there are small differences even between countries with similar structures.



In the case of the PDP and the bylaws, the last resort will be ICANN and it is clear in the ICP-2. They bylaws are contradicting the ICP-2 and this is very very very bad. We (the board, the membership, even the community in this case), should correct that.



I know the community has nothing to do with the bylaws, but the actual bylaws are in violation with ICP-2 regarding to who is able to participate in the PDP and attributions to the board which are in fact from the community, that his is a community matter.





Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet







El 16/8/20 4:00, "Kangamutima zabika Christophe" <funga.roho at yandex.com<mailto:funga.roho at yandex.com>> escribió:



Je soutiens les propos de Dewole.



Le problème est que derrière des candidatures à une élection, il y a aussi des stratégies électorales. Il est clair que cette adhésion massive et instantanée relève d'intention à peine voilée de bourrer les urnes.



Quant à la préoccupation de Jordi, je ne pense pas que Transposer la structure d'un pays à la communauté afrinic serait tout à fait exact. Je suis d'accord du fait que beaucoup des dispositions des statuts d'afrinic sont lacunaires et des fois contradictoires avec le PDP mais dans la hiérarchie des normes la communauté devrait déterminer selon les thématiques abordées quelle institution pourrait primer sur l'autre, quel texte prévaudrait sur l'autre.



En plus, chaque fois qu'il y aura conflit d'interprétation des textes (statuts, PDP), quel est l'organe ou l'entité habilité à trancher sur ce différend (au regard des cours constitutionnel dans le cas d'un Etat).



KANGAMUTIMA ZABIKA



15.08.2020, 14:04, "Dewole Ajao via RPD" <rpd at afrinic.net<mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>:

Looks like you misinterpreted paragraph "g", Jordi.

(g) .... AFRINIC undertakes to preserve this right so that no one who has recently subscribed to the rpd mail list will be debarred and/or ‘disenfranchised’ from participating in the Policy Development Process.

I interpreted it to mean: EVERYONE who has recently subscribed to the rpd will be allowed to participate in the elections.

Regards,

Dewole.

On 8/15/2020 1:24 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:

Hi Noah,



The ICP-2 is very clear on this and we all, should know it very well. It is a very well understood concept in all the RIRs. In fact, the message from Eddy recognized that as well.



The PDP is the *global community*, while the board is only a representation of a small subset of the community: the members of only AFRINIC region.



I guess the bylaws were created before the constitution of AFRINIC, or in the very early stage. I don’t know if there is a document that shows all the history of this document and all the modifications (if any) that have been done since them.



The board is *only* able to setup rules for the membership.



The PDP has a “higher” scope: as it sets rules for all.



When you say “The volunteers at the board are given the mandate by the community. The community includes number resources members who form part of the community.”, is wrong in the first sentence “the volunteers at the board are given the mandate by the membership” and the membership is only responsible for membership issues. That’s why is totally wrong to have in the bylaws (which are for membership), text impossing rules to the community (which should be at the PDP).



Following with your next paragraph, the bylaws are wrong. There is NO WAY, the bylaws can enforce what the community (PDP) want to do. The bylaws can only enforce the membership.



And yes, the board can be wrong, and it is perfectly fine, and I’m convinced they always act in good faith and try to do what they believe is best for membership, but this is not neccesarily correct or the best for the community. Exactly the same like a partliament in a country, which represents the citizens, can be wrong, and that’s why, courts, could decide that something that the parliament has decided, need to be amended.





Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet







El 15/8/20 14:04, "Noah" <noah at neo.co.tz<mailto:noah at neo.co.tz>> escribió:



Hi Jordi



The volunteers at the board are given the mandate by the community. The community includes number resources members who form part of the community.



And when you say the volunteers at the board are wrong, and the bylaws are wrong, do you mean the community is wrong?



Noah



On Sat, 15 Aug 2020, 08:06 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD, <rpd at afrinic.net<mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:

Hi Eddy, all,



While I fully agree that it is perfectly appropriate for the Board to decide on the way co-chairs elections are done and even more in this exceptional situation, I think there are some broken statements in this email.



