[rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!

Fri Jun 28 13:03:50 UTC 2019

Again, can you please confirm if you have seen the slides and video?

What exactly are you missing?

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

El 28/6/19 14:44, "Noah" <noah at neo.co.tz> escribió:

Andrew

I can only work with numbers and I for sure know of how much space is yet to be put to use by resource members in our region and some of this is already being transferred within the region which is why I am keen on getting some statistics from AfriNIC about intra-rir transfers within Africa.

By the way, the soft-landing policy is not cast of stone, its subject to modification to allow for more space uptake if such space is returned to AfriNIC.

Absence of Jordi showing real statistics in terms of available IPv4 space from other regions into the AfriNIC region renders his policy unpopular to most members of this working group.

Show the numbers and lets stops believing. 

./noah

neo - network engineering and operations

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 2:28 PM Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

You’re asking for the impossible – because to get that you’d need to go to all the brokers (I assume)

As for it being returned to AfriNIC – Noah – wake up – aint no one gonna return it to AFRINIC – if anything they will sell it in region – and because we can’t buy elsewhere – there will be no competitive market in region – which will inflate the prices for the African’s buying it.

And return it to AFRINIC? What is that going to help when the soft-landing update iirc – though I could be wrong on this – please correct me if I am – would put returned space straight back into phase-2 – where people can’t get more than some ridiculously tiny amount of space every 2 years – so returned space will sit rotting and lying idle.  What’s the point of that?

Andrew

From: Noah <noah at neo.co.tz> 
Sent: Friday, 28 June 2019 14:17
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
Cc: RPD <rpd at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!

So Jordi,

I still oppose this policy with strongest terms possible. I still believe IPv4 space will leave our region so fast when holders of Idle space who are yet to put them to good use as was allocated/assigned will trade them for some dollars rather than return them to AfriNIC. What we need is a policy that would discourage IPv4 from being transferred out of the region because of attractive prices of IPv$ but rather encourage more space coming into the region.

We already have a transfer policy that can facilitate internal transfers withing our region and I am keen of getting a report from AfriNIC on how this is going.

@Jordi, please also share some statistical numbers of available IPv4 space that would actually come into our region so that we can work with figures rather than assumptions.

Noah

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 7:01 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:

Hi again Sylvain,

I’m very thankful for your inputs!

We need to make sure that others also participate!

See below in-line.

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

El 21/6/19 23:15, "Sylvain BAYA" <abscoco at gmail.com> escribió:

Hi all,

Le vendredi 21 juin 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> a écrit :

Hi Sylvain,

I want to thank you, I guess we won a “strong” contributor to policy discussions! (I recall your name from previous discussions, but you’re now more active, which is what I wish from every one). 

:-D ...please don't expose me too much Jordi ;-)

I'm just trying to do my best...i'm not any kind of expert :'-(

Now I realized that you were not on-site, pity!

 See below, in-line.

Saludos,

Jordi

@jordipalet

El 20/6/19 22:37, "Sylvain BAYA" <abscoco at gmail.com> escribió:

Hi all, 

Please see, inline, below...

Le jeudi 20 juin 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> a écrit :

Hi Sylvain,

Sorry the email was sent before I finished it …

Responding below, in-line.

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

El 20/6/19 15:05, "Sylvain BAYA" <abscoco at gmail.com> escribió:

Hi all,

Le jeudi 20 juin 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> a écrit :

As said, this text is redundant (see specific text below my signature), but I don't mind to have explicit text if this facilitate the community to reach consensus.

Here is my proposal, again, please comment about this ASAP, so we can submit a new version already, instead of waiting to be closer to the next meeting. This way we can ensure that we get on time the staff impact analysis, in case something else need to be amended.

"The Inter-RIR transfers will be automatically suspended in case the balance between IPv4 out-going and in-coming addresses becomes cero." 

Jordi,

...typos on “zero” ?

Yeah … my spelling checker often confuses English and Spanish!

Anyway, here is a better version, because this balance is actually “cero” at the start of the implementation, so the text may be misleading, we need to define . 

Alright !

I like the new visage of this policy proposal because i really appreciate the way you are leading the discussions around it. 

Believe me, that I always try to heard everybody position and accommodate as much as possible, my own thinking/knowledge and the text to that (or convincing other if I believe they have a wrong vision). This is the way to reach consensus. 

Go ahead on this way ! i declare my support for such an approach, because i'm personaly sharing a similar approach.

Hopefully other participants will also share it.

While contributing to this thread, what i want is to be sure that this policy proposal could be really beneficial to AFRINIC region|community.

Same as me, again, the right thing to do.

“The Inter-RIR transfers will only be enabled once AFRINIC enter into Exhaustion Phase 2 (5.4.3.2). The Inter-RIR transfers will be automatically suspended in case the number of out-going IPv4 addresses exceeds the in-coming ones by six consecutive months.”

This version is a good starting point. Thanks.

