[rpd] Proposal Update Received | IPv4 Inter-RIR Resource Transfers (Comprehensive Scope) | AFPUB-2019-IPv4-002-DRAFT02

[Owen DeLong]

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 20:59 , Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> Owen, I was under the impression this point had been overcome in the previous discussion when several people mentioned they would not agree to start if not after Phase 2, then the author adjusted the text to that and made it simpler and clear given that feedback.

> 


I agree that is an accurate summary of how the author chose to address the baseless statements made by some other participants in the discussion.

> You seem to be concerned with a scenario that doesn't exist or hardly can be supported with any evidence, at least NRO numbers don't support that there is any signal of organizations that will fall into what you are supposing. As said if there is *any* it is not that they will not be able to work until Phase 2, but they can still receive a fair amount of IP addresses (a /13) and keep working until transfers are implemented, so a quiet reasonable thing. Having to change the text for a possible non existent scenario is unnecessary in my view.

> 

Again, can you answer EITHER of my questions below with anything that supports a rationale for this phase 2 policy language?

> LACNIC (which has a much faster pace than Africa in address allocation) went Phase 2 and *just 2 years later* a Inter-RIR transfer policy reached consensus and is not know of any major issues that happened in the mean time. The case in Africa is even better than LACNIC because this proposal is being discussed upfront, so the gap will be much short to (again) a much shorter pace.

> 

I disagree. Multiple proposals were discussed in LACNIC prior to Phase 2 and they didn’t gain consensus. I’m not convinced this proposal will gain consensus even if we mollify those calling for Phase 2 limitations.

> There fairness you asked is in the fact they can still receive a /13 and the gap between consensus and Phase2 will be much shorter.

> 

I disagree. I see no fairness in any potential delay in the implementation of this policy and I don’t see that the proposed language has any possibility of being operative. It will just be anachronistic cruft left over in the CPM at the time of implementation. That’s just not a reasonable thing to do IMHO.

> And last, a change in the way you propose will not have any practical effects because will not be reciprocal to other RIRs until it enters Phase 2 and AfriNic is able to do outgoing as well, so why change the text for something unpractical ?

> 

Huh?
I’m saying delete all references to Phase 2 from the policy proposal. There’s no possibility of this proposal making it through the implementation process prior to Phase 2 being reached, so there’s no reason to preserve that non-operative language.

> Therefore I don't really think is worth concern about this detail now and why I consider the current text very appropriate.

> 

It will not be the first time we have agreed to disagree, but I strongly oppose putting useless cruft that has no operational effect into the CPM.

Owen


> Regards

> Fernando

> 

> On 13/11/2019 00:49, Owen DeLong wrote:

>> 

>> 

>>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 17:34 , Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> wrote:

>>> 

>>> On 12/11/2019 22:04, Owen DeLong wrote:

>>>> <clip>

>>>> I do not feel that 5.7.5 is needed. First, by the time this policy can be implemented, it’s extraordinarily unlikely that we will not already be in Phase 2. Second, even if that is not the case, at this point, there is no reason to prohibit organizations that wish to obtain resources via the transfer market from doing so.

>>> I think this is the most important part of the new version, actually without that I would never be able to support it and that was what many others also manifested in the previous discussion.

>> 

>> Let’s look at it rationally…

>> 

>> 1.	What’s the downside to allowing transfers prior to phase 2 starting given the other protections against anyone who does an outbound transfer ever receiving free pool resources?

>> [If you can actually show a real one, them perhaps I’ll support this, but absent that, I have to ask wtf?]

>> 

>> 2.	Even if this policy somehow miraculously gained consensus at the December meeting, we’re still looking at June or later by the time staff is able to implement it. Given the expectation of hitting Phase 2 in December projected from October, even if they’re off by 200%, that would still have Phase 2 hitting in April, a full 2 months prior to earliest possible policy implementation.

>> 

>>> It is a simple, fair and clear rule: "when Phase 2 starts", then there is no risk at all of it starting earlier than it should.

>> 

>> It’s a simple and clear rule. I don’t see the fairness.

>> 

>>> I do not believe there will be many if any cases that will require such big transfers as I do not believe any possible organization is able to justify more than a /13 *at once*. In a very remote hypothesis this is possible they can just receive the /13, work with it in the meantime and wait until Phase 2 kicks in (pretty soon) to be able to transfer whatever else. This is very reasonable, and makes it more simple with a single rule for all.

>> 

>> Yes, but what’s the point of putting language that will be a no-op by the time it is implemented into policy? It’s just cruft left over in the CPM that needs to get cleaned up later. Why not leave it out? There’s no benefit to having it.

>> 

>> Can you show a single benefit to having it other than the idea that it somehow mollifies people who don’t understand the rest of the policy proposal as written and feel that this provides some additional protection?

>>> Furthermore I don't think if changing that way it would be reciprocal to other RIRs because it would not be valid for outgoing from AfriNic. Therefore not worth concern about this.

>>> The current text is fine in my view.

>>> 

>> I’m not worried about the reciprocity issue here. You’re right, it’s a no-op on that. However, it’s also a no-op in general and I’m morally opposed to adding non-operative language to the CPM just because it makes someone feel good.

>> 

>> Owen

>> 

>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> <clip>

>>>> 

>>>> Owen

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 02:59 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:

>>>>> 

>>>>> Hi Owen,

>>>>>  

>>>>> As I already did that in other occasions for previous proposals, here is it.

>>>>>  

>>>>> Diff among v1 and v2 of this proposal:

>>>>> https://www.diffchecker.com/2LOOCZgm <https://www.diffchecker.com/2LOOCZgm>

>>>>>  

>>>>> Diff among actual policy text and this proposal (v2)

>>>>> https://www.diffchecker.com/471nF1uX <https://www.diffchecker.com/471nF1uX>

>>>>>  

>>>>> I will do the same later with other updated proposals.

>>>>>  

>>>>> Note that I’m already working in a v3, considering your inputs, as per the previous discussion in the list. Just holding it in case there are further comments.

>>>>>  

>>>>> Regards,

>>>>> Jordi

>>>>> 

>>>>> @jordipalet

>>>>> 

>>>>>  

>>>>> 

>>>>>  

>>>>>  

>>>>> El 12/11/19 4:00, "Owen DeLong" <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>> escribió:

>>>>>  

>>>>> I don’t know about anyone else, but I would find it very helpful if these announcements included a redline or other diff format showing the difference between the prior version of the proposal and the current one.

>>>>>  

>>>>> Owen

>>>>>  

>>>>> 

>>>>> 

>>>>>> On Nov 11, 2019, at 15:04 , Moses Serugo <moses.serugo at gmail.com <mailto:moses.serugo at gmail.com>> wrote:

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> Hello PDWG Members,

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> This is to notify you that the authors of the policy proposal named "IPv4 Inter-RIR Resource Transfers (Comprehensive Scope)" have submitted an updated version (Draft version 2 | AFPUB-2019-IPv4-002-DRAFT02) and now seek your comments and feedback.

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> The proposal contents are published at 

>>>>>> https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-ipv4-002-d2#proposal <https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-ipv4-002-d2#proposal>

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> Please take some time to go through the proposal contents and provide your feedback.

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> Thank you.

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> PDWG Co-chairs

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>>>>>  

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>>>>> 

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