AFRINIC bylaws, in my opinion, are in trouble and against ICANN ICP-2, because are contradicting the consensus and bottom-up approach of the PDP and consequently the co-chairs elections. I will urge to update them.



As a matter of fact, the articles in section 11 related to the PDP don’t exist in any other RIR (I’ve read all them again a few minutes ago, just in case I was missing anything), neiher anything similar. Unfortunatelly I only realized this a couple of days ago, when I was preparing a policy proposal that is not yet published.



Note, and this is not your fault, but from previous boards, that the board has decided on changes and restrictions to the PDP and contravenued the bylaws, because the board never brought those “policies” or “procedures” to the PDP to be endorsed (by consensus) by the community. Wait for my last proposal to be published for more details.



Let me clarify, below in-line each of the points.



Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet







El 14/8/20 14:49, "AFRINIC Communication" <comms at afrinic.net<mailto:comms at afrinic.net>> escribió:



[Version en français ci-dessous]



Dear colleagues,

Further to its communique issued on 5 August 2020, AFRINIC wishes to inform its community that following its announcement regarding the holding of the Policy Development Working Group (“PDWG”) Co-Chair and NRO ASO-AC elections for the year 2020, it has considered all responses obtained in respect thereof.

Consequently, AFRINIC considers it appropriate to clarify, for the benefits of its community, the following:

(a) That the Public Policy Meeting (“PPM”) is convened by the AFRINIC Board of Directors pursuant to the provisions of articles 11.2 and 11.3 of the Bylaws;

[Jordi] This is wrong, and should be corrected. A RIR is only assisting the community in terms of PDP. It is up to the community to decide how this is done and what the community wants to be done by the RIR. The community can agree that the elections are handled by the AFRINIC board and that the board can delegate into a committee. That’s fine and I think is the correct way, but can’t be imposed to the community. Those articles should NOT be there. They don’t exist in any other RIR. It is a big mistake. I also fully support, that the PDP *must have* some special provisions to give the board some powers on:

1. Call for the PDP meetings.

2. Assist/manage the co-chair elections by means of the PDP decided procedure. If there is not a procedure, this is the community fault and thus the board should be able to decide how to do it.

3. Allow an appeal process (by the board or delegated into a committee), but following the PDP, not restricting it.

4. Ratify policies. Only policies that will clearly damage the RIR membership can’t be ratified and should be returned to the PDP for further discussion.

5. In emergency situations, adopt a policy *regarding the management of resources* (not the PDP), *which must be brought to the PDP back for the community consensus/endorsement* otherwise must be stopped.



[Jordi] In addition to that, the bylaws are discriminatory and CLEARLY against the ICP-2 and this is a *BIG* irregularity and breach of the ICANN empowerment assigned to AFRINIC. THIS MUST BE RESOLVED IMMEDIATELY. The section 3 of ICP-2 is clear in many paragraphs in regards to the bottom-up self-governance for setting local policies “accessible to all interested parties”. The bylaws, clearly contradict the PDP, and that should *not* happen.

(b) That in regard to the election of the PDWG Co-Chair and notwithstanding the fact same is held during the PPM, section 3.1 of the Consolidated Policy Manual (“CPM”) clearly and in no uncertain terms provides as follows: - “Internet number resource policies are distinctly separate from AFRINIC general business practices and procedures. General business practices and procedures are not within the purview of the Policy Development Process.

[Jordi] And that clearly means that the PDP, neither the bylaws have authorized the board to take over the elections. The elections of the co-chairs, as the co-chairs itself, are part of the PDP. Again, I agree that meanwhile we don’t have in the PDP an explicit procedure, it is just fine to allow the board to assist on that and manage the elections. BUT this should be corrected ASAP by the community.