I understand it like this :

* This Policy Validity Starting Point : Exhaustion Phase 2

* Initial point : balance of zero (nothing in|out)

* First auto-stop point : when the in/out balance becomes down

..* After 06 consecutive months {seems to be not interesting for me}

..* Even 02 consecutive months is not really interesting, because we miss an #x amount (or %) of resource (IPv4) limit to not reach at any time (without any mention of #y consecutive months) to reduce an unwilling risk. 

This policy shall be able, maybe, to stop a transaction (in course) which could conduct us out of a specific low acceptable in/out balance. So think about it again please.

This is not possible, I believe, unless someone discovers a “magic way to write it down” (which I can’t see now). Anyway, I’m still trying to think something before ending this email … 

...quite difficult for sure :-)

It's simply confirming us that to reach the *goal* of this (and other) policy proposal, we need to think deeply on details. Other meaning : we need more active volunteers|participants engaged with sincere contributions.

*EXACTLY!* Meetings time is precious and we aren’t allowed to modify the text of the proposals on-site, we need inputs way ahead!

I’ve not personally been involved in transfers, but I understand the process and transfers don’t happen “in the second”. There are documents to review, justification to be reviewed by the two RIRs, contracts to be signed, payments to be done (via an escrow), etc. It is a matter of several days or weeks. 

Thanks for these clarifications.

It may happen that in the middle of a month, several “negotiations” for transfers are running, and some of them in one or the other direction may reach or not in time for the end of that month. That’s why I’m suggesting a number of months. 

...to my knowledge, to better text this situation (and reach the *goal*) we must considere that the transfer is started when the parties have sent a request to the staff. 

What we can also do is to add a new section with advices for those who will need to start a inter RIR transfer procedure. On that section, we shall explain why they must not take more than one (?), two or three months to complete the pre-process (b2b negociations). They shall know and understand the risk to come too late to the staff to request a transfer ; because the negociation phase took too much time... :-/

I don’t think this is possible. Transfers have a lot of “business talks” among the parties. Only once the parties have reached an agreement, they need to go into the process. You could do on the other way around, it can be a mix of both. I don’t think the community must provide a rule on that, because this has not been done in other RIRs. If we try to setup our own rule, then our policy will have mismatches with the other policies and then we may be in the situation that they are not reciprocal, or the existing procedures in the other regions need to be re-worked, why they are going to do it, now that we are the last one?.

If the staff tries to evaluate the transfers at a single point in time, it may be misleading as some operations in the opposite direction may be being processed. The RIRs may have an “alert” of a possible transfer, depending on the direction, I don’t know if the exiting coordination systems allow them to check those (this will sort out the problem), but still will not be precise, as some other folks may be “negotiating” a transfer and have not yet informed the relevant RIRs until the parties agree.

Ok, we need a clarification from the staff. But before that, i propose something below to address the problem...

If we stop the policy immediately the balance becomes “bad” for AFRINIC, then a transfer in the other direction will not be able to happen. You see the point.

Ok you are right ! But let me try other possibility|solution i see : are we still prioritising incoming transfers ? :-)

To be sure, i think we can include a similar (to the following) text (about transfer procedure) : 

“Initiators of a transfer must start the procedure earlier by submitting their request. The transfer procedure is concluded after a cycle of $four months, devided in two periods of $two months for each. Initiators submit their case to the staff and wait for the staff to give their conclusion at least $two months after the "submissions period" and not more than $four months (including the "verification period"). The staff will collect the cases (submissions|requests) during the "submissions period". The staff can start to study the cases immediately, after receiving them, until the end of the "verification period" which is coinciding with the next "submission period"; while collecting other cases. Those in line with the CPM (policy compliant) at the end of the correspondent "verification period". The staff should focus to the goal : keep the in/out balance exceding. Incoming transfer submissions shall be prioritised and treated separately.”

I don’t think this will work, as I just explained a few reasons above. In principle I will not support this.

With this bit of text, i'm trying to solve a problem you raised above.

It does, at least, the following : 

* To change the approach in considering that 

* We can considerably diminish the risk by allowing the staff to study the transfer submissions (cases) during the same dedicated "verifications period" (even just during $one month if possible) and 

* Inform all the requestors only after the "verifications period" 

* With the *goal* balance in mind :-)

* Special treathment for incoming transfers ;-)

* A cycle of four months within two equal periods for submissions and verifications  

* More control of the balance 

* Focus : *goal* balance

* ...

See below … it is not needed. I think, just you misunderstood my point 4.

We need to “take a bit of risk”, considering that the real risk, looking at the numbers I’ve presented is really low. 

I agree, but just a *bit of risk* :-)

I wasn't able to follow your first presentation during the PPM (Public Policy Meeting), just the Hijacking one. Please share the slides of all your policy proposal presentations.

And now I realize this is part of the problem for your questions. Please, pause this discussion until you’re able to see the video of my presentation and the slides! I guess then you may change a bit your view about the risk, etc.

I already asked the staff (previous email) to make sure they are published tomorrow. I think they deserve the break today :-)

Remember that “nobody” from AFRINIC is forced to sell. Who will sell? Those that for example, reduce or close the business, or those that deploy IPv6, etc.

 Ok it walk samely for incoming and outgoing transfers. Considering that we have a seller and a buyer on both side transfers.

Who will buy? Those that go to AFRINIC, ask for more, can’t get all what they need, and try to get the rest of their needs via transfers.

What is the logic here? Why ARIN is the major donator to all the other RIRs?

...to what i recall [1] they still have too much unused IPv4 addresses.

If we don’t take a risk, we lose.

...i'm ok with that, but let's try to find the lowest risk :-)

This means that if one month there are “more addresses going out”, it happens again the next month, and it happens again by a third month and so on, then is suspended.

...so monthly public reports should be needed (for the community to follow-up and for more transparency) ?

If yes, let's clearly state|text it also.

I believe there is already a public AFRINIC reporting of the Inter-RIR transfers, so we will see this reported ASAP any transfer is completed I think.

Can someone share an uri ?

I think we must insert this requirement to the relevant section of the CPM, if not existent.

If this is not the case (can please the staff confirm?), I fully agree (for both Inter and Intra-RIR) and will add a specific text so they are reported, not just monthly, but with each completed transfer.

You are welcome ! Thanks :-)

Which this web page, any member, the board, etc., can tell the staff at any point, if they don’t realize by themselves, “hey what is going on here? Are we good with the transfers?”.

Yes, transparency and more power to the community ;-)

I’ve also added a condition to make sure that this policy only starts once we are in the next exhaustion phase.

So, you shall consider that, if AFRINIC service|community doesn't gain anything in the balance this policy should not be needed...

And that should be clearly stated.

I agree with that, but I don’t think we need to put that in the policy text, this should be in the text of the policy justification.

...wasn't the point here. Apologize but English is not my first tongue. 

What i was (trying) advising|suggesting is to ensure to text it the clearest possible ; in order to remove any ambiguity. 

I'm glad that you have seen, by yourself, that there was a problem with the first zero state.

Got it, thanks! And nothing to excuse!

Note that in order to make it simpler, I've used a text that instead of talking about %, is stating that the balance of in/out is reached. This way we ensure that the total number of the "region IPv4 addresses" never can go down regarding the actual figures, so Africa never will lose addresses. Do you think this is good enough?

Ok after policing this, it seems to be necessary to clearly state, *“policily”*, that the staff must follow-up (automatically) the in/out balance, with regular (automated) public reports and a special (auto) stop report (for the zero state).

I'm not sure how to "policy-ze" this idea. Perhaps with a separate policy ?

I’m not completely sure to understand 100% what you mean, but let me try anyway: Staff is mandated to follow the policies. So, during the implementation the staff will make the necessary provisions so they get an alarm when the balance of in-coming vs out-going addresses becomes cero. It may be done automatically anyway, but at least they should get an “alarm”. The operational details about “how” to implement this are outside of the policy scope.

Ok i am in accord with the logic of separation between policy rules and their operational implementations. I don't want us to “policy-ze” the implementation phase of any policy :-)

But you probably miss something in my above suggestion. 

The point is that, if you don't clearly ask, via a policy, for a regular (public) report (for example) from the staff, you could not be sure to get it when it shall be needed. Because, without a specific policy provision, it will be just out of their duties...

Let’s try it again, based on all the discussion (the numbers are just to split the text now, they will be correctly placed in the relevant part of the policy proposal when we “reach consensus” about this text:

1.       Each time a transfer is completed, the relevant, non-confidential information will be automatically published in a specific web page, including at least: Date of the transfer, transferred addresses, source organization and RIR, destination organization and RIR.

2.       The Inter-RIR transfers will only be enabled once AFRINIC enter into Exhaustion Phase 2 (5.4.3.2).

3.       The Inter-RIR transfers will be automatically suspended in case the number of outgoing IPv4 addresses exceeds the incoming ones by six consecutive months.

4.       The staff can provisionally suspend any suspicious operation that creates a big unbalance against AFRINIC, until the board takes a decision.

See point 4. If there is any suspicious unbalance, the suspension temporary suspension of *that* operation protects our pool of addresses, for a few days (I guess the board in that case should call for a decision by email or by conference call), and meanwhile, it can be observed if other “incoming” operations will restore the balance.

Possible solution, thanks for the effort you produced above. But there is still more than acceptable risk on it (including point 4) ; because the next new transfer request can come after the *few* days of suspension.

The point here is that the staff is still able to suspend any suspicious operation. Not just one. Is not that clear my text? (any)

Please look how to also consider the alternative solution i have proposed above. I don't need you to keep that text as it is, but to use it to figure how it could be merged with yours and reduce the risk (no suspension with it).

__

[1]: MIT and their 8 million IPv4 addresses – https://www.techspot.com/news/69055-mit-unload-8-million-ipv4-addresses-fund-ipv6.html

Friendly,

--sb.

I really believe this is not needed, it can be done applying the bylaws (very recently ARIN board suspended in emergency a policy, so it is a good demonstration that this works even if is not in the policy) but I’m happy to keep this text if this means that we are more unconcerned this way.

What do you think? 

Thanks!

[...]

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