(c) That in light of para (b) above, the election process applicable to the PDWG Co-Chair election does not form an integral part of the CPM and is thus a matter for the Board of Directors to determine;

[Jordi] I disagree. The chair position is a mandate of the PDP. Just look into other RIRs. Is the community the one that manages that. The board of each RIR is just delegated by the PDP to do that, as an oversight. And still note that I’m supporting, at the time being, the board decision on the way to do the next elections, but that’s different than confirming that this is a business of the board *unless* that task is delegated by the community to the board.



(d) That, consistent with the above and having considered the exceptional context of the COVID-19 pandemic, the Board of Directors recently resolved, inter-alia, that the forthcoming PPM will be held virtually and has even caused an Election Process 2020 to be published applicable to all elections to be held during the year 2020;

(e) That in so far as the role of the PDWG is concerned, the core responsibility of the latter is to discuss policy proposals via the Internet (mailing list) or in person (during face-to-face PPM). Hence, since time restrictions are prevalent for the policy discussions during the PPM, rough consensus of policy proposals is determined during the PPM by considering both online and on-site contributions. Final consensus is decided upon after consideration of the discussions in the Last Call period;

[Jordi] Fully agree here on the matter of time. It is ridiculous the time that was spent in the PPMs in previous meetings for elections. They should be from now on, regardless of the pandemic, electronic and open to non-on-site participants. HOWEVER, according to the actual PDP the consensus is determined only, according to the actual PDP “during the PPM”, and that’s why I’ve proposed a PDP change so it is explicitly clear that also the discussion on the list must be considered for the consensus.

(f) That the right attributed to its community to contribute to policy discussions by either subscribing to the rpd mailing list or participating in the discussions in the upcoming PPM by registering for and attending the online meeting is sacrosanct and AFRINIC hereby renews its commitment that it will continue to give full effect to the principles of Policy Development as stipulated in section 3.2 of the CPM;

(g) That, for the purposes of para (e) above, subscription to the AFRINIC rpd mailing list is considered as a step towards participation in the PDWG and AFRINIC undertakes to preserve this right so that no one who has recently subscribed to the rpd mail list will be debarred and/or ‘disenfranchised’ from participating in the Policy Development Process.

(h) For purposes of clarity, below are subscription numbers from January 2019 to 13 August 2020.



2019

Number

January

3

February

8

March

3

April

9

May

30

June

53

July

8

August

11

September

3

October

4

November

11

December

18

2020

January

1

February

13

March

7

April

2

May

5

June

9

July

177

August 13th 12:50 UTC

27

Current number of list subscribers

986



[Jordi] I think it is obviously suspicious that suddenly there is such big increase in the registration on the RPD once it is announced that there may be a need to do online elections, and considering that at that time there was not any open discussion on policy proposals or new versions of existing ones. So, once more, I support the board decision on the procedure for the electronic elections and limiting the participation for those that are registered several months up-front them.



On this note, AFRINIC encourages the PDWG to increase its engagement in the Policy Development Process through their active, substantial and constructive participation in developing resource policies that will help AFRINIC in its mission of managing Internet Number Resources for the African region.

Furthermore, AFRINIC would like to take this opportunity to renew its invitation to the AIS’20 meeting and recommend that the community follows all procedures put in place for their online registration in respect thereof.



Eddy Kayihura

CEO



……………………





Chers collègues,



Suite à son communiqué publié le 5 août 2020, l'AFRINIC souhaite informer sa communauté que suite à son annonce concernant la tenue des élections du co-président du groupe de travail sur l'élaboration des politiques ("PDWG") et de l'ASO-AC du NRO pour l'année 2020, elle a examiné toutes les réponses obtenues à cet égard.



En conséquence, AFRINIC considère qu'il convient de clarifier, pour le bénéfice de sa communauté, ce qui suit :



(a) Que la réunion de politique publique ("PPM") est convoquée par le Conseil d'administration de l'AFRINIC conformément aux dispositions des articles 11.2 et 11.3 des statuts ;



(b) En ce qui concerne l'élection du co-président du PDWG, et bien qu'elle ait lieu pendant la Réunion de politique publique, la section 3.1 du Consolidated Policy Manual ("CPM") prévoit clairement et sans ambiguïté ce qui suit : - "Les politiques en matière de ressources de numéros Internet se distinguent clairement des pratiques opérationnelles et des procédures générales d'AFRINIC, qui ne sont pas du resort du processus d'élaboration des politiques''.



c) Qu'à la lumière du paragraphe b) ci-dessus, le processus d'élection applicable à l'élection du coprésident du PDWG ne fait pas partie intégrante du CPM et donc est du ressort du conseil d'administration ;



(d) Que, conformément à ce qui précède et après avoir pris en compte le contexte exceptionnel de la pandémie COVID-19, le Conseil d'administration a récemment décidé, entre autres, que la prochaine réunion de politiques publiques se tiendra virtuellement et a même fait publier un processus pour les élections pour l'année 2020 applicable à toutes les élections devant se tenir en 2020 ;



e) Que, en ce qui concerne le rôle du PDWG, la responsabilité principale de ce dernier est de discuter des propositions politiques via Internet (liste de diffusion) ou en personne (lors de la réunion en face-à-face). Par conséquent, étant donné que le temps imparti aux discussions politiques pendant la réunion est limité, un consensus approximatif sur les propositions politiques sera déterminé pendant la réunion en tenant compte des contributions en ligne et sur place. Le consensus final sera décidé après examen des discussions durant la période du dernier appel ;



(f) que le droit attribué à sa communauté de contribuer aux discussions politiques, soit en s'inscrivant à la liste de diffusion rpd, soit en participant aux discussions de la prochaine Réunion de politiques publiques en s'inscrivant et en assistant à la réunion en ligne est sacro-saint et que l'AFRINIC renouvelle par la présente son engagement à continuer à donner plein effet aux principes d'élaboration des politiques comme stipulé dans la section 3.2 de la CPM ;



(g) Que, aux fins du paragraphe (e) ci-dessus, l'inscription à la liste de diffusion rpd d'AFRINIC est considérée comme une étape vers la participation au PDWG et AFRINIC s'engage à préserver ce droit afin qu'aucune personne qui s'est récemment inscrite à la liste de diffusion rpd ne soit exclue et/ou "privée" de sa participation au processus d'élaboration des politiques.



(h) Par souci de clarté, voici le nombre d'abonnement de janvier 2019 au 13 août 2020.





2019

Nombres

Janvier

3

Février

8

Mars

3

Avril

9

Mai

30

Juin

53

Juillet

8

Août

11

Septembre

3

Octobre

4

Novembre

11

December

18

2020

Janvier

1

Février

13

Mars

7

Avril

2

Mai

5

Juin

9

Juillet

177

Août 13 12:50 UTC

27

Nombre d'abonnements actuels

986





Sur cette note, AFRINIC encourage le PDWG à accroître son engagement dans le processus d'élaboration des politiques à travers leur participation active, substantielle et constructive dans l'élaboration des politiques de ressources qui contribueront à aider AFRINIC dans sa mission de gestion des ressources numériques Internet pour la région africaine.



En outre, AFRINIC voudrait saisir cette occasion pour renouveler son invitation à la réunion de l'AIS'20 et recommander que la communauté suive toutes les procédures mises en place pour leur inscription en ligne à cet égard.



Eddy Kayihura

CEO

_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list RPD at afrinic.net<mailto:RPD at afrinic.net> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com<http://www.theipv6company.com/>
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
RPD at afrinic.net<mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com<http://www.theipv6company.com/>
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.



_______________________________________________

RPD mailing list

RPD at afrinic.net<mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>

https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

--

Regards,



Dewole.

,

_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
RPD at afrinic.net<mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd





--

Christophe KANGAMUTIMA ZABIKA



**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
RPD at afrinic.net<mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
RPD at afrinic.net<mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/attachments/20200817/a9223823/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the RPD mailing list